Finneyists among us

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"...subsequent to the commencement of moral agency, and previous to regeneration, the moral depravity of mankind is universal."

"the moral depravity of the unregenerate is without any mixture of moral goodness or virtue, that while they remain unregenerate, they never in any instance or in any degree, exercise true love to God and to man."


C. G. Finney,
Lectures on Systematic Theology - pp 247, 248
(reprint of 1878 ed., Minneapolis, MN:
Bethany House Publishers, 1994)

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he also said that if a christian sinned after conversion (justification - though he never understood this), the regenerated christian fell back into that "moral depravity of the unregenerate......without any mixture of moral goodness or virtue".

and had to be "saved again".

no wonder Mahan said Finney's students were among the most burned-out and despairing lot he had ever encountered.
 
ID - one's primal reaction to the desires of the flesh (works of the flesh - the natural man) the desire to please / satiate the five senses; eye bait, ear bait, nose bait, tongue bait, touch bait
EGO - one's primal reaction to the desires of the mind, spirits or attitudes of man; De-mon - Pride, Envy, Gluttony, Sloth, Lust, Avarice, Wrath
SUPER-EGO - The database of principles and precepts of right living - i.e. the gospel - that monitors and regulates the Flesh and Mind Desires -- Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind

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well DA. when you're using godless Freudian concepts to define christianity, is this not like the world:confused:
lol DA...you're funny.

ego/id/super-ego....how about fallen depraved sinner - forgiven sinner regenerated and made new?:)
Uncle Siggy never knew this.
 
You either don't understand Finney's view on inherited, inherent corruption or you're being dishonest. In Finney's mind there was no such thing as a sinful nature inherited from Adam. Instead he said that the moral depravity of unregenerate men resulted from their own wrong moral choices. In other words, he said that their corruption came from sins they committed, rather than their committed sins coming from a corrupted, sinful nature.

Genesis 5:3
When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.

the good News!

1 Corinthians 15:49
And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
 
"...subsequent to the commencement of moral agency, and previous to regeneration, the moral depravity of mankind is universal."
"the moral depravity of the unregenerate is without any mixture of moral goodness or virtue, that while they remain unregenerate, they never in any instance or in any degree, exercise true love to God and to man."
C. G. Finney,
Lectures on Systematic Theology - pp 247, 248
(reprint of 1878 ed., Minneapolis, MN:
Bethany House Publishers, 1994)

The above better speaks for itself when including what preceded it:

"Moral depravity cannot consist in any attribute of nature or constitution, nor in any lapsed or fallen state of nature. . . . Moral depravity, as I use the term, does not consist in, nor imply a sinful nature, in the sense that the human soul is sinful in itself. It is not a constitutional sinfulness" [Systematic Theology, pg. 245].

So to Finney moral depravity was not an inherited, natural fallen condition, but simply a moral choice that all men have the ability to exercise.

"[Sinners] are under the necessity of first changing their hearts, or their choice of an end, before they can put forth any volitions to secure any other than a selfish end. And this is plainly the everywhere assumed philosophy of the Bible. That uniformly represents the unregenerate as totally depraved,[3] and calls upon them to repent, to make themselves a new heart" [Systematic Theology, 249].
 
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So to Finney moral depravity was not an inherited, natural fallen condition, but simply a moral choice that all men have the ability to exercise.

LOL:)
which again begs the question: from whence cometh the ability or desire to behave morally depraved? - GNOSTIC DUALISM.

like...Finney never thought out any of his stuff....,he was a church hater and reactionary.
innovative. and such a hero - why i do not know.
 
ID - one's primal reaction to the desires of the flesh (works of the flesh - the natural man) the desire to please / satiate the five senses; eye bait, ear bait, nose bait, tongue bait, touch bait
EGO - one's primal reaction to the desires of the mind, spirits or attitudes of man; De-mon - Pride, Envy, Gluttony, Sloth, Lust, Avarice, Wrath
SUPER-EGO - The database of principles and precepts of right living - i.e. the gospel - that monitors and regulates the Flesh and Mind Desires -- Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind

I don't do Freud; nor do I do moral law.
 
fallen man John Doe walks through red light district.
he is approached by working girls. tempted by them to sin.
he may or may not be interested.
he may be tempted and sin.
he may in fact be repulsed by the suggestion, yet have compassion on them.
that is fallen John Doe.

