Problems with the Missouri Synod Lutheran Chrurch.

[zone]

Lutherans believe that Baptism is for the living only, however, God may have created a means to save those who were not baptized or not able to be baptized.......This hope is based on the fact that God has shown himself capable of saving without baptism and may still continue to do so. - LCMS Church Information Center

okay then

doubt it....but anyways.

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

A Quote by David J. Stewart
Martin Luther Taught the Baptismal Regeneration Heresy

Contrary to what most Christians have been misled to believe by handed-down tradition, Martin Luther was an unsaved reprobate. Just because Luther once stated that the just shall live by faith doesn't mean that he was saved. Every Church of Christ member believes the just shall live by faith, but they also require water baptism to be saved. It may seem like a trifle issue, but it is the difference between Heaven and Hell. Eternal life is a free gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Lutherans errantly teach that one's faith is demonstrated by the act of being water baptized. This is unbiblical. There is confusion amongst Lutheran churches whether water baptism is required for salvation or not; but their heretical founder,Martin Luther, clearly taught the false doctrine of Baptismal Regeneration. Luther was a lifelong Mary-worshipper. Luther was messed up doctrinally, and died in his sins as an unsaved reprobate. Martin Luther even taught that a person could be saved without faith, just so long as they were water baptized. Luther was a false prophet until the day he died, and sadly his writings are still leading people into Hell. It is tragic that Lutherans idolize such a doctrinally corrupt heretic. Luther rejected the book of Revelation because he couldn't understand it.
What people should be focusing on, instead of the ceremony of baptism, is the precious blood of Jesus Christ that takes our sins away... "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."

The Church of Christ would be a good thread to start Brad ...

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

A Quote by David J. Stewart
Martin Luther Taught the Baptismal Regeneration Heresy

...

It seems David J. Stewart runs the jesus-is-savior.com web site and has recently plead guilty to and convicted of child abuse. I have drawn some material from that web site, selectively - hey, I have drawn some material from Spurgeon and others.

The question is, who is David J. Stewart and what is his approach and doctrine. The web site is pretty fundy, but then again, so is Ted Haggard ....

 

[zone]

Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Because He is our Example, I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

When I am with our Savior, if I be given judgment of anyone who loves Yeshua for Who He is, my judgment would be, "Come on in, child of the Most High God." This is how I believe things are.

Frankly, I think a lot of folks strain at the gnat in many of the threads........God bless all in Yeshua, amen.

Jack i know you prefer to only study the Bible....so what did Cephas (who was promised to be judging - the 12 tribes) mean here (for the children of Yisra'el):

Acts 2:38 Interlinear: and Peter said unto them, 'Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, - click

Acts 2
But Rock, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spoke out to them, "You men of Yehudah, and all you who dwell at Yerushalayim, let this be known to you, and listen to my words.

"Men of Yisra'el, hear these words! Yeshua of Natzeret, a man approved by God to you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as you yourselves know,

him, being delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by the hand of lawless men, crucified and killed;

whom God raised up, having freed him from the agony of death, because it was not possible that he should be held by it.

"Let all the house of Yisra'el therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Yeshua whom you crucified."

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Rock and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we

Rock said to them, "Repent, and be immersed, everyone of you, in the name of Yeshua the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh.

For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all who are far off, even as many as the Lord our God will call to himself."

...

i know this is extra-biblical, but will post it anyway:


A detailed study of the Jewish background of Christian baptism shows that it is vitally important, but God doesn't always tell us why. Obviously, the convert could repent and have a part in the life to come without it, but the emphasis seems to be pointing to the taking on of a new "believer" status illustrated as a "new birth" by immersion. In any covenant with the Lord the three items of God's Word, the blood, and a token are always present (Genesis 17:11). Jesus was always cautious to have three witnesses in everything He did (I John 5:7-8). In the Old Testament circumcision was considered the token of God's covenant, and in the New Testament we see the same wording concerning baptism as it is referred to as "circumcision made without hands" (Colossians 2:11-12). Whatever religious denomination, all believers should agree that immersion has its roots in the Jewish mikveh of Jesus' day, and it is of utmost importance for each of us to fulfill this righteous deed.

http://www.haydid.org/ronimmer.htm

 

[BradC]

i get you hate Luther, that's clear.
and that's a-okay with me.
i doubt he'd agree with much of your theology anyways.
....

some help for you:

Lutherans don't worship Luther....silly
he's only been mentioned x2 times in passing, since i've been attending.

