Why wouldn't the answers to those question not go with dispensationalism? They would need to be addressed by the very system that is being proposed. Either the answers fit or they don't. You can't have it both ways. Or is the real reason that that no one who proposes dispensationalism can't really address those verses is because they don't fit and it causes a problem?
Distinctives of Dispensationalism
- Thread starter zone
- Start date
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Many in the Tribulation period will know nothing of the return of Christ. They will not be looking for His coming. Christ comes at the end of the Great Tribulation--the latter 3 1/2 years. It seems very clear there's a build-up with seals, trumpets, bowls. While many believers will be looking at these signs, many will not be, there doesn't seem to be any question about that. As to the 1/3 of sunlight being darkened, this could be the sun and moon shining for 1/3 less time during the day and night, or with 1/3 less power. I'm sure this would be very calamitous to agriculture and energy in general, which is why this time period is shortened.
As to all the previous posts on preterism, I think it's entirely possible that John referenced some events as pictures of what was to come in the future. Daniel did the same thing with Antioches Epiphanes, he abominated the temple 200 years before Christ and this was a picture of the future abomination of desolation Jesus and Paul spoke of. John can be speaking in the same way, although I'm not convinced of the early date of Revelation, the evidence that Laodicea was completely destroyed in AD 66 is severely lacking, in my opinion.
As to all the previous posts on preterism, I think it's entirely possible that John referenced some events as pictures of what was to come in the future. Daniel did the same thing with Antioches Epiphanes, he abominated the temple 200 years before Christ and this was a picture of the future abomination of desolation Jesus and Paul spoke of. John can be speaking in the same way, although I'm not convinced of the early date of Revelation, the evidence that Laodicea was completely destroyed in AD 66 is severely lacking, in my opinion.
K
Dispensate this. God sent His son to die on a cross so that you might be saved. I mean a 5 year old can understand, Why do we make it so difficult. Where else can you turn, save Christ and Him crucified. Do you rely on your own actions? God will not accept that. It is impossible to please God without faith. Faith in what? Christ and Him crucified and nothing else. Go to theology for twenty years and maybe you can see what a 5 year old can see.
B
doubt it.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/62123-israel-god-13.html#post1289462
260 & 261
i know you'll (not) read them.
260 & 261
i know you'll (not) read them.
figures of speech....ex:
Genesis 37
8Then his brothers said to him, "Are you actually going to reign over us? Or are you really going to rule over us?" So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words. 9Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, "Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me." 10He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?"…
Revelation 12:4
Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.
...
Daniel 8
9Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land. 10It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.
Antiochus Epiphanes grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and trampled them down
1 Maccabees 1:11–15
11 In those days certain renegades came out from Israel and misled many, saying, “Let us go and make a covenant with the Gentiles around us, for since we separated from them many disasters have come upon us.” 12 This proposal pleased them, 13 and some of the people eagerly went to the king, who authorized them to observe the ordinances of the Gentiles. 14 So they built a gymnasium in Jerusalem, according to Gentile custom, 15 and removed the marks of circumcision, and abandoned the holy covenant. They joined with the Gentiles and sold themselves to do evil.
...
The name Maccabee[14] is often used as a synonym for the entire Hasmonean Dynasty, but the Maccabees proper were Judah Maccabee and his four brothers
Maccabees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Hasmonean dynasty[2] (Hebrew: חשמונאים, r Ḥashmona'im; Audio) was the ruling dynasty of Judea and surrounding regions during classical antiquity. Between c. 140 and c. 116 BC, the dynasty ruled semi-autonomously from the Seleucids in the region of Judea. From 110 BC, with the Seleucid empire disintegrating, the dynasty became fully independent, expanded into the neighbouring regions of Galilee, Iturea, Perea, Idumea and Samaria, and took the title "basileus". Some modern scholars refer to this period as an independent kingdom of Israel.[3]
In 63 BC, the kingdom was conquered by the Roman Republic, broken up and set up as a Roman client state. The Kingdom had survived for 103 years before yielding to the Herodian Dynasty in 37 BC. Even then, Herod the Great tried to bolster the legitimacy of his reign by marrying a Hasmonean princess, Mariamne, and planning to drown the last male Hasmonean heir at his Jericho palace.
