Pre Trib Rapture Moment 11: What will trigger the rapture?
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I would say the falling away from the faith will trigger the rapture because that is when God will judge His House first. If you consider that the despensation of the gospel went to the Gentiles because the Jews rejected the chief cornerstone, then the falling away from the faith would trigger God judging His House first and then after the pre trib rapture, the depsensation of the gospel goes back to the Jews, hence the 144,000 witnesses for the coming great tribulation.
7th Bowl and 7th trumpet happen at the same time. The seals are opened slowly starting probably around 960 AD. We are in Seal 4 or 5 right now. The Trumpet blast occur over a much shorter period of time and the Bowls happen just prior to the Lord's return. When we get to 7-7-7, the Lord is here.
Check out the description of the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl:
Rev 11:
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Rev 16:
17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.
21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men...
Don't you see the same 5 things happening in each? I've bolded them for you to make it easier for you to see.
Notice the 7th angels pours his bowl into the air, then God says, "It is done." Who is the Prince and Power of the Air? See Eph 2. In fact the whole chapter paints a beautiful picture of the Gentile Church and Israel as one. This chapter dovetails nicely with Romans 11. If you can see the Church and Israel as ONE as Paul teaches it, then you can see also that God has one plan for us collectively. He isn't taken the church to heaven escape Satan's temptation while leaving Israel here and we know Israel is here throughout the Tribulation. Such thinking is haughty and could get one ungrafted from the Olive Tree, as Paul warns.
Check out the description of the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl:
Rev 11:
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Rev 16:
17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.
21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men...
Don't you see the same 5 things happening in each? I've bolded them for you to make it easier for you to see.
Notice the 7th angels pours his bowl into the air, then God says, "It is done." Who is the Prince and Power of the Air? See Eph 2. In fact the whole chapter paints a beautiful picture of the Gentile Church and Israel as one. This chapter dovetails nicely with Romans 11. If you can see the Church and Israel as ONE as Paul teaches it, then you can see also that God has one plan for us collectively. He isn't taken the church to heaven escape Satan's temptation while leaving Israel here and we know Israel is here throughout the Tribulation. Such thinking is haughty and could get one ungrafted from the Olive Tree, as Paul warns.
Huh? What is the Dispensation of the Gospels going to the Gentiles??? Do you think the Church as Christ established it was only Gentile? Do you not know that the first churches were Jewish and remained that way until Peter had his vision? You must be one of these Replacement Theologists who instruct the Church has replaced Israel and taken over her covenant? This thinking is utter hypocrisy!!! If you think the church has replaced Israel, you better go back and read Ephesians 2.
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity (SEPARATION), that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity (SEPARATION).
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God...
The church is going through the Tribulation friend. The tribulation is Satan's Hour of Temptation. Both must be purified through fire, cleansed, tested and found worthy. The Gentile Church is grafted into the Jewish Olive Tree, not the other way around. It is this thinking that has led people into believing they are better than Israel and thus will fly off to heaven while Israel endures the Great Tribulation. Such complete and utter nonsense!!!
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity (SEPARATION), that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity (SEPARATION).
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God...
The church is going through the Tribulation friend. The tribulation is Satan's Hour of Temptation. Both must be purified through fire, cleansed, tested and found worthy. The Gentile Church is grafted into the Jewish Olive Tree, not the other way around. It is this thinking that has led people into believing they are better than Israel and thus will fly off to heaven while Israel endures the Great Tribulation. Such complete and utter nonsense!!!
Consider why only 144,000 Jews were selected as witnesses after the pre trib rapture for the coming great tribulation. Why is there no mention of Gentiles in being selected?
Then mayhap He will help you discern that the Jews rejection of the chief cornerstone sent the despensing of the Gospel to the Gentiles what was originally meant to be given first to the House of Israel.
Salvation was supoosed to be of the Jews as they were to be a light to the nations, but as prophesied, it was put on hold until the fulness of the times of the Gentiles had come in.... and it will by the falling away from the faith which wqould be on parallel with the Jews rejecting the chief cornerstone as many believers will be denied by Him & left behind for their works on that foundation which was laid in Christ Jesus that deny Him.
