Distinctives of Dispensationalism

[GreenNnice]

eh....

who is the Most Holy?

Who was cut off [from the land of the living]?

so hasn't this been fulfilled yet either?

Isaiah 53:8
By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished.

YES, 'He was cut off,' ohzone, but, do you see where 'He, who is Jesus Christ, The Lamb, is mentioned in Daniel 9 verses you posted ? 'He' is not there mentioned anywhere in those verses, milady. No 'where.'

who is THIS TALKING ABOUT then?
A FUTURE ANTICHRIST MAKING A PEACE TREATY?

for the transgression of my people he was punished

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.



do you know how close to blasphemy you get when you attribute Daniel 9 to satan or some antichrist?

.........................

The time of the Great Tribulation will be a time that gets more and more corrupt as the events of seals and horses and bowls get plagued on all the land as years 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 happen.

This will be a debriding time of life on Earth, including, almost immediately into the 7-year time of tribulation , the removal by God of 1/.3 (that's around 3 billion people, by today's count of the living in the world ! But, a number will be part of The Rapture before the Great Tribulation so that # is less than 3 billion some ) of the Earth's population.

This IS the time of the reconciliation and the transgressions being done, of iniquity being cleaned out, 70 WEEKS , ohzone. Daniel 9's words are NOT talking about Christ at all, just as I say in my green, large font of words, where do you see of it's talk of 'He.' No 'where.'

ohzone: Who is the Most Holy?


The Most Holy is Christ and He is NOT being sacrificed at this END of the Great Tribulation time period as spoken of in Daniel 9, He is being anointed

 

[zone]

TO DISPENSATIONALISTS:

IS THIS TEACHING BY GREEN ACCURATE?

.........................

The time of the Great Tribulation will be a time that gets more and more corrupt as the events of seals and horses and bowls get plagued on all the land as years 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 happen.

This will be a debriding time of life on Earth, including, almost immediately into the 7-year time of tribulation , the removal by God of 1/.3 (that's around 3 billion people, by today's count of the living in the world ! But, a number will be part of The Rapture before the Great Tribulation so that # is less than 3 billion some ) of the Earth's population.

This IS the time of the reconciliation and the transgressions being done, of iniquity being cleaned out, 70 WEEKS , ohzone. Daniel 9's words are NOT talking about Christ at all, just as I say in my green, large font of words, where do you see of it's talk of 'He.' No 'where.'

ohzone: Who is the Most Holy?

The Most Holy is Christ and He is NOT being sacrificed at this END of the Great Tribulation time period as spoken of in Daniel 9, He is being anointed

HUH?
WHAT?

here's the chapter.
do you know where daniel was? why they were there?
what was the promise for the time of release from captivity?
did it happen?

was it:

1) some of them returned home and rebuilt the Temple and Jesus was born; lived and died; AND ROSE AGAIN for THEM and the whole world.

2) nothing happened after week 69 when all the building and stuff was done, because the prophetic clock stopped at week 69. Jesus isn't mentioned as crucified in Daniel 9, SOMEONE IS CUT OFF....BUT WE CAN'T FIND ANY OTHER REFERTENCES TO A MOST HOLY REDEEMER BEING CUT OFF SO that means he wasn't cut off at all. which mean we're not saved, just like 'Israel"



Daniel 9
Daniel's Prayer for his People
1In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; 2In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. 3And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: 4And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; 5We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments: 6Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

7O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee. 8O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee. 9To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him; 10Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. 12And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem. 13As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth. 14Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

15And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly. 16O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us. 17Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake. 18O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies. 19O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

Gabriel's Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks
20And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate



Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city.

70 weeks.

is this prophecy highly time specific?
was it 70 weeks? or some Mystery Gap?

 

[zone]

This will be a debriding time of life on Earth, including, almost immediately into the 7-year time of tribulation , the removal by God of 1/.3 (that's around 3 billion people, by today's count of the living in the world ! But, a number will be part of The Rapture before the Great Tribulation so that # is less than 3 billion some ) of the Earth's population.