Sinless Perfect Jesus walks through red light district.
He is approached by working girls. tempted by them to sin.
is there a remote possibility Jesus Christ would be interested?

both men were tempted.
one man was also God.

the very suggestion, for example, that Jesus was tempted by/into homosexual desires (how something like this is possible if we believe Christ was without sin i don't know) is required for Him to understand the fallen human condition - being tempted in all points as we are - yet without sin just amazes me.

being tempted does not, for Jesus, imply in any way the leaning toward or remote inclination to sin.

it means He knows what it is to be tempted (i.e.) BY sinful people or satan to lust - not what it is like to lust.

the implication that God has experienced sin (been tempted BY SIN) is unspeakable.

i won't be discussing this beyond this post - each fallen human can ponder for themselves where the dividing line between a biological sexual impulse, and lust is.

Hebrews 4:14-16 (KJV) 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

touched - from <G4835> (sumpathes); to feel “sympathy” with, i.e. (by implication) to commiserate :- have compassion, be touched with a feeling of.

infirmity - from <G772> (asthenes); feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty :- disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness.


The only way to show true sympathy for someone's need is to have been there yourself.
 
LOL:)
which again begs the question: from whence cometh the ability or desire to behave morally depraved? - GNOSTIC DUALISM.

like...Finney never thought out any of his stuff....,he was a church hater and reactionary.
innovative. and such a hero - why i do not know.

According to Finney, Adam's sin acts as a bad moral example that disposes us to be selfish, which was Finney's definition of sin.

I think your last question answers itself.
 
I was hoping to see some commentary on Finney's lecture on grace cited earlier ... any comments folks?
Link to Lecture on Growth in Grace -->> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/77962-finneyists-among-us-5.html#post1272791

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FINNEY:

I. What is grace, as the term is here used?

1. Grace is favor. It is often used in the Bible to signify a free gift. The grace of God is the favor of God, His free gifts.

.......

THAYER:

The apostles and N. T. writers at the beginning and end of their Epistles crave for their readers the favor (`grace') of God or of Christ, to which all blessings, especially spiritual, are due: Romans 1:7; Romans 16:20, 24 (R G); 1 Corinthians 1:3; 1 Corinthians 16:23; 2 Corinthians 1:2; 2 Corinthians 13:13 (14); Galatians 1:3; Galatians 6:18; Ephesians 1:2; Ephesians 6:24; Philippians 1:2; Philippians 4:23; Colossians 1:2; Colossians 4:18; 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:28; 2 Thessalonians 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 3:18; 1 Timothy 1:2; 1 Timothy 6:21 (22); 2 Timothy 1:2; 2 Timothy 4:22: Titus 1:4; Titus 3:15; Philemon 1:3, 25; Hebrews 13:25; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 3:18 (cf. 3 a.); 2 John 1:3; Revelation 1:4; Revelation 22:21; cf. Otto, Ueber d. apostol. Segensgruss χάρις ὑμῖν etc., in the Jahrbb. f. deutsche Theol. for 1867, p. 678ff.

Moreover, the word χάρις contains the idea of kindness which bestows upon one what he has not deserved: Romans 11:6; hence, κατά χάριν and κατά ὀφείλημα are contrasted in Romans 4:4, 16; χάριτι and ἐξ ἔργων in Romans 11:6; κατ' ἀκλογην χάριτος, Romans 11:5; but the N. T. writers use χάρις pre-eminently of that kindness by which God bestow: favors even upon the ill-deserving, and grants to sinners the pardon of their offences, and bids them accept of eternal salvation through Christ: Romans 3:24; Romans 5:17, 20f; (); 1 Corinthians 15:10; Galatians 1:15; Galatians 2:21; Ephesians 1:6,(); f; Philippians 1:7; Colossians 1:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:16; 1 Timothy 1:14; 2 Timothy 1:9; Hebrews 2:9 (here Treg. marginal reading χωρίς); Hebrews 10:29; Hebrews 12:15; Hebrews 13:9; 1 Peter 1:10; Jude 1:4; εὑρίσκειν χάριν, Hebrews 4:16; ἡ χάρις τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡ σωτήριος, Titus 2:11; ὁ λόγος τῆς χάριτος,

....the message of his grace, Acts 14:3; Acts 20:32; τό εὐαγγέλιον τῆς χάριτος τοῦ Θεοῦ, Acts 20:24; it is styled 'the grace of Christ,' in that through pity for sinful men Christ left his state of blessedness with God in heaven, and voluntarily underwent the hardships and miseries of human life, and by his sufferings and death procured salvation for mankind: (Acts 15:11); 2 Corinthians 8:9; Romans 5:15; Galatians 1:6; (Titus 3:7); John 1:14, 17. χάρις is used of "the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues"

...