Hasmonean dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Genesis 37
8Then his brothers said to him, "Are you actually going to reign over us? Or are you really going to rule over us?" So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words. 9Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, "Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me." 10He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?"…
Revelation 12:4
Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.
...
Daniel 8
9Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land. 10It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.
Antiochus Epiphanes grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and trampled them down
1 Maccabees 1:11–15
11 In those days certain renegades came out from Israel and misled many, saying, “Let us go and make a covenant with the Gentiles around us, for since we separated from them many disasters have come upon us.” 12 This proposal pleased them, 13 and some of the people eagerly went to the king, who authorized them to observe the ordinances of the Gentiles. 14 So they built a gymnasium in Jerusalem, according to Gentile custom, 15 and removed the marks of circumcision, and abandoned the holy covenant. They joined with the Gentiles and sold themselves to do evil.
...
The name Maccabee[14] is often used as a synonym for the entire Hasmonean Dynasty, but the Maccabees proper were Judah Maccabee and his four brothers
Maccabees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Hasmonean dynasty[2] (Hebrew: חשמונאים, r Ḥashmona'im; Audio) was the ruling dynasty of Judea and surrounding regions during classical antiquity. Between c. 140 and c. 116 BC, the dynasty ruled semi-autonomously from the Seleucids in the region of Judea. From 110 BC, with the Seleucid empire disintegrating, the dynasty became fully independent, expanded into the neighbouring regions of Galilee, Iturea, Perea, Idumea and Samaria, and took the title "basileus". Some modern scholars refer to this period as an independent kingdom of Israel.[3]
In 63 BC, the kingdom was conquered by the Roman Republic, broken up and set up as a Roman client state. The Kingdom had survived for 103 years before yielding to the Herodian Dynasty in 37 BC. Even then, Herod the Great tried to bolster the legitimacy of his reign by marrying a Hasmonean princess, Mariamne, and planning to drown the last male Hasmonean heir at his Jericho palace.
Hasmonean dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A Roman Catholic article by Eugene Fisher, entitled “The Church’s Teaching on Supersessionism,” attacks the Protestant view of the necessity of converting from Judaism to Christianity[2]:
For Catholics, the era in which it was possible to espouse any theory that the Christian Church has ‘superseded’ or ‘replaced’ the Jewish people as God’s Chosen People in the history of salvation ended definitively on October 28, 1965. On that day the world’s Catholic bishops, together with the bishop of Rome, Pope Paul VI, signed the declaration, Noastra Aetate (In Our Time), of the Second Vatican Council.
Fisher continues:
The destruction of the Temple and the Diaspora are not to be utilized polemically as a proof of divine punishment from Jewish ‘failure’ to ‘recognize’ Jesus. Rather, the Jewish ‘no’ is properly understood as a ‘yes’ to God’s continuing call to them. Jewish refusal to convert to Christianity is not to be understood as anything less than a faithful witness to God.
REFORMED
wait......what
The destruction of the Temple and the Diaspora are not to be utilized polemically as a proof of divine punishment
from Jewish ‘failure’ to ‘recognize’ Jesus.
Rather, the Jewish ‘no’ is properly understood as a ‘yes’ to God’s continuing call to them.
Jewish refusal to convert to Christianity is not to be understood as anything less than a faithful witness to God
oh thats the Faithful Old Testament Wineskin Jews (One of The Two Witnesses of God) who Jesus decided not to pour the New Covenant Wine into....else they would EXPLODE...they are saved as is.
....
Two Witnesses
CHAPTER 6
Revelation is a New Testament book, and a New Testament definition for olive trees appears in Romans 11. According to that whole chapter, the Gentile church is one olive tree, and the Jewish people are the other. As a result ...
One witness is the Jewish people
and the other witness is the Gentile church!