As God will judge His House by route of excommunicating those not found abiding in Him by His grace & by His help, He will be restoring those wayrd believers that get left behind to the path of righteousness for His name's sake for He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him albeit, many are called, but few are chosen for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb as there will be vessels unto dishonour in His House that shall be left behind as castaways at the pre trib rapture.
L
Ephesians chapter 6 verse 13 speaks of a evil day?wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God,that ye may be able to withstand in THE EVIL DAY,and having done all to stand.Second Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 3 let no man deceive you by any means for that" DAY" shall not come,except there come a falling away first,and that Man of sin be Revealed,The son of perdition,verse 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,or sitteth in the temple of God,shewing himself that he is God.That would be a evil day wouldn't it?So only some are raptured before this?Scripture is clear, this is the only truth!
Luke 18:[SUP]7 [/SUP]And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? [SUP]8 [/SUP]I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Matthew 7:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Jesus prophesied that faith will be hard to find just before His coming as the Bridegroom for the ready & abiding bride so that evil day.. that perilous time... that tribulation is now before the rapture that signals the coming of the great tribulation.
Matthew 7:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Jesus prophesied that faith will be hard to find just before His coming as the Bridegroom for the ready & abiding bride so that evil day.. that perilous time... that tribulation is now before the rapture that signals the coming of the great tribulation.
L
Let them grow together til the end of the age, tares and wheat?Reapers will gather the tares first tie in bundles to burn in the furnace then the wheat to the barn.The wheat, being the saints,the tares sowed by the wicked one.Revelation chapter 12=verse,11 saints overcame by the blood of the lamb(Jesus Christ)and by the word of their testimony,and they loved not their lives unto DEATH.Verse 17=And the dragon(satan)was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,which keep the commandments of God,and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
There are two events happening in that reference for which the Lord will deal with it at two different times: the falling away from the faith which is Him destroying the workings after Satan by God jusging His House first and then He comes back with the raptured saints at the end of the great tribulation to deal with Satan himself and his armies.
Well,that is all I think, I should contribute to this subject.
Why stop? There is so much more to add. I know, I'll list every scripture that discusses the Lord returning before the Tribulation where He comes and takes us all to heaven then returns with the Raptured Saints after the Tribulation. Ready?
Here's the list...
x
Neither is trinity, but you can find scriptures testifying to the Triune God just as there are scriptures testifying that what makes up the kingdom of heaven is hidden as there will be three harvests before the Son gives it up to the Father in the end: Christ the firstfruits, and they that are Christ's at His coming and then the end of that harvest that did not rebel with Satan when he is released from the pit after the milleniel reign.
Matthew 13:[SUP]33 [/SUP]Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
1 Corinthians 15:But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept....[SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
So there wqill be saints found abiding in Him to be taken as firstfruits.
James 1:18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
These particular firstfruits below were those redeemed from the earth that did not defile themselved with women, remaining as virgins. Note what follows after they had been redeemed from the earth: three angels setting the stage for the coming great tribulation and then those wayward saints left behind were to face what was coming.
Revelation 14:[SUP]3 [/SUP]And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. [SUP]4 [/SUP]These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God...........[SUP]6 [/SUP]And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, [SUP]7 [/SUP]Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, [SUP]10 [/SUP]The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Alot f believers are labouring in unbelief from which the Lord will make them finally rest from their labours as their works will follow them ... as into the dust as wood, stubble, and hay would wind up after being burned up for what they had built on that foundation.
Oh yeah. God the Father will chasten every child He receives ... even if it means by leaving them behind as the prodigal son having given up his first inheritance ( firstfruits ) for wild living where there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth over that loss, but after the great tribultion, God will wipe the tears from their eyes to get past that loss as they will know they are still sons and become as vessels unto dishonour in His House as they will testify to the saving power of God in salvation for any that believe in Jesus Christ, even in His name. So His glory as Saviour will be seen in both the vessels unto honour as well as the vessels unto dishonour in His House... and that only covers two harvests with the third yet to come still after the milleniel reign which will make up the whole of the kingdom of heaven.
May God cause the increase... for I know I cannot
Matthew 13:[SUP]33 [/SUP]Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
1 Corinthians 15:But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept....[SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
So there wqill be saints found abiding in Him to be taken as firstfruits.