FINNEY:

IV. Conditions of growth in grace.

1. Growth or increase in anything implies a beginning. Growth in the favor of God implies that we have already found favor in his sight, and that we are already indebted for grace received, and that we are already in grace, in the sense of having a place among his favored ones.

2. Consequently, growth in grace implies that we have already repented of our sin, have actually and practically abandoned all known sin. It cannot be that we are in favor with God if we are still indulging in known sin against him. Being in favor with God implies, of course, that we are pardoned and favored by him, for the sake of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Pardon is favor, and implies the renunciation of rebellion against God. The conditions of the Divine favor, as revealed in the Bible, are repentance and abandonment of all known sin, and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. I said, as a condition of growth in grace, we must have the commencement of grace; in other words, we must be already Christians, must be in a state of acceptance with God, must have accepted Christ, so far as be is understood, must be in a state of obedience to all the recognized will of God. Without this, we cannot be in a state of grace, or in the favor of God. But being in this state, there is room for everlasting growth. As we know more of God, we shall be capable of loving him more, of having a more universal and implicit confidence in him. And there can be no end to this while we have any being, either in this or any other world. Our love and confidence in him may be complete, so far as we know him. This love and confidence will secure his favor; but there will be no end to our growth in knowledge of him, and, consequently, there is room for eternal growth in grace. The more we love, the more we believe, the more we know of God, if we conform to all this knowledge, the more God must be pleased with us, the higher shall we stand in his favor, and more and greater gifts he will continue to bestow upon us.

GROWTH IN GRACE by Charles G. Finney

...

GOD:

Romans 5
Peace with God Through Faith
1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faithb into this grace in which we stand, and wec rejoiced in hope of the glory of God. 3More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

6For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18Therefore, as one trespasse led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousnessf leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
As a reminder of audience context - Reference Link: "Lectures to Professing Christians" by Charles G. Finney (Introduction)

WHY IS THIS BOOK SEALED?

"Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom
of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."



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Lectures to Professing Christians
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Introduction

Charles G. Finney
1792-1875

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A Voice from the Philadelphian Church Age

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by Charles Grandison Finney
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DELIVERED IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK,
IN THE YEARS 1836 AND 1837.

FROM NOTES BY THE EDITOR OF THE NEW-YORK EVANGELIST.
REVISED BY THE AUTHOR.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
NEW YORK:
JOHN S. TAYLOR, BRICK CHURCH CHAPEL,
OPPOSITE THE CITY HALL.
- - - -
1837.

Entered according to act of Congress, in the year 1837,
by CHARLES G. FINNEY & JOSHUA LEAVITT,
In the Clerk's Office of the District Court for the Southern District of New York

PREFACE.

As these Lectures occupied from an hour and a quarter to an hour and three quarters in the delivery, it will be seen by their length, as here given, that the reporter took down but little more than a full skeleton of them. I have made but very slight alterations and additions in revising them, for the following reasons:

1. Their publication was determined on too late, so that I had very little time.

2. My ill health and multiplied duties forbade.

3. To have enlarged them much would have swelled the volume beyond the contemplated size.

4. From experience I have learned that the conversational and condensed style in which they were reported, is more interesting and edifying to common readers, than a more elevated and less laconic style.

I have, therefore, left them as they were reported, with a few verbal and trifling alterations.

The author of the Lectures has no claim to literary merit; and, if he knows his own heart, has no desire that the Lectures should be anything else than useful.

I have reason to believe that, upon the whole, they will be as much so in their present as under any other form I could give them, circumstanced as I am.

As my friends wish to have them in a volume, they must take them as they are.


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C. G. FINNEY

New York, 16th March 1837.
 
LOL:)
which again begs the question: from whence cometh the ability or desire to behave morally depraved? - GNOSTIC DUALISM.

like...Finney never thought out any of his stuff....,he was a church hater and reactionary.
innovative. and such a hero - why i do not know.

It's amazing..... this man already had so many faults, yet you vehemently strive to discredit him..... as if it was needed. Why not let the facts speak for themselves?

Whenever you post in any of these threads, it's obvious what your position on it is....... AGAINST WITH A VENGEANCE!

