What is really being said???

[StandStrong]

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”


Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


on face value these two verses seem to contradict one another. In my studies i have found that when scriptures appears to contradict then it means that there is a deeper meaning that i am just not seeing.

So in light of that i am asking what is this really saying? On one scripture it says that if you retain the sins of any they will be retained. the next shows the importance of forgiveness saying very plainly that if you do not forgive others the God WILL NOT forgive you? so how can it be both ways?

 

[Delija]

R u a Protestant?
Do u read Bible?
Holy Spirit will tell u.
Bible explain Bible.
Find another verse and forgot this one.
Be blessed.

 

[StandStrong]

R u a Protestant?
Do u read Bible?
Holy Spirit will tell u.
Bible explain Bible.
Find another verse and forgot this one.
Be blessed.

In other words you don't know and instead of studying for a deeper understanding you ignore it and move on??

 

[mwFerguson_MTh]

... these two verses seem to contradict one another.... how can it be both ways?

Have you consulted your pastor or priest? Have you researched these verses in the Bible commentary(-ies) preferred by your denomination?

 

[StandStrong]

look i posted this thread to gain guidance and understanding of the verses. If you don't know then don't post.

We are ALL called to reason the scriptures not just a pastor

 

[Graybeard]

R u a Protestant?
Do u read Bible?
Holy Spirit will tell u.
Bible explain Bible.
Find another verse and forgot this one.
Be blessed.

Have you consulted your pastor or priest? Have you researched these verses in the Bible commentary(-ies) preferred by your denomination?

Totally uncalled for!......if you don't like the thread then why not just stay out.....THIS IS THE BIBLE DISCUSSION FORUM you know...

 

[J-Kay-2]

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”


Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


on face value these two verses seem to contradict one another. In my studies i have found that when scriptures appears to contradict then it means that there is a deeper meaning that i am just not seeing.

So in light of that i am asking what is this really saying? On one scripture it says that if you retain the sins of any they will be retained. the next shows the importance of forgiveness saying very plainly that if you do not forgive others the God WILL NOT forgive you? so how can it be both ways?

Regarding 1st scripture :

Only God can forgive sins, and Christ, being God, has the power to do so as well, but He never communicated any such power to His disciples, nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves. The key to understanding the meaning of John 20:23 lies in the previous two verses: “Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’” He sent them, as He is sending us, to bring the good news of the way to salvation and heaven to the whole world. Jesus was leaving the earth physically but promised God would be with them in the person of the Holy Spirit living in them. As they proclaimed the gospel, they could honestly tell people who believed in that message that their sins were forgiven, and they could honestly tell people that did not believe in the message that their sins were not forgiven and that they stand condemned in God’s eyes. Jesus said, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36).

Re: Second scripture:
I apply it to being a personal issue where sin and forgiveness is implied.
It is harsh to have the knowledge we are unable to be forgiven when we
can't forgive another. ~
Good Study Topic
​

 

[twofeet]

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”


Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


The first one, in light of the second one I would read as " if you do not forgive then sin remains in you because you are commanded to forgive. And if you forgive then they are truly forgiven by you (but they are not forgiven by God unless they repent).

That's just my understanding of it....but to walk in forgiveness is definitely a better option that holding unforgivesness towards someone regardless of how the first scripture can be understood. Better to be walking in Gods love and forgiveness instead of trying to find loop holes in scripture to say we dont have to forgive right?

 

[Delija]

In other words you don't know and instead of studying for a deeper understanding you ignore it and move on??

Don't know should i tell u what am i doing in this situation or not..Many eyes reading this.Some of them can't wait to attack me...
But as Orthodox Christian am reading Holy Fathers commentaries on Bible verses.
Orthodoxy or death!Glory to God for all things!
IC XC NI KA

 

[LT]

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”


Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


on face value these two verses seem to contradict one another. In my studies i have found that when scriptures appears to contradict then it means that there is a deeper meaning that i am just not seeing.

So in light of that i am asking what is this really saying? On one scripture it says that if you retain the sins of any they will be retained. the next shows the importance of forgiveness saying very plainly that if you do not forgive others the God WILL NOT forgive you? so how can it be both ways?

These two passages are not contradictory at all, because they are dealing with separate issues.

One verse says that if you don't forgive others, then you will not be forgiven yourself. This is not speaking to people who are yet saved in through the Blood of Christ, but to the unsaved, and is dealing with their responsibility for sins. Jesus was showing that even holding a grudge is sin, which was not shown plainly in the Old Testament. If someone is saved by their trust in Christ, they are forgiven regardless of their lack of forgiveness, just like they are forgiven of any other sin.

