Pre Trib Rapture Moment 11: What will trigger the rapture?

leo1 · Nov 7, 2013

this is my point exactly, where someone can read something many times but not understand it once! rev 9/18 says "by these three was the third PART of men killed..ok the third PART, not one third, there is one part of men; the beast, the second part of men; the false prophet, the third part; the witnesses... this verse simply explains HOW the witnesses will be killed; by the fire the smoke and the brimstone which proceedeth out of their(muslims) mouths...have you ever seen someone shooting a rifle?now john, seeing this in a vision could very well have thought it was like some kind of wicked blow gun or something! now if you would go to rev 11/5; "and if any man will hurt THEM[witnesses],fire proceedeth out of THEIR[those who kill the witnesses]mouth and devour[kill]THEM[witnesses]and if any man will hurt THEM[witnesses] HE[witness] must in this manner be killed...these verses have been misinterpeted since they were written, to mean the witnesses will spew fire to kill their enemies...this is not true.perhaps a more thorough reading is in order or stick to the untruth,your choice of course. thanks for your time.

leo1 · Nov 7, 2013

Josh321 said:

know what i find amazing? is someone of a mere 20 yrs has the intestinal fortitude to berate people who have studied the scriptures longer than they have walked the earth.this is what happens when people watch the boob tube and the many false prophet evangelists like john hagee or hal lindsey who by the way wrote a book in 1970 saying the apocalypse would happen in 1987. and then when proven wrong did not miss a beat but kept making money off of the lie...he certainly wears nice italian made suits and nice watches and jewelry, however he lies to Christians to make money! they have made our job nearly impossible which our young friend josh has just proven!but he is right about one thing; i am afraid to believe a lie.

not gonna try to help people who don't even wanna help themselves, so proud in their own belief to even consider anything else, may God open the eyes of these people before it's too late...............is this about yourself or those who are trying to help you?

Graybeard · Nov 7, 2013

leo1 said:

hmmmm...

Pro 16:5 Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Though they join forces, none will go unpunished.

Pro 21:24 A proud and haughty man—"Scoffer" is his name; He acts with arrogant pride.

Pro 28:25 He who is of a proud heart stirs up strife, But he who trusts in the LORD will be prospered.

Jas 4:6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "GOD RESISTS THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."

1Pe 5:5 .............. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for "GOD RESISTS THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."

leo1 · Nov 7, 2013

Graybeard said:

I suppose it is more important to prove me wrong than seek the truth, is that is your only rebuttal, that I'm too proud?simply defending my knowledge of the Bible sir! you attacked, I responded. BTW; Father and I are just fine, thank you for caring though.we can do this dance til Armageddon,not sure how this will save the lost but what the heck, everyone has their own way of doing things. so?? nothing intelligent to add to the debate?

leo1 · Nov 7, 2013

Josh321 said:

alright my brother, according to senior member graybeard my method of teaching is flawed and my knowledge of the Bible is in question as well,plus I am an abomination unto the Lord because of my pride... so allow me to attempt this in another way; let us say just for arguments sake that our Lord came to you with the question "there are 2 ways for you to handle the great tribulation; one is that you will be taken up to heaven beforehand which means you will not be here to help your loved ones or any christian, and you will not be a king or a priest later.the other way is that you remain here through the trib showing people the way to the promised land but you will have to go through the great trib and die with the rest of the witnesses.doing this you will be exalted as kings by Father and remain here on earth for 1,000 yrs helping and guiding the new generation of people. which would you choose?What is your answer to our Lord?

konroh · Nov 7, 2013

I think you have to admit that the more natural reading is that the witnesses spew fire to kill their enemies. Your twisting of the antecedents of the pronouns is terribly difficult to understand. We have the witnesses and the witness's enemies. It's not the witnesses that are killed, it's the enemies. Until the beast comes to make war with them and kill them.

As for the test of the tribulation, it's not that as a pre-tribber I want to not be tested and get fewer rewards. I want to persevere as much as possible and I know God will give me as much as I can handle when I submit to His will. And Jesus says that the tribulation is only 7 years (the days are shortened) because otherwise no one could handle it! It doesn't matter who you are. Also in Rev. 20 it says that thrones were seen with authority to judge. Then also were seen those who were beheaded in the Tribulation, and they sat on thrones. But they aren't the only ones on thrones, they appear to have a prominent position, but saints who are earlier raptured can also be on thrones. As is says in 1 Cor. 6:3 we will judge angels 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life? Jesus also speaks to the disciples and speaks of those who will sit on His right hand and His left. The church of Thyatira was told that 26To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’[SUP]b[/SUP] —just as I have received authority from my Father. The believers of Thyatira did not go through the tribulation, but if they finished strong in life they will have authority over the nations in the millenial kingdom.