James 1:18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
These particular firstfruits below were those redeemed from the earth that did not defile themselved with women, remaining as virgins. Note what follows after they had been redeemed from the earth: three angels setting the stage for the coming great tribulation and then those wayward saints left behind were to face what was coming.
Revelation 14:[SUP]3 [/SUP]And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. [SUP]4 [/SUP]These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God...........[SUP]6 [/SUP]And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, [SUP]7 [/SUP]Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, [SUP]10 [/SUP]The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Alot f believers are labouring in unbelief from which the Lord will make them finally rest from their labours as their works will follow them ... as into the dust as wood, stubble, and hay would wind up after being burned up for what they had built on that foundation.
Oh yeah. God the Father will chasten every child He receives ... even if it means by leaving them behind as the prodigal son having given up his first inheritance ( firstfruits ) for wild living where there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth over that loss, but after the great tribultion, God will wipe the tears from their eyes to get past that loss as they will know they are still sons and become as vessels unto dishonour in His House as they will testify to the saving power of God in salvation for any that believe in Jesus Christ, even in His name. So His glory as Saviour will be seen in both the vessels unto honour as well as the vessels unto dishonour in His House... and that only covers two harvests with the third yet to come still after the milleniel reign which will make up the whole of the kingdom of heaven.
May God cause the increase... for I know I cannot
LT, again, 1 Cor. 15 does indeed speak of the Rapture of the body of Christ. At the rapture all born again Christians receive their glorified bodies (1 Cor. 15:51-55 & Phil. 3:20-21).
And it is the Rapture of the body of Christ, that is imminent. The rapture of the body of Christ must take place first before the 70th Week of Daniel occurs.
We can find scriptures that discuss all three and that the Father, Son and HS are one. The problem with the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine is we can't find a single passage anywhere that:
1) Discusses the Lord returning BEFORE the Tribulation.
2) Discusses the Lord taking anyone alive off to heaven.
3) Discusses a Raptured group in heaven, Not just during the Tribulation, but EVER.
4) Discusses the Lord returning to earth with a group that was Raptured AFTER the Tribulation.
5) Discusses the Post Rapture Saints as those who were left behind or were future converts
6) Discusses two distinct future returns of the Lord
7) Discusses two separate plans for the Church and Israel
All of the above are fabricated, the result of an 19th century vision of a delusional woman named Margaret MacDonald that two ministers heard and ran with.
1) Discusses the Lord returning BEFORE the Tribulation.
2) Discusses the Lord taking anyone alive off to heaven.
3) Discusses a Raptured group in heaven, Not just during the Tribulation, but EVER.
4) Discusses the Lord returning to earth with a group that was Raptured AFTER the Tribulation.
5) Discusses the Post Rapture Saints as those who were left behind or were future converts
6) Discusses two distinct future returns of the Lord
7) Discusses two separate plans for the Church and Israel
All of the above are fabricated, the result of an 19th century vision of a delusional woman named Margaret MacDonald that two ministers heard and ran with.
Pretty charts Chosen. Where can I find them in the Bible, chapter and verse please???
I see you have Rev 4:1 and 1 Thes 4:13-18 listed as a Rapture passages. Let's see if we can find anything there that:
1) Gives the timing of the Lord's return
2) Those in the church who are alive are going to heaven
Rev 4:
1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."
I see John (you) being called up to heaven to be shown future events. We know from Rev 1:10 that John was in the spirit. But, I don't see the church discussed here at all, do you?? Is John or you considered the Church? Are you hearing voices too? If so, what are they telling you???
1 Thes 4:
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Please point out where any of these verses place the timing BEFORE the Tribulation, because I am not seeing it. Verse 14 gives us a hint to the timing. It says "GOD will bring with Him those that sleep in Jesus." Do we have any other passage that discusses when God the Father returns? Why yes, Rev 21:3 tells us God comes down with the Tabernacle of God and that he will dwell with us. But oops, we have a problem Houston, this takes place after the Millennium, 1,007+ years before you say it does. So clearly, verses 13-14 don't have anything to do with any Tribulation era Rapture.