This IS the time of the reconciliation and the transgressions being done, of iniquity being cleaned out, 70 WEEKS , ohzone. Daniel 9's words are NOT talking about Christ at all, just as I say in my green, large font of words, where do you see of it's talk of 'He.' No 'where.'

so, the TRIBULATION, which you won't be here for, is the "time of the reconciliation and the transgressions being done, of iniquity being cleaned out"

how did you get to HEAVEN in the rapture without a prior "time of the reconciliation and the transgressions being done, of iniquity being cleaned out"

??

how were YOU reconciled to God if Daniel 9 isn't fulfilled?


ANYBODY?
help me out here.

 

[1still_waters]

I can haz a quesh ton.
YO k. Hear it goze..

I'm noticing these assertions by some.

1. The great tribulation is future, and will be the worst time ever in world history.
2. The great tribulation which is future will be followed by a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on this Earth, then after that the dead are resurrected.

K.

Here we goooze

The flood ended with about two handfuls of people left on the Earth after it. I don't recall the exact number. That's not the point. Ok if the great tribulation is gonna be worse than any other event on Earth, then there will be fewer survivors than the flood.

And if the millennial reign is after this tribulation, then Jesus will be reigning over fewer people than survived the flood. I mean the resurrection IS after the 1000 years. So the only ones left are those who make it through the tribulation right? And since it's worse than even the flood, then there won't be many left to rule and reign over.

Now some may say..KNOW KNOW KNOW.ewe haz it wrong..Sea..the resurrected will reign in the 1000 years.

Yeah but 1 Cor 15 says..

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Death gets destroyed AFTER all are under his feet.
There is still a fight after the 1000 years.

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison [SUP]8 [/SUP]and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. [SUP]9 [/SUP]They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

That is if you interpret things like a dispensationalist.


Thank you n good night..

 

[JesusChica1991]

I can haz a quesh ton.
YO k. Hear it goze..

I'm noticing these assertions by some.

1. The great tribulation is future, and will be the worst time ever in world history.
2. The great tribulation which is future will be followed by a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on this Earth, then after that the dead are resurrected.

K.

Here we goooze

The flood ended with about two handfuls of people left on the Earth after it. I don't recall the exact number. That's not the point. Ok if the great tribulation is gonna be worse than any other event on Earth, then there will be fewer survivors than the flood.

And if the millennial reign is after this tribulation, then Jesus will be reigning over fewer people than survived the flood. I mean the resurrection IS after the 1000 years. So the only ones left are those who make it through the tribulation right? And since it's worse than even the flood, then there won't be many left to rule and reign over.

Now some may say..KNOW KNOW KNOW.ewe haz it wrong..Sea..the resurrected will reign in the 1000 years.

Yeah but 1 Cor 15 says..

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Death gets destroyed AFTER all are under his feet.
There is still a fight after the 1000 years.



That is if you interpret things like a dispensationalist.


Thank you n good night..

View attachment 63757

As a former dispensationalist and presently leaning towards preterism, this post absolutely made me laugh out loud. So, thank you. Carry on, folks.

 

[SarahM777]

No speculation Sarah. I base it on what the Scriptures teach.


Stop ignoring the context. Read and study Revelation 11.


And then compare it with 2 Thess. 2.

I have Chosen, I have read it over and over and over. I can not for the life of me see a THIRD TEMPLE BUILT BY HUMAN HANDS in that passage.

 

[zone]

As a former dispensationalist and presently leaning towards preterism, this post absolutely made me laugh out loud. So, thank you. Carry on, folks.

JesusChica1991,

when you were studying/believing/taught dispensationalism....what were you taught the Millennium is FOR?
what were you taught happens during it?

 

[zone]

Dispensationalism's REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE.

where can i find this?
what's the idea behind it?

here's a basic map.
is the 10 toes part of the revived roman Empire?

would that be the ten regions of Christ's Day?

how will that work?
how many regions does the EU currently have?

is it Roman?

 

[maxwel]

Purpose of the Millennium.

The millennium is a special time that exists SOLEY for the repentance of amillennialsts.
The reason it lasts for a thousand years is because amillennialists are stubborn.