leo1 · Nov 7, 2013

konroh said:

well, i tried, believe what you will about the witnesses,but what do you care what we witnesses have to endure? i have tried to spew fire in preparation several times but nothing yet...as a rapturist you all won't be here but sitting comfortably on a throne in heaven or wherever you think your going. the witnesses will be right here in the thick of it.no one is forcing you to stick around. i do envy that you all have nothing to worry about...one question though, what did you all do that was so good and noble in the eyes of our Lord to be afforded such an easy time of it and escape the tribulation & the sting of death? how do you become one of these rapture people? i may give up being a witness and book a flight with you guys! sounds like a real kick...no muss no fuss just blink and gone huh?hmmm i might give this rapture business some more thought.
oh before i go lets observe another myth perpetuated by the false prophet...where did Jesus say it would be 7 years long? all i ever see throughout revelations is three and a half years but you say I twisted rev 9/18 and 11/5 so who knows whats true now?darn it i thought i had it too!

konroh · Nov 7, 2013

I can appreciate the satire. I could easily satire you for wanting to endure the tribulation. What? You want to get beheaded and killed by demons and endure hailstones and be tortured? What are you, a masochist? The point is not what I want or don't want, it's what we both believe Scripture says. Believe me, if I'm not Raptured I will want to stand for Christ and not be marked by the beast, but I recognize that Rev. says many will yearn for death and not find it. Now how is that possible? Can't you always just commit suicide? I recognize that I can be overcome and there is persecution beyond which I am able to bear, I place myself into Christ's hands.

And the understanding of the tribulation as 7 years comes from Dan. 9 where the 70th week of Daniel is 7 years, since there were 483 years from the decree issued until Jesus was killed (the 1st 69 weeks, 69X7=483). I agree that Rev. seems to focus greatly on the last half of the tribulation, the Great Tribulation, variously referred to as 1260 days or 42 months.

leo1 · Nov 7, 2013

wow! I thought it would be tough when i took this job but my goodness! for every truth I have given you guys, you have responded with ten lies,unreal! i would love to walk away shaking my head and let you wallow in stupidity until the truth becomes so obvious you have to believe it!but father chose me for a reason and i will not let him down...there are other forums and other idiots, maybe i'll try a different angle this time.

Isdaniel · Nov 7, 2013

leo1 said:

Hey its not cool calling people idiots because they dont share the same view as you its just not cool

Graybeard · Nov 7, 2013

Isdaniel said:

You and I disagree on some things, this is what my first post to leo1 was about, in reply he has laid false witness against me and continued to call those he disagrees with idiots and retards, this is what I said originally we should not do. we can agree to disagree, like I said earlier, we are all brothers in Christ.

Graybeard · Nov 7, 2013

leo1 said:

Exo 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Deu 5:20 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Pro 6:19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Pro 12:17 He who speaks truth declares righteousness, But a false witness, deceit.

Luk 18:20 You know the commandments: 'DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,' 'DO NOT MURDER,' 'DO NOT STEAL,' 'DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS,' 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER.' "

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

PlainWord · Nov 8, 2013

Not sure who you are referring to here? I never said the Lord comes twice, partially before and partially after the Tribulation. My position is clear, the Lord returns ONCE AFTER the Tribulation.

As for Paul's lesson in 1 Thes 4. He is explaining to the Thessalonians about what happens to those who sleep in Christ. They return with the Father AFTER THE MILLENNIUM. Do you have any passages that tells us GOD returns with Christ either before or after the Tribulation? No you don't!!! Paul's version agrees exactly with John's account of when the vast majority of Christians will return to earth. First let's look at what Paul says in 1 Thes 4:

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Now let's look at what John teaches in Rev 20:

4 ...Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded... who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark... And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Can you see that only the Tribulation era martyrs return with Christ now??? Can you see that the rest of the dead do not return until God brings them? If you can't, I'm sorry. If you preach that ALL BELIEVERS return when Christ returns, you are contradicting the clear written Word of God. I'm sorry if God's Word doesn't fit your belief system.

The fact that Paul discussed what happens to the vast majority of Christians first in this passage doesn't cause any problems. If I was telling you about a football game that you missed and told you who won and the great play at the end of the game first, then went back and told you about the first half, would I be violating some literary rules? I think not!!

Paul was shown some things, John was shown some things, Peter was shown some things. Each of the major and minor prophets were also shown some things. You have to put it all together to get a clear look at the whole picture. That's how the Bible was written. It needs to be studied. God wants you in His Word often. He wants you searching for answers and most are provided if you keep an open mind and allow the Word to teach you rather than developing a theory to explain things you don't understand.

