The Original Pentecostal Movement

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Dec 26, 2012
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Listen, the gifts were for the church (his body - not some assembly).
They still are for His body (not some assembly).
The Book of Acts never ended.
Neither is there a place, (or places), in the Holy Writ that announced the end of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
All the gifts are about ministering to the body(church) of Christ.
Sorry Rick,

The Bible quite clearly says they will cease.

1 Corinthians 13

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

The question has been and will continue to be when?
 
Sep 8, 2012
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Sorry Sarah,
Read I Cor. chapters 12 & 13 consecutively-(in context).
I did some work on this on a thread, perhaps it was this one.
Look it up.
What is love? (True love) - Agape, God's love.
Now, who needs hope? God? No.
Who need's faith? God? No.
Who IS love? God? Yes.
Now read I Cor. 12 & 13 in order.
Then tell me what is done away with, why, and how? - (Should be a piece O' Cake for you)
 
Dec 26, 2012
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Sorry Sarah,
Read I Cor. chapters 12 & 13 consecutively-(in context).
I did some work on this on a thread, perhaps it was this one.
Look it up.
What is love? (True love) - Agape, God's love.
Now, who needs hope? God? No.
Who need's faith? God? No.
Who IS love? God? Yes.
Now read I Cor. 12 & 13 in order.
Then tell me what is done away with, why, and how? - (Should be a piece O' Cake for you)
Rick,

We have been around this block before. But I do have question for you.

Take two both saying their Christians which one is the fruits of the spirit?

Is the one who throws contempt,insults,barbs and jabs showing the fruits of the spirit?
Or is the one that does not return the contempt,insults,jabs and barbs?
 
Sep 8, 2012
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Rick,

We have been around this block before. But I do have question for you.

Take two both saying their Christians which one is the fruits of the spirit?

Is the one who throws contempt,insults,barbs and jabs showing the fruits of the spirit?
Or is the one that does not return the contempt,insults,jabs and barbs?
What are jabs? (The gifts are dead?)
What are barbs? (Those who live in them are mad?)
What is contempt? (Posting T.V. circuses as fact?)
Finally, what are insults? (Denying the power of the Holy Ghost? Calling men of God members of the Ku Klux Klan?)


You tell me.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
Near it? My friend, we are already in it, at least in the front of it.And you are right about the deception. It is in every denomination. But why is only the Pentecostals & Charismatics being boxed into a stereotyped box? Why is it the others are ignored as if they don't exist? The answer is here:
I am assuming that the reason for this thread lies within the same reason another denominational banging thread was started. Namely, pride of that religion and in defense of that denomination.

I think it would be wise to understand the roots of one's denomination. For sure, I did not know that the founding fathers of Pentecostalism thought they were Elijah. If they were, then were is Christ, as He appeared under the first harbinger, John the Baptist? If the root started out with lies, then how far has it spoiled the stock? But then again, it is not the denomination which saves, but truly, it is one's faith in the blood of the Christ.

I have yet to see a perfect denomination. And I dare not to throw the first stone. But when it appears the gift of demonic spirits is the resulting fruit of a particular root, then my Brother, I am led to consider what is being presented and compare it to Scripture. It is hard for me to accept that God would have us acting beastly at the appearance of the Holy Spirit. Besides, we constantly have the indwelling Spirit and never once has my spirit acted beastly. So, why would it when it comes to Him raining down on a congregation?

I do not defend any denomination, but when I see something awry, I give it my attention. And out of love and an attempt to show others, I try to point out the danger, as I see certain ones also doing the same in their own way.