...

Luther's teachings are not considered canon
Lutheran Confessions are not considered canon....the BOC is not even required dogma for laity, Redster:

"....the creeds and the Small Catechism are the confessions for our laity and no one should demand a level of subscription beyond that—something very few laity could make in good conscience." - Diane Grimm, LCMS Church Information Center
...

Luther didn't write any commentary on the book of Revelation - maybe he didn't understand it, so perhaps it's better he didn't expound on it....maybe some others shouldn't either < you and other uber-dispies. just a suggestion.

....

having said that:

hi Redster you said, with authority:

"Another thing, if I may, this water baptism by immersion that we have as NT believers was never given to Israel or its commonwealth because this baptism involves resurrection, out with the old and in with the new, a putting off of the old man and a putting on with the one new man, and that baptism is for the church who are in Christ through the new birth." - BradC

water baptism.....involves resurrection
out with the old and in with the new
a putting off of the old man and a putting on with the one new man
that baptism is for the church
who are in Christ through the new birth
water baptism.....involves resurrection

your source, David J. Stewart (who i am not yet familiar with) said:

"Lutherans errantly teach that one's faith is demonstrated by the act of being water baptized".

so again, as you run to and fro with your mission, did you want to recant your statement below:?

water baptism.....involves resurrection

cuz it conflicts wildly with your earlier assertion that water baptism is not even an afterthought according to the [gospel] thing you say Paul taught.


Good Luck in your endeavors.
i'll do my best to help you through this.
Zone

Come on Zone, you have not 'fessed up', do you believe that the scriptures teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation and regeneration to take place in the sinner's life? I do not believe the scriptures teach that whatsoever, but do you? Will you answer that directly or will you continue to avoid it? People are waiting, even some Lutheran's who believe it on this site.

 

[zone]

Come on Zone, you have not 'fessed up', do you believe that the scriptures teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation and regeneration to take place in the sinner's life? I do not believe the scriptures teach that whatsoever, but do you? Will you answer that directly or will you continue to avoid it? People are waiting, even some Lutheran's who believe it on this site.

no Red...i do not believe someone genuinely professing Christ and exhibiting the Real Spirit working in them dies and goes to hell i,f for some reasons they were not baptized.

what i do believe, is people who say things like water baptism isnt even an afterthought; or i dont need (read - WANT) to be baptized - are highly suspect in what they believe.

apparently they never read Jesus words.

now lets get back to your theology....do you agree with Spurgeon that infants are regenerated...or did you just hope to use Spurgeon as a hammer.

you really shouldnt do that.

have the courage of your OWN convictions and post what YOU really believe.

you know....your quotes....i`ll get them again.

heres one - where you disagree with Spurgeon and agree with what you think Luther said:

"Another thing, if I may, this water baptism by immersion that we have as NT believers was never given to Israel or its commonwealth because this baptism involves resurrection, out with the old and in with the new, a putting off of the old man and a putting on with the one new man, and that baptism is for the church who are in Christ through the new birth." - BradC

water baptism.....involves resurrection
out with the old and in with the new
a putting off of the old man and a putting on with the one new man
that baptism is for the church
who are in Christ through the new birth
water baptism.....involves resurrection

though neither Spurgeon or Luther taught Israel was excluded from their own promises.

 

[Stephen63]

[video=youtube;-VL95TDK9o4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VL95TDK9o4[/video]

 

[Stephen63]

[video=youtube;fNT0e-uo49Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNT0e-uo49Y[/video]

 

[Stephen63]

[video=youtube;ybuuCLJwQwY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybuuCLJwQwY[/video]
Start at about 7:29

 

[DragonSlayer]

Jesus told He is the way, and He was not baptized until He was more than 30. Baptism means being dead to the ancient world with the crucifixion of Christ on the Cross. How could babies who don't know how to choose from right and wrong yet be mature enough to participate in that crucifixion of the old man on the cross ? This just doesn't make any sense !
Only mature minds could plainly understand the meaning of baptism and participate to it. Baptism is the work of faith, and Jesus cannot regenerate anyone who doesn't have faith. Faith comes by a pure understanding of the Lord's Word. It's certainly not a vague belief. Faith is a very accurate understanding of the Scriptures.

You don't baptize someone who has no understanding whatsoever of the Scriptures,
and who has not fully experienced life in this fallen world yet ! And that's the case with infants !