Paul then begins to discuss what happens to those still alive and remaining on earth. It is so important to emphasis that Paul isn't talking about any Pre-Trib Rapture because what are the remaining from? Paul is discussing the small group of Elect, those left of the 144K. 1 Thes 4:

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede (or prevent) those who are asleep.

Those asleep are already in heaven with Jesus and the Father. So of course they precede those alive as they have already gone on to heaven.

PlainWord · Nov 8, 2013

konroh said:

I'm just curious, who do you think Satan orders to be killed at the 6th trumpet. Can you think of a group that represents approx 1/3 of the world that might be good for him if he gets them out of the way??? Did you happen to notice that the trumpets must often affect 1/3 of this and 1/3 of that? Hmm. Isn't that odd?

Let me throw up this chart to see if maybe it gives you a hint. God has to allow it, as we saw with Job. Would God allow it if his children were out whoring (His words) around with Satan's lies?

leo1 · Nov 8, 2013

Graybeard said:

alright, if i may say a few words before i move on; I would like to apologize to anyone i may have offended with my name calling, isdaniel is absolutely correct in pointing out that it is not cool at all...in my defense i was trying to get their attention!this was wrong and I am sincerely sorry that i tried that approach...there is nothing worse than a self righteous fool[calling myself a fool!]my teaching methods are flawed, i see that now,just because i know something, doesn't mean people will take it as truth from my word alone,i apologize to graybeard as well as the others i offended with my crazy tactics,i WILL learn from my mistakes on the next forum. i am sad that i have not been able to tell people the true number of the beast,perhaps in the future i will be able to remain calm as i try and teach others how to arrive at it.thank you for waking me up! again, my intentions were good, my methods not so much.
People that think there will be a rapture please please try and look at things with a fresh outlook.again i am truly sorry of the way i handled myself. thanks for your patience.

ChosenbyHim · Nov 8, 2013

PlainWord said:

One thing you must keep in mind plain. And that is this. At the Rapture of the body of Christ, Jesus Christ is not seen by every eye. Jesus Christ reveals Himself only to His saints (born again Chrsitians) in the air at the Rapture.

At the Second Coming, Jesus Christ reveals Himself to his enemies (where every eye will see him, Rev. 1:7).

At the Rapture, we go up to meet the Lord in the Air.

We go up to meet Him (Song of Solomon 2, Job 37, 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15).

After Daniel's 70th week, we return with the Lord to the Earth. (1 thessalonains 3:13 & Revelation 19:14).

Think of it like this. At Jesus Christ's first coming, who did He first reveal Himself to?

To those who would believe on Him and trust Him for salvation.

Jesus Christ, at his first coming, showed up in secret.

Then at the opening and start of His earthly ministry, when he was 30 years old, he revealed Himself to the public, and to his enemies.

Daniel's 70th week is a different dispensation Plain. That is a fact.

In the time of Jacob's trouble, there will be a temple in Jerusalem.

Right now, there is no temple in Jerusalem. The temple of God today is in the body of born again believers:

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. - 1 Corinthians 3:16-19 (King James Bible)

The temple of God right now in the church age is a spiritual one inside of the physcial body of every true born again Christian.

But in the time of Jacob's trouble, there will be a physical temple in Jerusalem:

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. - Matthew 24:13-21 (King James Bible)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. - 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (King James Bible)

The temple which the antichrist is going to stand in at the middle of Daniel's 70th week is a physical temle in Jerusalem.

If you are not dispensational Plain, then you will not understand this important truth in the Holy Scriptures.

Before the temple is in Jerusalem, we Christians cannot be here on the earth, we have to be removed from off of the earth. And that is exactly what is going to happen. The only real way that you can reconcile those passages (1 Cor. 3:16-19 & 2 Thess. 2:3-4 ) is by rightly diving the word of truth, just as we are comanded to do in 2 Timothy 2:15.

konroh · Nov 8, 2013

Plainword, I understand your interpretation of 1 Thess 4 as referencing the end of the millenium, and then referencing the 2nd coming of Jesus at the end of the tribulation. I have no problem with the idea of revealing the end and then going back to give the details. I just disagree that this is what Paul does here, especially since Paul doesn't refer to the millenium at all in 1 & 2 Thess. and you have Paul skipping around a lot more than I have Paul skipping around.

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

Paul sets up his subject, Thessalonian believers who are alive and Thessalonian believers who are asleep--have died. The living believers should not grieve for the dead, they haven't missed out, why?

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

Because those who have died will come with God (Jesus) when He returns, how will they come, will they have resurrection bodies? They obviously have been with God in spirit and in a real way (absent from the body, present with the Lord).