Cfultz3, these 2 movements are the last 2 true ones before the judgement. What then is Satan trying to do to them from within & without? Just what that scripture says.
Then, by all means, let us snatch as many as we can from the flame. Time is often wasted defending one's denomination. If one is assured of his salvation by the Spirit, then let his faith (denomination) be between him and God. Time is short. Why waste defending men's theological thoughts?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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The Book of Acts never ended.
nifty:)

it's true, the Book is made alive to us, by the Spirit, as we read of The Promise, in History.

but rick - did The Acts of The Apostles (the actual title of the Book) end?

where are the Apostles now?

are you an apostle?
no, because - you were not an eye-witness of Him in His Resurrection.

...

did the Acts of Moses come to an end?
how about The Acts of Elijah?
what about The Acts Jesus performed in history in Israe,l that we read about?

you're not saying Jesus is walking the earth in Judea today are you?

nooo, we know He was taken up to Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God now.

does that mean He isn't God?
or that He isn't acting in power,
or that we don't receive the Holy Spirit,
or that His Word is not performing exactly what He said it would?

course not - right? why are the Acts of the Apostles supposed to be normative today?
we know what is claimed today is nothing like what they did.
so it's something else...not the Acts of The Apostles continuing...

like....why is the Book of The Acts of The Apostles open-ended and continuing exactly like it was 2000 years ago, yet we don't expect Moses to come and lead us anywhere....or to see St. John on Patmos today...or do we (?)
 
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Dec 26, 2012
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What are jabs? (The gifts are dead?)
What are barbs? (Those who live in them are mad?)
What is contempt? (Posting T.V. circuses as fact?)
Finally, what are insults? (Denying the power of the Holy Ghost? Calling men of God members of the Ku Klux Klan?)


You tell me.
You completely ignored what I said. Go back and read what I actually said.

Parham was a racist it is why the Pentecostals had their first split. It why the first split was along black and white lines. That is FACT and no matter how much it's distasteful to you it's FACT and you can't change it. Parham was a member of the KKK that's fact. It's part of the history you can escape from.


 
Sep 8, 2012
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Read it:

Acts 28:30-31


King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]30 [/SUP]And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Contrast and compare to the other sixty five books.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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My goodness! don't confuse them with the Bible! :)
which known human (gentile) language(s) did you receive?:)

did you also receive the gift of translating the actual knowable Gospel message from one known human language to the other?

very cool....travel must be exciting for you.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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You completely ignored what I said. Go back and read what I actually said.

Parham was a racist it is why the Pentecostals had their first split. It why the first split was along black and white lines. That is FACT and no matter how much it's distasteful to you it's FACT and you can't change it. Parham was a member of the KKK that's fact. It's part of the history you can escape from.


No I didn't, you are wrong.
You need to understand that you are reading things that are not true.
First, you said he was the preacher of the Azusa Street Revivals. No, William Seymour was.
Second, you said that he was a member of the KKK. - Again, you are flat out wrong.
He-(Charles Parham), considered the pouring out of tongues as a 'last ditch' renewal of the gifts, to preach the gospel to ethnicities in their native tongue. This is a thing a KKK member would not do.

- - Listen, wherever you got your information it was wrong.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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No I didn't, you are wrong.
You need to understand that you are reading things that are not true.
First, you said he was the preacher of the Azusa Street Revivals. No, William Seymour was.
Second, you said that he was a member of the KKK. - Again, you are flat out wrong.
He-(Charles Parham), considered the pouring out of tongues as a 'last ditch' renewal of the gifts, to preach the gospel to ethnicities in their native tongue. This is a thing a KKK member would not do.