You seek high & low (mostly low) to find every negative website to make your case like a prosecuting attorney....guilty until proven innocent, & refuse to receive into evidence anything to the contrary. You can't be prosecutor AND judge AND jury. That would make you God.

While this man had many faults, I don't see him having more faults than Martin Luther. But you'll NEVER TOUCH HIM........this proves you're on a personal mission with personal motives.... not spiritual ones.
 
A Voice from the Philadelphian Church Age

??

this is that dispensational division of the 7 seven actual literal historical churches into different church ages?

see, that's why all the doom & gloomer revivalists - thinking the world had entered the Dispensation of the Lukewarm church.
:)

the phildelphian church age....right - more on that secret club - funny how threads are all pertinent.
SC tell its students they have the KEY (wink wink) that unlocks their entry into the Philadelphian Church
 
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While this man had many faults, I don't see him having more faults than Martin Luther. But you'll NEVER TOUCH HIM........this proves you're on a personal mission with personal motives.... not spiritual ones.


Luther's faults weren't fatal faults like Finney's were. Luther had faults, but Finney proclaimed another gospel.
 
May the historians continue their analysis; it is needed. My purpose is to review his doctrine in one area, justification. If Finney is "America's Greatest Revivalist", [1] his evangel invites and deserves examination. But I expect the reader to find the views of Finney presented here incredible. One seminary professor found that the only way to get his students to believe that what he represented as being Finney's doctrine, was to have the students read Finney directly and experience the surprise on their own. I did expect an Arminian theology, but I did not expect the work of Christ on the cross to be removed as the basis of justification, and the obedience of Christ replaced by the sinner's. Thus the direct reading of Finney is strongly urged. Many quotations and references will be provided here to support this analysis of his teaching, but those should be an incentive to look at this man's teaching and influence much more carefully.

I am reviewing mainly Lecture 25 on Justification, in Finney's Systematic Theology, pages 360-377 in the 1994 Bethany House publication.[2]

Charles Finney's Doctrine of Justification
 
??

this is that dispensational division of the 7 seven actual literal historical churches into different church ages?

see, that's why all the doom & gloomer revivalists - thinking the world had entered the Dispensation of the Lukewarm church.
:)

the phildelphian church age....right - more on that secret club - funny how threads are all pertinent.
SC tell its students they have the KEY (wink wink) that unlocks their entry into the Philadelphian Church


THE AGE

The Philadelphia Church Age lasted from 1750 to about 1906. This age, due to the meaning of the name of the city, has been called The Age of Brotherly Love, as Philadelphia means, "love of brethren".

THE MESSENGER

The messenger to this age was without doubt John Wesley.

CHAPTER EIGHT
THE PHILADELPHIAN CHURCH AGE
The Philadelphian Church Age - 1

Our ministry began as a radio broadcast in the early 1970's airing the sermons of Reverend William Branham on stations throughout North America and Africa for eight years.
Cloverdale Bibleway

296-4 The key of David. Was not David the king of Israel–all Israel? And is not Jesus the Son of David according to the fact that He will sit upon the throne of David in the millennium and reign and rule over His heritage? Surely. So the key of David signifies that it is Jesus Who will bring in the millennium. He Who has the keys to death and hell will raise up His own that they may share in His reign of righteousness upon the earth.
The Philadelphian Church Age | William Branham
 
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DEMONS, STRONGHOLDS, DEFENSE MECHANISMS:

Reference to a thread on ChristianChat.com: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/29681-defense-mechanisms.html

In psychology and logic, rationalization (also known as making excuses) is a defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors or feelings are logically justified and explained in a rational or logical manner in order to avoid any true explanation, and are made consciously tolerable – or even admirable and superior – by plausible means. Rationalization encourages irrational or unacceptable behavior, motives, or feelings and often involves ad hoc hypothesizing. This process ranges from fully conscious (e.g. to present an external defense against ridicule from others) to mostly subconscious (e.g. to create a block against internal feelings of guilt).

Rationalization (making excuses) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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??

this is that dispensational division of the 7 seven actual literal historical churches into different church ages?

see, that's why all the doom & gloomer revivalists - thinking the world had entered the Dispensation of the Lukewarm church.
:)

the phildelphian church age....right - more on that secret club - funny how threads are all pertinent.
SC tell its students they have the KEY (wink wink) that unlocks their entry into the Philadelphian Church

Yeah... you know a lot about secret clubs (wink wink)