(GENTILE CHURCH)
...How most of the children of the ten dispersed tribes migrated to Europe is a story recorded by others.1
1
To avoid any suggestion that the author is using material which is conjectural or lacks
red-letter accreditation, only common historic knowledge and the Bible itself were used
to support the conclusions in this chapter. However, for those interested in pursuing this
line of study, here are a few books on the subject: One Man’s Destiny, C.R. Dickey
(Merrimac MA, Destiny Publishing); Missing Links Discovered in Assyrian Tablets, E.
Raymond Capt (Thousand Oaks, CA, Artisan Sales); The Royal House of Britain and
Enduring Dynasties, W. H. M. Milner (Windsor, Ontario, Canadian-British Israelite
Association.)
http://www.ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFP-2Ed.pdf
oh ya...British Israelism again.
all the yammerers against REPLACEMENT theology are themselves replacing JEWS by claiming to be ISRAEL.
oh what fun
For Catholics, the era in which it was possible to espouse any theory that the Christian Church has ‘superseded’ or ‘replaced’ the Jewish people as God’s Chosen People in the history of salvation ended definitively on October 28, 1965. On that day the world’s Catholic bishops, together with the bishop of Rome, Pope Paul VI, signed the declaration, Noastra Aetate (In Our Time), of the Second Vatican Council.
Fisher continues:
The destruction of the Temple and the Diaspora are not to be utilized polemically as a proof of divine punishment from Jewish ‘failure’ to ‘recognize’ Jesus. Rather, the Jewish ‘no’ is properly understood as a ‘yes’ to God’s continuing call to them. Jewish refusal to convert to Christianity is not to be understood as anything less than a faithful witness to God.
REFORMED
wait......what
The destruction of the Temple and the Diaspora are not to be utilized polemically as a proof of divine punishment
from Jewish ‘failure’ to ‘recognize’ Jesus.
Rather, the Jewish ‘no’ is properly understood as a ‘yes’ to God’s continuing call to them.
Jewish refusal to convert to Christianity is not to be understood as anything less than a faithful witness to God
oh thats the Faithful Old Testament Wineskin Jews (One of The Two Witnesses of God) who Jesus decided not to pour the New Covenant Wine into....else they would EXPLODE...they are saved as is.
....
Two Witnesses
CHAPTER 6
Revelation is a New Testament book, and a New Testament definition for olive trees appears in Romans 11. According to that whole chapter, the Gentile church is one olive tree, and the Jewish people are the other. As a result ...
One witness is the Jewish people
and the other witness is the Gentile church!
(GENTILE CHURCH
)...How most of the children of the ten dispersed tribes migrated to Europe is a story recorded by others.1
1
To avoid any suggestion that the author is using material which is conjectural or lacks
red-letter accreditation, only common historic knowledge and the Bible itself were used
to support the conclusions in this chapter. However, for those interested in pursuing this
line of study, here are a few books on the subject: One Man’s Destiny, C.R. Dickey
(Merrimac MA, Destiny Publishing); Missing Links Discovered in Assyrian Tablets, E.
Raymond Capt (Thousand Oaks, CA, Artisan Sales); The Royal House of Britain and
Enduring Dynasties, W. H. M. Milner (Windsor, Ontario, Canadian-British Israelite
Association.)
http://www.ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFP-2Ed.pdf
oh ya...British Israelism again.
all the yammerers against REPLACEMENT theology are themselves replacing JEWS by claiming to be ISRAEL.
oh what fun
C. Nicky Blackford, a United Methodist pastor, wrote to BAR:
It always saddens me to read of Christians and ministerial colleagues whose theology has not advanced beyond the Middle Ages. Nicola Grenci, a fellow United Methodist minister, wrote in the March/April 1991 issue that the Jews must accept the Christian covenant to be accepted by God. It seems important for me to say that such a god is not the God that most of us worship.... I have not doubt that my Jewish friends have a vital relationship with the God I serve.[3]
REFORMED
...