- - Listen, wherever you got your information it was wrong.
Worship at 312 Azusa Street was frequent and spontaneous with services going almost around the clock. Among those attracted to the revival were not only members of the Holiness Movement, but also Baptists, Mennonites, Quakers, andPresbyterians.[SUP][14][/SUP] An observer at one of the services wrote these words:
No instruments of music are used. None are needed. No choir- the angels have been heard by some in the spirit. No collections are taken. No bills have been posted to advertise the meetings. No church organization is back of it. All who are in touch with God realize as soon as they enter the meetings that the Holy Ghost is the leader.[SUP][8][/SUP]
The Los Angeles Times was not so kind in its description:
Meetings are held in a tumble-down shack on Azusa Street, and the devotees of the weird doctrine practice the most fanatical rites, preach the wildest theories and work themselves into a state of mad excitement in their peculiar zeal. Colored people and a sprinkling of whites compose the congregation, and night is made hideous in the neighborhood by the howlings of the worshippers, who spend hours swaying forth and back in a nerve racking attitude of prayer and supplication. They claim to have the "gift of tongues" and be able to understand the babel.[SUP][5][/SUP]
Charles Parham was also sharp in his criticism:
Men and women, white and blacks, knelt together or fell across one another; a white woman, perhaps of wealth and culture, could be seen thrown back in the arms of a big 'buck nigger,' and held tightly thus as she shivered and shook in freak imitation of Pentecost. Horrible, awful shame![SUP][5][/SUP]
:Azusa Street Revival - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Azusa Street Revival

There are two men who are credited with the Azusa Street Revival...Charles Fox Parham and William Joseph Seymour. They became acquainted with each other in 1905 when Seymour traveled to Houston, Texas and attended a Black Holiness Congregation that was pastured by Lucy Farrow. Lucy Farrow was a former slave and the niece of the abolitionist Frederick Douglass. She was living in Kansas City and served as a governess and cook for the evangelist Charles Fox Parham. William Seymour became the interim Pastor for the Holiness Congregation in Houston. Lucy Farrow, along with Charles Parham, returned to Houston. There Lucy testified of her spiritual experience and Holy Ghost Baptism which was evidenced by speaking in tongues.



Azusa (Asusa) Street Revival - Birth of the Pentecostal Movement - Becker Bible Studies Library


And how much more do you want?

 
Dec 26, 2012
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How about another

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit

Parham visited the revival at Azusa Street Mission in October 1906. After arriving at the mission, he observed the service from the rear of the building. He then pushed his way through the crowd and entered the pulpit. There, he shook Seymour’s hand and spoke after Seymour invited him to do so. Parham said, “God is sick at His stomach” due to “animism”.

The word animism was Parham’s description of the enthusiastic worship he had witnessed. It was a racist charge that condemned the African roots of African-Americans. During this time period, Caucasian-American evangelicals frequently assumed much African-American church worship was a combination of Christian ideas and African animistic practices and beliefs.

In addition to the emotional display of worship, the mixing of the races disgusted Parham. He wrote,

“I have seen meetings where all crowded around the altar and laying hands across one another like hogs, blacks and whites mingling; this should be enough to bring a blush of shame to devils, let alone equals and yet all this was charged to the Holy Spirit…”.
Parham considered African-Americans at Azusa Street Mission to be out of their “place”. He believed Noah’s flood was God’s wrath for the mixing of the races and Caucasians to be distant descendants of the Lost Tribe of Israel. Parham was also disgusted because many persons [claiming Holy Ghost baptism] spoke “no languages at all”, but chattered, jabbered and sputtered.[SUP]38[/SUP]
After he preached three times at the mission, Seymour’s followers asked Parham to leave. Parham then opened services[SUP]39[/SUP] in a local Women’s Christian Temperance Union building. Attendees to these services included Caucasian-Americans who shared Parham’s racial prejudice.[SUP]40[/SUP] These services were short lived. They failed to alter the course of the move of God at Azusa Street Mission.[SUP]41[/SUP]

The Outpouring of the Holy Ghost at Azusa Street Mission
 
Sep 8, 2012
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Again with wilkipepia.
Let us now join the 'Holy Congregation of Satan'; listen Sarah, a newspaper writer called William Seymour 'old Cyclops' because he had a glass eye.
How would you like it if you were called 'that ole' transvestite', that 'Cristopher-Chrissy'?
Do you hear me?