 

[DragonSlayer]

It's not possible someone who has faith in the Word of God, would not produce the Works of God.
Thus it's not possible someone would believe in Christ, and would not want to get baptized.

Words and Works are inseparable !
For everything was created by the Word ! And everything is sustained by the Word !
Because the Word is Charity !

 

[BradC]

no Red...i do not believe someone genuinely professing Christ and exhibiting the Real Spirit working in them dies and goes to hell i,f for some reasons they were not baptized.

what i do believe, is people who say things like water baptism isnt even an afterthought; or i dont need (read - WANT) to be baptized - are highly suspect in what they believe.

apparently they never read Jesus words.

now lets get back to your theology....do you agree with Spurgeon that infants are regenerated...or did you just hope to use Spurgeon as a hammer.

you really shouldnt do that.

have the courage of your OWN convictions and post what YOU really believe.

you know....your quotes....i`ll get them again.

heres one - where you disagree with Spurgeon and agree with what you think Luther said:

"Another thing, if I may, this water baptism by immersion that we have as NT believers was never given to Israel or its commonwealth because this baptism involves resurrection, out with the old and in with the new, a putting off of the old man and a putting on with the one new man, and that baptism is for the church who are in Christ through the new birth." - BradC

water baptism.....involves resurrection
out with the old and in with the new
a putting off of the old man and a putting on with the one new man
that baptism is for the church
who are in Christ through the new birth
water baptism.....involves resurrection

though neither Spurgeon or Luther taught Israel was excluded from their own promises.

Again your premise does not allow you to understand what is being communicated to you, and your conclusion is therefore different and with opposition. The Lutherans are practicing a proxy baptism 'likened to' transubstantiation whereby the water is turned into blood (by use) to justify and regenerate the one being baptized. That is not the NT water baptism that was introduced to believers in the church. Water is used for washing to make clean or to purify but the blood is used for covering, cleansing and purging. To be a child of God and born again, one must be cleansed and purged by blood from all sin so that God can come and make his abode in that cleansed sinner through the Spirit being fully justified by faith. Water baptism has no sanctification power to regenerate or the ability to do anything that would cleanse, purge and justify from all sin.

What Christ accomplished through his death, burial and resurrection must be received and believed upon for it to have any effect on the individual sinner. Acts 16:15 & 31 is not to be taken by proxy, whereby one member of the family can believe or bring about justification for the rest of the household. A wife can not believe for her husband nor can the husband for the wife, nor the parent for the children. The believing parent can sanctify the household for God to do a work of grace with those who abide in it, but the Spirit must convict the heart for salvation to be received by faith. If an infant dies premature of any age of accountability whereby they can come under the conviction of the Spirit through hearing the gospel, they will be safe because mercy will rejoice against judgment on their behalf without the opportunity for them to hear, be convicted and exercise faith. If this be part of the election of grace that deals with these children then mercy must prevail not as some universal salvation but a mercy that has recognized that sin (nature) and sins have been judged and paid for through the cross. Of such is the kingdom of God made up and of those who receive that kingdom through the gospel with child like faith.

 

[BradC]

The simple conclusion to this issue of baptisms is that every single believer is baptized by and of the Holy Spirit at salvation as one person. Each believer is called in one hope and baptized (immersed) into one body by one Spirit through one faith in one gospel that reveals one Lord and one God and Father of us all. There is salvation in only one name under heaven. This one baptism is inward and identifies us as a member of the body of Christ that is made up of many members with Jesus Christ as the head. Each individual believer that has been called to salvation by this one faith is commanded by our one Lord to partake of water baptism (immersion) after salvation that identifies that believer with the the new birth through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. This water baptism needs to be obeyed only one time and has nothing to do with the act of regeneration but is a public display and testimony that identifies the believer with the new birth and as a follower (disciple) of Jesus Christ and of the commandments that he is taught. This is to be understood, obeyed by faith and practiced by every believer as part of our faith and calling by the grace of God.

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

2:22Then it was time for their purification offering, as required by the law of Moses after the birth of a child; so his parents took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord. [SUP]23 [/SUP]The law of the Lord says, “If a woman’s first child is a boy, he must be dedicated to the Lord.”[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]24 [/SUP]So they offered the sacrifice required in the law of the Lord—“either a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.”[SUP][b][/SUP] Gospel according to Luke - New Living Translation

1. 2:23 Exod 13:2.
2. 2:24 Lev 12:8.