Dual-covenant theology is a Christian view of the Old Covenant which holds that Jews may simply keep the "Law of Moses", because of the "everlasting covenant" (Genesis 17:13) between Abraham and God expressed in the Hebrew Bible, whereas Gentiles (those not Jews or Jewish proselytes) must convert to Christianity or alternatively accept the Seven Laws of Noah to be assured of a place in the World to Come.
Many forms of Christianity, especially Conservative Protestants, consider this view to be heresy.
Dual-covenant theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
...
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
It always saddens me to read of Christians and ministerial colleagues whose theology has not advanced beyond the Middle Ages. Nicola Grenci, a fellow United Methodist minister, wrote in the March/April 1991 issue that the Jews must accept the Christian covenant to be accepted by God. It seems important for me to say that such a god is not the God that most of us worship.... I have not doubt that my Jewish friends have a vital relationship with the God I serve.[3]
REFORMED
...
Dual-covenant theology is a Christian view of the Old Covenant which holds that Jews may simply keep the "Law of Moses", because of the "everlasting covenant" (Genesis 17:13) between Abraham and God expressed in the Hebrew Bible, whereas Gentiles (those not Jews or Jewish proselytes) must convert to Christianity or alternatively accept the Seven Laws of Noah to be assured of a place in the World to Come.
Many forms of Christianity, especially Conservative Protestants, consider this view to be heresy.
Dual-covenant theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
...
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
It seems that the thing currently in vogue in intellectual circles is the seeking and finding of anti-Semitism. It seems the uprooting of anti-Semitism has such priority that, if need be, basic Christian doctrine can be jettisoned. If Pastor Grenci’s... is your worst anti-Semitic letter, you are blessed indeed. The letter stated that God’s cleansing is ‘given in the Christ.’ That is basic Christian doctrine.... Would you consider the Christ to be anti-Semitic if He said, ‘I am the way .... No one comes to the Father but by me” (John 14:6)? I am not anti-Semitic. I feel that anti-Semitism is extremely detestable, second only to denying Jesus Christ as the only Savior” (Ibid.).
- Lewis Entze
....
John Strugnell’s great crime, it seems, is in being bold enough to say today what the apostle Paul said 2,000 years ago and what orthodox Christianity has always believed. I quote Mr. Strugnell: ‘The correct answer of Jews to Christianity is to become Christian.’... I realize that such statements are not popular, diplomatic or acceptable to your editorial philosophy, but if that is bigotry, anti-Semitic and contemptible, then all of us who still subscribes to classic Christianity are guilty also (Ibid.).
- Lawrence M. Downs
REFORMED
- Lewis Entze
....
John Strugnell’s great crime, it seems, is in being bold enough to say today what the apostle Paul said 2,000 years ago and what orthodox Christianity has always believed. I quote Mr. Strugnell: ‘The correct answer of Jews to Christianity is to become Christian.’... I realize that such statements are not popular, diplomatic or acceptable to your editorial philosophy, but if that is bigotry, anti-Semitic and contemptible, then all of us who still subscribes to classic Christianity are guilty also (Ibid.).
- Lawrence M. Downs
REFORMED
THE ANTI-JEWISH NEW TESTAMENT
I. INTRODUCTION
Jewish people, who have read the New Testament throughout the history of Christianity, became well aware of the numerous passages of vicious and defamatory anti-Jewish polemic within it. On the other hand, Christians, in general, have been insensitive to the offensive nature of these texts and to the damage that their usage has done to the Jewish people throughout the Common Era.
An increasing number of Christian scholars and clergy have concluded that the root of anti-Semitism in the Christian world community is ultimately found within the New Testament.
In his book, Elder and Younger Brothers: The Encounter of Jews and Christians, the late Professor A. Roy Eckhardt [former Professor of Religion at both Lehigh University (PA) and Oxford University (UK), and an ordained minister] asserts that
the foundation of anti-Semitism and the responsibility for the Holocaust lie ultimately in the New Testament.1
Rather than speculate about and explore the reasons as to why the New Testament contains the racist defamatory anti-Jewish rhetoric......