The other is talking to the disciples, who are already saved. Jesus was giving them the power to forgive the sins of others. This is a well debated topic, but most agree that our ability to forgive sin is through the Holy Spirit and the Gospel. The disciples were given the Gospel, which had the ability to forgive sins. If they "retained" the gospel, then who could be saved by it?

 

[chatter23]

Regarding 1st scripture :

Only God can forgive sins, and Christ, being God, has the power to do so as well, but He never communicated any such power to His disciples, nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves. The key to understanding the meaning of John 20:23 lies in the previous two verses: “Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’” He sent them, as He is sending us, to bring the good news of the way to salvation and heaven to the whole world. Jesus was leaving the earth physically but promised God would be with them in the person of the Holy Spirit living in them. As they proclaimed the gospel, they could honestly tell people who believed in that message that their sins were forgiven, and they could honestly tell people that did not believe in the message that their sins were not forgiven and that they stand condemned in God’s eyes. Jesus said, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36).

Re: Second scripture:
I apply it to being a personal issue where sin and forgiveness is implied.
It is harsh to have the knowledge we are unable to be forgiven when we
can't forgive another. ~
Good Study Topic
​

Yes, I agree, we cannot forgive, but we can be sorry if we resented those who have harmed us. In that sense, we are forgiven.

 

[StandStrong]

Don't know should i tell u what am i doing in this situation or not..Many eyes reading this.Some of them can't wait to attack me...

I follow no theology or doctrine of church. I study only the Bible and what it says. if i use commentaries it is under the understanding that they were written and influenced by man. I try very hard not to come across as attacking anyone else for their own personal beliefs. thank you for additions to the thread.

Better to be walking in Gods love and forgiveness instead of trying to find loop holes in scripture to say we dont have to forgive right?

You are correct living in the love of God and forgiveness is very important. I merely brought up the scripture to try to gain a deeper understanding of what John was trying to say there. not really trying to find a loophole for unforgiveness. Thank you for your elightening on the passages.

 

[StandStrong]

Thanks L.T. at first i thought it was about two seperate topics but i could not be sure. So thanks again for showing me your understanding

 

[Yahshua]

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”


Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


on face value these two verses seem to contradict one another. In my studies i have found that when scriptures appears to contradict then it means that there is a deeper meaning that i am just not seeing.

So in light of that i am asking what is this really saying? On one scripture it says that if you retain the sins of any they will be retained. the next shows the importance of forgiveness saying very plainly that if you do not forgive others the God WILL NOT forgive you? so how can it be both ways?

"Give and ye shall receive"

Luke 6:38

Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

"Judge and be Judged"

Matthew 7:1-3

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why behold thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but consider not the beam that is in thine own eye?

"Measure for Measure"

I believe the two passages you posted actually work together; two sides of the same coin. Give whatever you want to get from God in return. If you want mercy, give mercy. If you want forgiveness, forgive others. If you judge others (by not forgiving someone's sin against you), God will judge you with the same measure (and he will remember a similar sin you've committed against him).

The Lord's prayer reads "...and forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE those who've trespassed against us..." because God is perfectly fair justice.

If we understand that "all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory" then we are compelled to humble ourselves and forgive others, because it's only by God's mercy that our OWN sins are forgiven. Christ gave a parable explaining this:

Parable of the Unforgiving Servant

Matthew 18:21-35

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 70 X 7.[a]

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[c] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

The son of man has authority to forgive (or not forgive) sins...and what you do with that authority will likewise be recorded in heaven.

 

[Delija]

I follow no theology or doctrine of church. I study only the Bible and what it says. if i use commentaries it is under the understanding that they were written and influenced by man. I try very hard not to come across as attacking anyone else for their own personal beliefs. thank you for additions to the thread.

I didn't mean on u friend,but someone alse.
However,i would like to ask u,what will u chose as truth in a bunch of personal commentaries which u will get here?

 

[StandStrong]

I didn't mean on u friend,but someone alse.
However,i would like to ask u,what will u chose as truth in a bunch of personal commentaries which u will get here?

good question instead of seeking truth in a large portion of personal commentaries i take the passage that they are relating and find my answers that way. so when they reference a passage i study the passage to see if it is really talking about the same topic.

ah and i understand that you weren't talking about anyone in paticular that you would name. I was more answering the question that you asked earlier when you asked if I was protastant

 

[Delivery]

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”


Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


on face value these two verses seem to contradict one another. In my studies i have found that when scriptures appears to contradict then it means that there is a deeper meaning that i am just not seeing.