 

[JesusChica1991]

Purpose of the Millennium.

The millennium is a special time that exists SOLEY for the repentance of amillennialsts.
The reason it lasts for a thousand years is because amillennialists are stubborn.

HEYYYYYYY!! Not sure if serious or witty XD

 

[SarahM777]

very very cool.
i mean the info - not the bad things that happened to our family.

It does show a whole different light on to that time frame doesn't it? Jesus did warn us those things would happen.
But never mind that those things are not really the fulfillment of what John was talking it about.
Never mind mind Peter tells us this which is NEVER brought up yet it points to the end

2 Peter 3

Dear friends,(A) this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders(B) to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets(C) and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.(D)
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days(E) scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.(F) 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised?(G) Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”(H) 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word(I) the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.(J) 6 By these waters also the world of that time(K) was deluged and destroyed.(L) 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire,(M) being kept for the day of judgment(N) and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.(O) 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise,(P) as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient(Q) with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.(R)
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief.(S) The heavens will disappear with a roar;(T) the elements will be destroyed by fire,(U) and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a](V)

Never mind Jesus says this

Matthew 24

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.(AN) 37 As it was in the days of Noah,(AO) so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,(AP) up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.(AQ) 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.(AR) 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.(AS)

Luke repeats that.

 

[SarahM777]

Dispensationalism's REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE.

where can i find this?
what's the idea behind it?

here's a basic map.
is the 10 toes part of the revived roman Empire?

would that be the ten regions of Christ's Day?

how will that work?
how many regions does the EU currently have?

is it Roman?

The EU has 27 countries at this time.

 

[zone]

Purpose of the Millennium.

The millennium is a special time that exists SOLEY for the repentance of amillennialsts.
The reason it lasts for a thousand years is because amillennialists are stubborn.

LOL MAXWEL

 

[SarahM777]

Purpose of the Millennium.

The millennium is a special time that exists SOLEY for the repentance of amillennialsts.
The reason it lasts for a thousand years is because amillennialists are stubborn.

Are you sure that it's not pre-millennialists that are stubborn?

 

[JesusChica1991]

JesusChica1991,

when you were studying/believing/taught dispensationalism....what were you taught the Millennium is FOR?
what were you taught happens during it?

I used to follow a page on Facebook called Now The End Begins. (don't do it. They'll kick you off for not conforming to their belief system.) I also used to subscribe to the same beliefs as Hagee, Van Impee, the Left Behind series (it's fiction for a reason ya'll),...pretty much what Darbyism promoted...

--that the Rapture would happen
--7 years of tribulation
--2nd coming
--millenial era...taken literally to mean Christ would physically reign exactly 1000 years and the Devil was temporarily locked up
--Satan sets off fireworks again
--Great Judgment when Satan/Devil is cast into Hell 'cause he's a loser.
--Christ iz a winner ferever!

That's what I used to believe. I got bad enough to where I even thought that Christ would come back in 2018 as his 2nd coming because the most literal dispensationalists believed that Christ would return a generation after Israel became a state. Van Impe usually uses the logic of 1948+70 (because an average generation is 70 years)=2018...minus the 7 years for tribulation...so he literally would convict everyone the Rapture would happen in 2011. He swore he didn't try to set dates though. Hence why I then thought the whole system was fishy. I used to be a devout watcher of his show on his website. But I've come out of the closet in my beliefs and I'm now persuades to be a preterist/amillenialist. There are beliefs of each of them which have logical and biblical support...and they make much more sense to me. Also as a dispensationalist, we kept looking at horrible events to see if they were truly signs of the end times...hence the page name that I used to be a part of on Facebook. It became an unhealthy obsession but since then I've been trained in a better school of thought! Dispensationalism leads to high levels of pessimism with the world. I know it because I've been through it. It's a strong belief I avoid now.

 

[1still_waters]

K.I haz another question.
Why in duh world would n e won think references to temples were about the past one, and not about some future one?