Exodus 13:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, [SUP]2 [/SUP]“Dedicate to me every firstborn among the Israelites. The first offspring to be born, of both humans and animals, belongs to me.”

 

[BradC]

There is no problem with dedicating or presenting infants and or children to the Lord. This presentation or dedication is a charge to the parents to raise that up that child in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Samuel was lent to the Lord by his mother Hannah unto Eli for the priesthood where he would later be called of the Lord. Dedicating children unto the Lord is a good work but having them baptized unto regeneration or salvation is not a work that is not from God and can not be blessed.

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

Dedication is dedication by the parents in front of a congregation - the concept has been covered well enough and I disagree here with John MacArthur in that there is no reference in the Bible to this. Certainly he would not have us continue animal sacrifice.

The key now though is to realize that the child still has a decision to make on their own later in life. I do not believe that 'confirmation' en masse is sufficient as it is part of a program, scheduled by the church. Adult Baptism is still important. The Act, moment or event of a dunking is in itself not salvific. The believer needs to have heard the gospel, understood and accepted it, committed to it and be prepared for a new walk and outlook on life. The people of biblical times had perhaps more of a culture of religion in their midst. That may be true to a degree today in some religions. I could see a possibility of a revival where many of the sleeping are awakened as at Pentecost. I do fear however that so much apostasy exists, it would / will take a serious hardship and a significant change to prepare for it. Such it was for the apostles and the people then as well. John MacArthur covers some good points that perhaps someone will want to summarize and discuss. I responded to his assertion that infant baptism is not biblical.

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

MacArthur appropriately points out the sorts of congregations that children are infant baptized into. Perhaps he is saying that if we are in a bible believing church, there is no need in his view to dedicate a child to the Lord as it becomes a presumptive duty where parents of children in a Bible believing congregation will train up their children in the way they should go ... Most of the Child Baptism religions have fallen away in one way or another, fortunately many are also coming out of those religions in a spiritual rebirth to proclaim doctrinal fallacies and discuss the truth. I am glad to see the Lutheran church becoming more evangelical. Naming a religion or doctrine after a person was resisted by Martin Luther, tying that to a six child concept, and making 'charity' a system of giving stuff more than a gospel of repentance seem like more Catholic carry-over that a reforming church can continue to address ...

 

[BradC]

Right from the Missouri Synod Lutheran Chrurch.

Q: Can you please clarify the Lutheran view of Baptism and what is its purpose? Does the child become a Christian when baptized?

A: Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone. The Bible tells us that such “faith comes by hearing” (Rom 10.17). Jesus Himself commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism is water used together with the Word of God (Matt 28:19-20). Because of this, we believe that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace (another is God’s Word as it is written or spoken), through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person’s heart (see Acts 2.38- Acts 22.16- 1 Peter 3.21- Gal 3.26-27; Rom 6:1-4; Col 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12.13). Terms the Bible uses to talk about the beginning of faith include “conversion” and “regeneration.” Although we do not claim to understand fully how this happens, we believe that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. We believe this because the Bible says that infants can believe (Matt 18:6) and that new birth (regeneration) happens in Baptism (John 3:5-7; Titus 3:5-6). The infant’s faith cannot yet, of course, be verbally expressed or articulated by the child, yet it is real and present all the same (see e.g., Acts 2:38-39; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim 3:15). The faith of the infant, like the faith of adults, also needs to be fed and nurtured by God’s Word (Matt 28.18-20), or it will die.

Lutherans do not believe that only those baptized as infants receive faith. Faith can also be created in a person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthening faith in accordance with God's command and promise. Depending on the situation, therefore, Lutherans baptize people of all ages from infancy to adulthood.

The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. All true believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of Baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God). Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere “ritual” or “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.

 

[BradC]

Right from the Missouri Synod Lutheran Chrurch.

Q: You say that infant baptism is ONE way of salvation. Since this practice was unknown in the New Testament or even the early Catholic Church, it is speculative. The Bible says that repentance is a pre- requisite for faith. I repented at five, so it can be early, but not in someone's arms.