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Paul, along with the Thessalonians, expected that Christ could return at any moment, so he and the Thessalonians were remaining until the coming of the Lord. As it happened, they all died, so they are now a part of those who have fallen asleep, the dead in Christ, and we now who are alive and remain, waiting for the coming of the Lord, will not precede them. This is an emphatic "word of the Lord" from Paul and introduces a revolutionary and possibly surprising idea. It's referred to by him as a "mystery" in 1 Cor. 15.

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

We see here the point about resurrection, the dead in Christ, those who have fallen asleep, will get their resurrection bodies first, they will not miss out. This is not a secret rapture because there is a shout, the archangel's voice and the trumpet of God. It will be a worldwide, climactic event. The announcement that it's a trumpet doesn't associate it with the 7th trumpet in Rev. in my opinion. A trumpet call is a universal symbol of gathering, the Israelites had it, both as a community and as a military. I do associate it with 1 Cor. 15 where it says, at the last trump, for the trumpet will sound. But notice that if this was an association with the 7 trumpets of Rev. then Paul should have said, "At the last trumpet, for the trumpets will sound, with the idea that there is more than one. Paul's use of last trumpet is like saying, "at the final call" This correlates with the Greek word eschate, last, which is a general term.

17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Those who are alive and on earth at the coming of the Lord are "raptured" with a glorious family reunion in the clouds. We will all be together and with the Lord. No mention of coming to the earth. It really seems that the idea is that we're all leaving the earth. The dead in Christ have obviously left the earth, they've been with Jesus, now we'll all be together with Jesus in resurrection bodies. This is a great comfort.

Also, as to the chart that 1/3 of the world are now Christians, that's great. But we have 1/4 of the earth destroyed at the 4th seal of Rev. If you then say that Rev. 6 is 1/3 of the 75% who now remain on earth and that this 1/3 are Christians, I'm fine with that. I actually think that in the Tribulation with the 2 witnesses and the 144K that you will have only 2 options. Believe in Christ, or belief in Antichrist. I'm more inclined to think that even though the Christian saints have been raptured, the evangelism during the tribulation will be so great that you either follow the beast or Christ, and 50% of the earth will follow Christ. There won't be all the religious choices we have now. There will be a worldwide state (Antichrist) religion, and there will be rebellion against that and the religion following "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world."

PlainWord · Nov 9, 2013

Chosen,

I am very familiar with what the Rapture doctrine teaches, you don't need to instruct me on your beliefs as I was taught the Rapture doctrine long before you were born. The three biggest things the Rapture doctrine teaches, 1) we are taken to heaven, 2) we avoid the Tribulation, 3) Raptured people return with the Lord after the Tribulation, are not taught.

Please give me one verse that clearly teaches ANY of these 3. I don't want you quoting verses that you think imply these events. I want verses that clearly teach these. You won't find any.

The Lord does not come in secret. He is not a whimp. Hundreds of millions being snatched away would hardly not be noticed so why come in secret? Besides, the only purpose I can see for the Lord to do this is for us to avoid the Temptation of Satan. Now why should Christians avoid the test? Why are we told to put on the Armor of God for our daily walk and battle with Satan but then to forget the armor during the worst period of Satanic testing and fly away? Christians are not taught to run away and be cowards. You go ahead and turn tail and run if you want. I'm staying to witness and fight.

Satan is released after the 1,000 years again. WHY? To tempt the nations yet again. Don't you see a pattern? We must all be tested before we enter the Kingdom.

PlainWord · Nov 9, 2013

Konroh,

Read carefully, the 6th seal says the Pale (GREEN HORSE - THE OFFICIAL COLOR OF ISLAM) has power over 1/4 to kill. It doesn't say that 1/4 of the world is killed. Rev 6 (KJV):

8 And I looked, and behold a pale (CHLOROS = GREEN) horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

What follows a suicide Islamic rider? Not Paradise as they think, rather it is death and hell.

How much of the World is Islamic from the chart I provided? Over 21% and growing fast.

Where are the poorest, starving nations? East Africa and southeast Asia which are heavily Islamic

One translation calls the "Beasts" "Bestial Men," I forgot which one. I doubt in the 21st century wild animals will be used to kill people.

Look at the NLT translation:

8 And I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green like a corpse. And Death was the name of its rider, who was followed around by the Grave. They were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals.

PlainWord · Nov 9, 2013

Konroh,

Now why would Paul tell the Thessalonians in his first letter that they were going to be raptured then tell them in his second letter that they have to wait for the Lord's Second Coming? Can you answer that for me?

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him..

Why also does Paul include himself in both groups? He says "WE" in 1 Thes 4:17 and "OUR GATHERING" in 2 Thes 2:1? Can you answer that question for me as well?

Pre Trib Rapture Moment 11: What will trigger the rapture?

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