It never ceases to amaze me how christians will go to the devil for information.
If Jesus was resurrected one hundred years ago the newspapers would have read - 'Strange Lunatic's Followers Rob His Grave'.
How do I know? It's recorded in the gospels that the popular myth was just that. - Spread abroad by the powers of the day. - (Read it)
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
How about another

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit

Parham visited the revival at Azusa Street Mission in October 1906. After arriving at the mission, he observed the service from the rear of the building. He then pushed his way through the crowd and entered the pulpit. There, he shook Seymour’s hand and spoke after Seymour invited him to do so. Parham said, “God is sick at His stomach” due to “animism”.

The word animism was Parham’s description of the enthusiastic worship he had witnessed. It was a racist charge that condemned the African roots of African-Americans. During this time period, Caucasian-American evangelicals frequently assumed much African-American church worship was a combination of Christian ideas and African animistic practices and beliefs.

In addition to the emotional display of worship, the mixing of the races disgusted Parham. He wrote,

“I have seen meetings where all crowded around the altar and laying hands across one another like hogs, blacks and whites mingling; this should be enough to bring a blush of shame to devils, let alone equals and yet all this was charged to the Holy Spirit…”.
Parham considered African-Americans at Azusa Street Mission to be out of their “place”. He believed Noah’s flood was God’s wrath for the mixing of the races and Caucasians to be distant descendants of the Lost Tribe of Israel. Parham was also disgusted because many persons [claiming Holy Ghost baptism] spoke “no languages at all”, but chattered, jabbered and sputtered.[SUP]38[/SUP]
After he preached three times at the mission, Seymour’s followers asked Parham to leave. Parham then opened services[SUP]39[/SUP] in a local Women’s Christian Temperance Union building. Attendees to these services included Caucasian-Americans who shared Parham’s racial prejudice.[SUP]40[/SUP] These services were short lived. They failed to alter the course of the move of God at Azusa Street Mission.[SUP]41[/SUP]

The Outpouring of the Holy Ghost at Azusa Street Mission
As much as I dislike the Pentecostal movement, I think there is one main theme everyone is missing, in the midst of all these threads about exposing each movement. Each movement has a very messed up beginning to some extent. Yet the dirty beginnings only get held against the movement one disagrees with.

If one is a Lutheran then they ignore Luther's anti-semitism. If one is a Calvinist, they forget Calvin's murder. If one is a Pentecostal then they dismiss Parham.

If you're going to invalidate an entire movement because of shady beginnings, then you most likely will have to leave the movement you're in due to shady beginnings too.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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It's a free gift.....but only to those that live in obedience to Him.
Acts 5:32 (KJV) [SUP]32 [/SUP]And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
well, right there in The Acts of The Apostles, it is said "we are his witnesses of these things" < meaning them.
they witnessed those things.

and Who else is said to be a witness?

the Holy Spirit.

the Holy Spirit is given...to those who obey the Gospel...well what is it - the Gospel Israel first heard?:

Acts 2
22“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

24God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25For David says concerning him,

“‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
my flesh also will dwell in hope.
27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’

29“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

33Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

34For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your footstool.’

36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”


:)


37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

....


This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.



The Fellowship of the Believers
42And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. 43And awed came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles.

44And all who believed were together and had all things in common. 45And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. 46And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, 47praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.



well, that looks like it was a specific series of events, in history, very real, and without which we have no CHURCH....the church having been built on the FOUNDATION of the prophets and the Apostles (who did many mighty Acts), with Jesus the Cornerstone.

Jesus' Acts on earth are recorded, but is He walking in Judea in Person today?
or did the Plan move forward?:)

Peter isn't standing in Jerusalem today saying this:

Acts 2
Peter’s Sermon at Pentecost
14But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel.....


he quotes Joel, who foretold of Pentecost, at Jerusalem, in Judea...a long time ago.
meaning, he was saying that Joel's prophecy had come to pass...then. right then.

all that Miraculous activity, just as foretold by all the prophets...came to pass.
it was the Promise. the disciples, who were Christ's witnesses, became the Apostles, who also performed mighty Acts, as Luke said.