A: Infants are included in "all nations" who are to be baptized (Matt. 28:19). Certainly they were included in Peter's Pentecost exhortation in Acts 2:38, 39: "Repent and be baptized everyone one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins....The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Whole households, everyone in the family, were baptized in the beginning of New Testament times, which in all probability included infants (Acts 16:15 and 33). [The "household" formula used here by Luke has Old Testament precedent, with special reference also to small children, as for example in 1 Sam. 22:16, 19; see Joachim Jeremias, Infant Baptism in the First Four Centuries, 22-23.] In Romans 6, the Holy Spirit tells us in the Word that in Baptism we have been united with Jesus' death and resurrection–regenerated, dying to sin and rising to new life. That happens to infants when baptized (Gal. 3:27). "For as many of you who have been baptized have put on Christ." Baptism through the Word creates the faith necessary to receive salvation for infants. Infants can have faith. In Mark 10:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." The Greek word in this text is "paidia" which means babes in arms. Infants can belong to the kingdom of God. "From the lips of children and infants, You have ordained praise...." Psalm 8:2. "Yet You brought me out of the womb, You made me trust in You even at my mother's breast" Psalm 22:9.

From the beginning of New Testament Christianity at Pentecost to our time, unbroken and uninterrupted, the Church has baptized babies. Polycarp (69-155 AD), a disciple of the Apostle John, was baptized as an infant. Justin Martyr (100-166 AD) of the next generation, about the year 150 AD, states in his Dialog with Trypho The Jew that Baptism is the circumcision of the New Testament." Irenaeus (130-200 AD) writes in Against Heresies II 22:4 that Jesus came to save all through means of Himself -- all, I say, who through Him are born again to God – infants and children, boys and youth, and old men."

Similar expressions are found in succeeding generations by Origen (185-254 AD) and Cyprian (215-258 AD), and at the Council of Carthage in 254 where the 66 bishops stated: "We ought not hinder any person from Baptism and the grace of God....especially infants....those newly born." Origen wrote in his Commentary on Romans 5:9: "For this also it was that the Church had from the Apostles a tradition to give baptism even to infants." Origen also wrote in his Homily on Luke 14: "Infants are to be baptized for the remission of sins." Cyprian's reply to a bishop who wrote to him regarding the baptism of infants stated: "Should we wait until the 8th day as did the Jews in the circumcision? No, the child should be baptized as soon as it is born."

Augustine (354-430 AD) wrote in De Genesi Ad Literam, 10:39 declared, "The custom of our mother Church in baptizing infants must not be counted needless, nor believed to be other than a tradition of the Apostles." Augustine further states: "...the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they cannot possibly be vivified in Christ. In 517 AD, 10 rules of discipline were framed for the Church in Spain. The fifth rule states that "...in case infants were ill...if they were offered, to baptize them, even though it were the day that they were born...such was to be done." (The History of Baptism by Robert Robinson, London, Thomas Knott, 1790, p.269)

This pattern of baptizing infants remained in Christianity through the Dark and Middle Ages until modern times. In the 1500 years from the time of Christ to the Protestant Reformation, the only bonafide opponent to infant Baptism was the heretic Tertullian (160-215 AD) who de facto denied original sin. Then in the 1520s the Christian Church experienced opposition specifically to infant Baptism under the influence of Thomas Muenzer and other fanatics who opposed both civil and religious authority, original sin and human concupiscence. Thomas' opposition was then embraced by a considerable number of Swiss, German and Dutch Anabaptists. This brought about strong warning and renunciation by the Roman Catholics, Lutherans and Reformed alike. It was considered a shameless affront to what had been practiced in each generation since Christ's command in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20) to baptize all nations irrespective of age. Historical excerpts are from "Infant Baptism in Early Church History," by Dr. Dennis Kastens in Issues Etc. Journal, Spring 1997, Vol. 2, No. 3.

 

[BradC]

I REPEAT TO THOSE WHO ASCRIBE TO LUTHERAN DOCTRINE

None of what you have said changes the fact that Lutherans believe in baptismal regeneration or that there is no regeneration of the soul without water baptism (which also includes infants). If you adhere to their doctrine then you also believe in the same and that is a dangerous doctrine that has misled many to believe in a false gospel. If you do not believe in baptismal regeneration as the Lutheran's teach, then you are contrary and if contrary why do you support their doctrine? Baptismal regeneration takes away from any sinner the promise of being justified by faith when they believe upon Christ and it minimizes as secondary the work of the cross and the blood of Christ. Infants, who have not reached the age of accountability and do not have a capacity to come under conviction of the Spirit, are covered by the blood of Christ where sin and sins were paid for and crucified. When they reach that age and come under conviction through the preaching of the gospel they can believe and be saved and justified by the blood that covered them as an infant and now has cleansed them from all sin including purging the conscience from dead works. That's not hard to understand now is it?