Matt 24
4 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. [SUP]2 [/SUP]“Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Mark 13
13 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”

[SUP]2 [/SUP]“Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Luke 21
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, [SUP]6 [/SUP]“As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”

Jesus mentioned "these things" "you see here" "these great buildings" in reference to the very temple and stones they saw. We know those things he referenced, were destroyed in 70ad. Jesus wasn't pointing to non-existent buildings that didn't exist yet. He said those building/stones/etc. And those were destroyed in 70ad.

So why would we think the temple in Rev 11 references that?
Well because of how Rev 1 starts.

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[SUP][a][/SUP] the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant[SUP][b][/SUP] John, [SUP]2 [/SUP]who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Rev 11

11 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, [SUP]2 [/SUP]but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Ok, so the very stones/buildings of the temple Jesus pointed at were taken down in 70ad.
The temple events of Rev 11 were told to be done soon and near to the original readers. That very book mentions a temple and city being trodden over.

That's why some folks don't see a future temple. All references to a temple we see appear to point back to the same stones Jesus was pointing at. All references point to a time that was near/soon to them.

 

[JesusChica1991]

But stilly! haven't you heard? The dedication of the Third Temple | JPost | Israel News i kid.

K.I haz another question.
Why in duh world would n e won think references to temples were about the past one, and not about some future one?







Jesus mentioned "these things" "you see here" "these great buildings" in reference to the very temple and stones they saw. We know those things he referenced, were destroyed in 70ad. Jesus wasn't pointing to non-existent buildings that didn't exist yet. He said those building/stones/etc. And those were destroyed in 70ad.

So why would we think the temple in Rev 11 references that?
Well because of how Rev 1 starts.





Ok, so the very stones/buildings of the temple Jesus pointed at were taken down in 70ad.
The temple events of Rev 11 were told to be done soon and near to the original readers. That very book mentions a temple and city being trodden over.

That's why some folks don't see a future temple. All references to a temple we see appear to point back to the same stones Jesus was pointing at. All references point to a time that was near/soon to them.

 

[zone]

The EU has 27 countries at this time.

hmmm....so the revived Roman Empire is actually not Ten of something, but 27....or One, since it's a Union.

is that where the Revived Roman Empire comes from?
tsk...i'll look....


Revived Roman Empire

The European Union is rapidly fulfilling prophecy in becoming the prophesied revived Roman Empire, the final worldly kingdom of human history. According to prophecy, this kingdom will give rise to an ecumenical and apostate religion, a global government, and a global economy. Out of this kingdom will arise the most evil dictator ever known to man - the Antichrist.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast." Revelation 17:12-13

BACKGROUND

The Prophet Daniel, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, provides us with very detailed information on the rise and fall of four worldly kingdoms, from the time of his life, until that glorious day when Jesus Christ will return to reign His millennial kingdom on earth. From the Book of Daniel, the four prophesied kingdoms are as follows:

The Babylonian Empire under Nebuchadnezzar
The Medo-Persian Empire
The Macedonian Empire under Alexander The Great
The Roman Empire
Daniel tells us that there will be a future revival of the Roman Empire in the area of Europe and parts of the Middle East. This revived Roman Empire, the fourth beast of Daniel"s prophetic vision, is portrayed as the ten toes of the great image in the dream of King Nebuchadnezzar, ruler of Babylonia.

These scriptures from Daniel reveal the fourth beast, or kingdom, of his vision:

"After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." Daniel 7:7-8

"Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings." Daniel 7:23-24.

The fourth beast is the revived Roman Empire, and the 10 horns represent the Kings of its member nations. The little horn, speaking great words, rises up and conquers three of those nations and their Kings. The little horn is Antichrist, who will rise to power through the revived Roman Empire. Of the 10 horns, three are subdued, likely because these three will resist the rise to power of Antichrist, and will object to his far-reaching powers. From this kingdom, and the reign of Antichrist," a global system of apostate religion, politics, and economics will come to fruition. Antichrist will temporarily rule over the entire earth during the three and one-half years of the Great Tribulation.

Revived Roman Empire - Abc's of Prophecy

okay....so Daniel 7 is supposedly future (4th beast rome)...which is the basis for making Daniel 9 future (?)