Luke said:

Luke 1
1In my former book, Theophilus, [The Gospel of Luke - which had an end] I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

3After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command:


“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”


and so didn't it happen just that way?
according to Luke it did.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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The reformation was more about the spreading of the Word through the printing press than anything else.
There were thousands of leaflets passed out containing the objections by Martin Luther to the practice of 'Indulgences' to the commoners. (First time ever)
Also, neither Charles Parham, nor William Seymour had anything to do with the gifts 'reappearing'.
- From the beginning of the church all of those gifts were in effect up until and past those revivals.
- - If you read the history of the church you will see it.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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As much as I dislike the Pentecostal movement, I think there is one main theme everyone is missing, in the midst of all these threads about exposing each movement. Each movement has a very messed up beginning to some extent. Yet the dirty beginnings only get held against the movement one disagrees with.

If one is a Lutheran then they ignore Luther's anti-semitism. If one is a Calvinist, they forget Calvin's murder. If one is a Pentecostal then they dismiss Parham.

If you're going to invalidate an entire movement because of shady beginnings, then you most likely will have to leave the movement you're in due to shady beginnings too.
is this about invalidating due to shady beginnings? - if that's the case, do we have to go back to Rome?

who would care about what Parham did or said, if the stuff he said or did or claimed (since he's gone) didn't affect the church directly today?

imo the movement invalidates itself. it's like a no-win situation to discuss the movement if you can't trace the origins of the doctrine....which pretty much has to be done by tracing the figures who taught it.

you could do it just with dates or descriptions....i guess.
that's the continuationist / cessationist debate.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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Again with wilkipepia.
Let us now join the 'Holy Congregation of Satan'; listen Sarah, a newspaper writer called William Seymour 'old Cyclops' because he had a glass eye.
How would you like it if you were called 'that ole' transvestite', that 'Cristopher-Chrissy'?
Do you hear me?

It never ceases to amaze me how christians will go to the devil for information.
If Jesus was resurrected one hundred years ago the newspapers would have read - 'Strange Lunatic's Followers Rob His Grave'.
How do I know? It's recorded in the gospels that the popular myth was just that. - Spread abroad by the powers of the day. - (Read it)
Did you read the others which were not wikipedia?

You no idea what I have been called already so......

I have,seen it and still deal with those who say it's a myth sooo......

Now if you other information to the contrary I would like to hear it.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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No I didn't, you are wrong.
You need to understand that you are reading things that are not true.
First, you said he was the preacher of the Azusa Street Revivals. No, William Seymour was.
Second, you said that he was a member of the KKK. - Again, you are flat out wrong.
He-(Charles Parham), considered the pouring out of tongues as a 'last ditch' renewal of the gifts, to preach the gospel to ethnicities in their native tongue. This is a thing a KKK member would not do.

- - Listen, wherever you got your information it was wrong.
rick - did he turn out to be wrong? about the native tongue thing?
that's really the point isn't it?

trying to sort out the histories without help from those who know it, well....that's how it goes i guess.

i personally don't care if he was a racist (he's gone) - was he wrong about tongues...that's what i care about today....don't you?

yes...he was wrong.
so we ought to be able say - okay - dude was wrong. i don't care that much about his personal sin.

he was wrong....so what happened next is the question. instead of somebody correcting the tongues thing, they reformed the idea - right? and it became some new prayer language or whatever.

that's the point.....trying to find out WHEN that happened.
this is ridiculous.

why the obfuscation?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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these 2 movements are the last 2 true ones before the judgement. What then is Satan trying to do to them from within & without? Just what that scripture says.
pentecostalism & charismatic renewal are the last 2 true movements before the judgment?

where are there said to be 2 movements (in the last days before the judgement)? where?