OBSERVATIONS AND CONCLUSIONS
Some general observations may be drawn from the material presented above:
An ever-increasing number of Christian scholars and clergy agree that the New
Testament contains defamatory anti-Jewish polemic
Regardless of how it found its way into the New Testament, can such defamatory
anti-Jewish language be the "breathed word of G-d", as many Christians believe
the New Testament is, or the "inspired word of G-d", as many other Christians
believe?
This defamatory anti-Jewish polemic within the New Testament, without a doubt,
served to fuel anti-Semitism and its resultant atrocities against the Jewish people
throughout the history of Christianity
Based on quantity alone, the Gospel of John appears to be the most anti-Jewish
book in the New Testament, with Acts of the Apostles being a close second
Although the "historic pericope" tradition may not have deliberately selected blatantly anti-Jewish texts, the tradition did not demonstrate sensitivity to this issue 8
While there may not have been a conscious attempt to select large numbers of defamatory anti-Jewish texts, it does not appear that there was any directed effort to avoid their usage either.
The New Testament has been very effective in poisoning the minds of those who study it and accept it as "the breathed word of G-d", or as being "inspired by G-d".
Question: What is the source of the common thread of anti-Semitism that connects the historical acts of persecution of the Jewish people?
Answer: The New Testament.
http://thejewishhome.org/counter/AntiJewishNT.pdf
so, you do what you want.
please men or please God.
if you want to please men, be ashamed of Jesus.
i wont be standing next to you.
Acts 5
27When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them, 28saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us." 29But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.
I. INTRODUCTION
Jewish people, who have read the New Testament throughout the history of Christianity, became well aware of the numerous passages of vicious and defamatory anti-Jewish polemic within it. On the other hand, Christians, in general, have been insensitive to the offensive nature of these texts and to the damage that their usage has done to the Jewish people throughout the Common Era.
An increasing number of Christian scholars and clergy have concluded that the root of anti-Semitism in the Christian world community is ultimately found within the New Testament.
In his book, Elder and Younger Brothers: The Encounter of Jews and Christians, the late Professor A. Roy Eckhardt [former Professor of Religion at both Lehigh University (PA) and Oxford University (UK), and an ordained minister] asserts that
the foundation of anti-Semitism and the responsibility for the Holocaust lie ultimately in the New Testament.1
Rather than speculate about and explore the reasons as to why the New Testament contains the racist defamatory anti-Jewish rhetoric......
OBSERVATIONS AND CONCLUSIONS
Some general observations may be drawn from the material presented above:
An ever-increasing number of Christian scholars and clergy agree that the New
Testament contains defamatory anti-Jewish polemic
Regardless of how it found its way into the New Testament, can such defamatory
anti-Jewish language be the "breathed word of G-d", as many Christians believe
the New Testament is, or the "inspired word of G-d", as many other Christians
believe?
This defamatory anti-Jewish polemic within the New Testament, without a doubt,
served to fuel anti-Semitism and its resultant atrocities against the Jewish people
throughout the history of Christianity
Based on quantity alone, the Gospel of John appears to be the most anti-Jewish
book in the New Testament, with Acts of the Apostles being a close second
Although the "historic pericope" tradition may not have deliberately selected blatantly anti-Jewish texts, the tradition did not demonstrate sensitivity to this issue 8
While there may not have been a conscious attempt to select large numbers of defamatory anti-Jewish texts, it does not appear that there was any directed effort to avoid their usage either.
The New Testament has been very effective in poisoning the minds of those who study it and accept it as "the breathed word of G-d", or as being "inspired by G-d".
Question: What is the source of the common thread of anti-Semitism that connects the historical acts of persecution of the Jewish people?
Answer: The New Testament.
http://thejewishhome.org/counter/AntiJewishNT.pdf
so, you do what you want.
please men or please God.
if you want to please men, be ashamed of Jesus.
i wont be standing next to you.
Acts 5
27When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them, 28saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us." 29But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.
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