Verse 15 tells us that those who are alive and remain(ing) (from the Tribulation) when the Lord returns will NOT precede or prevent those who are already asleep. That makes sense because they are dead and already in heaven with the Father and Son. So, no help there.
Verse 18 just tells us to comfort one another, so no help there. This leaves verses 16-17. Let's look again for a timing and/or to see if anyone is going to heaven in these verses. I'll use the KJV to make you happy:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Brother Chosen, help me. I can't see a timing here!!! I want to believe the Lord comes BEFORE the Tribulation but I can't find where the Bible teaches it. I want to believe we all get to put on our space suits and fly away to heaven and kick back while Satan is unleashed to tempt the world but I can't find this taught either. Help me!! I think we need to insert your charts here in 1 Thes 4, that would help. Are we allowed to do that?
Let's compare some key words to the Lord's actual return from the Lord's own mouth which HE (JESUS) tells us about HIS return. Can we find any similarities?
Mat 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I see CLOUDS, TRUMP OR TRUMPET (SINGULAR), ANGEL(S), GATHERING OR CATCHING UP, LORD HIMSELF OR SON OF MAN FROM HEAVEN. Paul refers to those being gathered as "Alive and Remain" which Christ calls them "HIS ELECT." ELECT sounds like a much stronger word implying that "THEY WERE CHOSEN and are a FINITE GROUP."
Is it possible that Paul and Christ were describing the same event and not two separate events separated by a period of Great Tribulation? There sure are a lot of similarities between the two events. If you were a detective Brother Chosen, could you rule out that these two passages are describing the same event?
I see you have Rev 4:1 and 1 Thes 4:13-18 listed as a Rapture passages. Let's see if we can find anything there that:
1) Gives the timing of the Lord's return
2) Those in the church who are alive are going to heaven
Rev 4:
1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."
I see John (you) being called up to heaven to be shown future events. We know from Rev 1:10 that John was in the spirit. But, I don't see the church discussed here at all, do you?? Is John or you considered the Church? Are you hearing voices too? If so, what are they telling you???
1 Thes 4:
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Please point out where any of these verses place the timing BEFORE the Tribulation, because I am not seeing it. Verse 14 gives us a hint to the timing. It says "GOD will bring with Him those that sleep in Jesus." Do we have any other passage that discusses when God the Father returns? Why yes, Rev 21:3 tells us God comes down with the Tabernacle of God and that he will dwell with us. But oops, we have a problem Houston, this takes place after the Millennium, 1,007+ years before you say it does. So clearly, verses 13-14 don't have anything to do with any Tribulation era Rapture.
Verse 15 tells us that those who are alive and remain(ing) (from the Tribulation) when the Lord returns will NOT precede or prevent those who are already asleep. That makes sense because they are dead and already in heaven with the Father and Son. So, no help there.
Verse 18 just tells us to comfort one another, so no help there. This leaves verses 16-17. Let's look again for a timing and/or to see if anyone is going to heaven in these verses. I'll use the KJV to make you happy:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Brother Chosen, help me. I can't see a timing here!!! I want to believe the Lord comes BEFORE the Tribulation but I can't find where the Bible teaches it. I want to believe we all get to put on our space suits and fly away to heaven and kick back while Satan is unleashed to tempt the world but I can't find this taught either. Help me!! I think we need to insert your charts here in 1 Thes 4, that would help. Are we allowed to do that?
Let's compare some key words to the Lord's actual return from the Lord's own mouth which HE (JESUS) tells us about HIS return. Can we find any similarities?
Mat 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I see CLOUDS, TRUMP OR TRUMPET (SINGULAR), ANGEL(S), GATHERING OR CATCHING UP, LORD HIMSELF OR SON OF MAN FROM HEAVEN. Paul refers to those being gathered as "Alive and Remain" which Christ calls them "HIS ELECT." ELECT sounds like a much stronger word implying that "THEY WERE CHOSEN and are a FINITE GROUP."
Is it possible that Paul and Christ were describing the same event and not two separate events separated by a period of Great Tribulation? There sure are a lot of similarities between the two events. If you were a detective Brother Chosen, could you rule out that these two passages are describing the same event?
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