 

[ChosenbyHim]

I have Chosen, I have read it over and over and over. I can not for the life of me see a THIRD TEMPLE BUILT BY HUMAN HANDS in that passage.

Well then you may need to understand the proper timing of Daniel's 70th week then.

Because It takes place aftee the rapture.

 

[Yahshua]

The Messiah is Israel.

He is the true vine to which all branches are attached (whether natural or wild). In scripture, Israel is called God’s “firstborn son” (Exodus 4:22), Christ is God’s firstborn son (of the dead), so Christ is “Israel”. He alone is the inheritor of the promise made to Abraham, and consequently anyone connected to him (whether natural or wild) is also equal inheritor.

So how can a people rightfully establish a commonwealth without the king who bears that commonwealth’s name and royal birthright? It is only in the heir that such a commonwealth can be established, WHEN that heir comes...and all attached branches will be equal partakers of that inheritance. One can not establish a commonwealth *independent* of the heir who rightfully possesses it.

Matthew 21:33-46

There was a certain householder [God], which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower [The fertile land of Israel], and let it out to tenants [Natural Branches of Israel Proper], and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants, that they might receive the fruits of it.

And the tenants took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. [These assaulted people represented The prophets]

But last of all he sent unto them his son [The Messiah], saying, They will reverence my son. But when the tenants saw the son, they said among themselves, "This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance." And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. [Killed Christ]

When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those tenants? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men [judgment/Punishment of the Natural Branches], and will let out his vineyard [The land of Israel] unto other tenants [gentiles will possess the land], which shall render him the fruits in their seasons [fullness of gentiles].

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, "The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?" Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you [natural branches], and given to a nation [wild branches] bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet

Next, Christ prophesies in detail (to his disciples) about what will happen to those “tenants” who've rejected him. Note the same theme of events.

Luke 21:20-24

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation [“Abomination of Desolation”; Matthew 24:15] is near.

21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written [OLD TESTAMENT; Deut 28:15-68 esp. v46].

23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Notice it's the same theme as the parable: Rejection of Christ, "Natural branches" removed from the land, and land is possessed by Gentiles...and this prophecy was to occur BECAUSE OF Christ's rejection. Also notice that this is Christ HIMSELF pronouncing judgment on them.

So now we need to figure out how long the gentiles would trample the land. When does this prophetic punishment reach its end? Well since this passage explains the same thing as Matthew 24, we know it’s talking about Daniel’s abomination that “empties” (i.e. makes desolate) the land of the natural branches. Daniel 9:24-27.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troubled times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself [i.e. the rejection & betrayal by the Natural Branches]: and the people of the prince that shall come [i.e. the *Messiah’s* people, in context] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations [i.e. the “emptying” of the natural branches from the land] are determined.

27 And he [Messiah the Prince] shall confirm the covenant [the New Covenant] with many for one week [the last week; Passover week]: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the [sin] sacrifice and the oblation to cease [the daily oblation was to sacrifice an animal day and night and to keep the menorah burning constantly, but after Christ no more animal sacrifices were required], and for the overspreading of abominations he [Messiah the Prince] shall make it desolate [i.e. “empty” it of the natural branches], even until the consummation [i.e. marriage supper of the lamb], and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This passage says AFTER the Messiah is cut off and UNTIL the consummation, he sentences the land to be “desolate” of the natural branches, those who were its *original* tenants...and scripture can’t be broken. The land inheritance was taken away from the natural tenants. They no longer currently possess it to this day. Again, scripture can't be broken.

So after Christ’s parable and Christ’s prophecy and Daniel’s explained vision...you have to ask yourself...who are the people currently in the land if the land was to remain empty/desolate of the natural branches until the marriage supper at the end of the age? Are those in the land the "natural branches" (the original keepers of the fruitful vineyard)...or are they a gentile nation the land was given to until the marriage supper, who are now bearing the fruits thereof in the mean time?

Whether old covenant or new, a gentile nation can’t be punished for not keeping a covenant they never made with God to begin with.

We're currently at the tail end of Daniel's prophecy in chapter 9...the desolation/emptiness of the "natural branches" from the land.