So in light of that i am asking what is this really saying? On one scripture it says that if you retain the sins of any they will be retained. the next shows the importance of forgiveness saying very plainly that if you do not forgive others the God WILL NOT forgive you? so how can it be both ways?

The way I see it, these verses do not contradict each other because they're talking about 2 different subjects. We have to take each of them in context. First John 20:23:
20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Ok, I also included verse 22. This is after Jesus rose from the dead and He's instructing His disciples after appearing to them and before ascending up to Heaven in a cloud. Here He's actually talking about witnessing and "going into all the world to preach the gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15) And He's basically saying that those who believe and get saved will have their sins forgiven and those who don't will not be forgiven and will be damned.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)

Mathew 6:15 Is talking about being judgmental toward people.

6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

We're all sinners and deserve punishment for our sins so what the Lord is saying is that none of us have a right to be judgmental of anybody else for their sins because we're all guilty before God. That's why we need Jesus to save us. So He's saying we need to have a forgiving attitude towards others in their sins, just like we want to God to forgive our sins.

So the difference between to 2 verses is, John 20:23 is talking about people your witnessing to either receiving Jesus and forgivness for their sins, or rejecting Jesus and, therefore, not receiving God's forgiveness. Mathew 6:15 is about you being forgiving of others in their sins, just like you want God to forgive yours.

You can still have a forgiving attitude towards some one who rejects Jesus. I've been learning more and more that the person who preaches Jesus can never really be a hypocrite even if his personal sample isn't exactly up to par. Because when you preach Jesus you're not condemning people for their sins. You're telling people how to be saved from their sins. A hypocrite is somebody who condemns and criticizes others when they also are just as bad. But when you preach Jesus you can acknowledge, "yes, I'm also a sinner, but Jesus has cleansed me from all my sins and forgiven me, and He can do the same for you. Just repent of your sins and believe in Him and ask His forgiveness and He'll give you His free gift of eternal life." There's no hypocrisy in that because you're not condemning them for their sins, your telling them how to be saved from their sins.

 

[didymos]

Everything's 'influenced by men:' even translation is interpretation. You cannot really study the Bible 'for what it is,' unless you can study it from the greek and the hebrew. All translations were influenced by a theology of some sort, namely of the translators. If you can't study the Bible from the original texts the best thing to do is to look a specific passage up in several translations, from different traditions. Knowing the (historical) context of passages is also important, there commentaries come in handy. Ofcourse, those were also written with a specific theology in mind, so there it's also a good idea to consult different sources.
Any study of the Bible should be preceded by a prayer for enlightenment of the Holy Spirit too, actually that's the most important thing of all.

 

[StandStrong]

Everything's 'influenced by men:' even translation is interpretation. You cannot really study the Bible 'for what it is,' unless you can study it from the greek and the hebrew. All translations were influenced by a theology of some sort, namely of the translators. If you can't study the Bible from the original texts the best thing to do is to look a specific passage up in several translations, from different traditions. Knowing the (historical) context of passages is also important, there commentaries come in handy. Ofcourse, those were also written with a specific theology in mind, so there it's also a good idea to consult different sources.
Any study of the Bible should be preceded by a prayer for enlightenment of the Holy Spirit too, actually that's the most important thing of all.

first i never said i only studied one translation. Second historic context is not as important as most make it out to be.

Illustration of my point:
Jesus is refered to as the light in the dark
most historic context refers to when the jews would attach lanterns to the bottom of their staffs when walking in the dark.
knowing this does not stregthen nor weaken my understanding the Jesus is the Light.
Third the spoken language of greek, i think its greek, is emphasised with hand gestures and vocal enuciations. even learning to read greek can not teach me those two things. and finally without the Holy Spirit to guide us through His word and teach us, no matter what translation we read it would all be worldly knowledge not Spiritual and thus fruitless. so yea i can agree with the last statement of yours.

 

[StandStrong]

As far as the original topic is seems that most elate the two passages as two seperate topics.

John 20:23 to the spreading of the gospel and teaching the repentance of sins. Which would mean that it is not actually us who forgives or retains the sins of those whom accept or reject the gospel but rather the Holy Spirit which moves us to spread the gospel in the first place.

Matthew 6:15 as the actual act of forgiving one who sins against you thus it is on a personal level so that we have forgiven them and now it is between them and God.


in this light it does make better sense. so thank you all for your wonderful insight and understanding