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That would be the Word. Thanks, but I have yet to see the word being used by anyone in the Word. It is a lot simpler not to add things to the teaching directly from the Word. Even the Lord teaches us to learn of Him for His yoke is easy, His burden is light. All of these lofty terms really are beyond my intelligence. God bless you always...............
E
Ephesians 1:10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
I did not just pull the word out of my head.
I did not just pull the word out of my head.
P
Very good! You are arguing even more fervently against John Darby's future rebuilt temple!
Some faithful Jews may be saved by the Son without realizing it, because they may have been blinded to the Gospel. That in no way indicates they are saved under the old covenant, but by the Son of God.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/78643-what-dispensationalism-7.html#post1282933
Regarding the old covenant:
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
That was penned in the 1st century, so any rebuilt temple 2,000 years later, would be desolate from the get-go. Jesus even declared the "whole house" of the Pharisees desolate even before the cross because they let their tradition make the Word of God of none effect - like futurists.
Faithful Jews obviously don't need a rebuilt temple today, any more than they have over the last 2,000 years.
Some faithful Jews may be saved by the Son without realizing it, because they may have been blinded to the Gospel. That in no way indicates they are saved under the old covenant, but by the Son of God.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/78643-what-dispensationalism-7.html#post1282933
Regarding the old covenant:
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
That was penned in the 1st century, so any rebuilt temple 2,000 years later, would be desolate from the get-go. Jesus even declared the "whole house" of the Pharisees desolate even before the cross because they let their tradition make the Word of God of none effect - like futurists.
Faithful Jews obviously don't need a rebuilt temple today, any more than they have over the last 2,000 years.
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Good morning from here. No, you did not pull a word out of your head, but a word, used as a word only, has been pulled out of the Word of God to suit an argument of the flesh.
You could just as easily have pulled out the word, salvation, then call it a school of thought. Salvation, to the children of the Most High God is Yeshua, Jesus, or, quite frankly, Salvation.
Our Salvation should not be reworked into some kind of intellectual approach to our Father. We turn and become as children to approach Abba, Abbi.
There is no manner to approach our Father as some theological intellectual with terminologies even He does not employ.
The word, dispensation, is used as is its definition as a word, it is not a new school of thought for those too lofty to hear the simplicity of teaching of Yeshua, Jesus.
Turn and become as a child. Stop all this changing around of the intent of the Word. Dispensation: permission to break a law or an official promise you have made : release from a rule, vow, or oath: an act of providing something to people. This is the definition of "a word" selected from the many comprising the Word of Yahweh, it is by Merriam Webster's dictionary.
You could just as easily have pulled out the word, salvation, then call it a school of thought. Salvation, to the children of the Most High God is Yeshua, Jesus, or, quite frankly, Salvation.
Our Salvation should not be reworked into some kind of intellectual approach to our Father. We turn and become as children to approach Abba, Abbi.
There is no manner to approach our Father as some theological intellectual with terminologies even He does not employ.
The word, dispensation, is used as is its definition as a word, it is not a new school of thought for those too lofty to hear the simplicity of teaching of Yeshua, Jesus.
Turn and become as a child. Stop all this changing around of the intent of the Word. Dispensation: permission to break a law or an official promise you have made : release from a rule, vow, or oath: an act of providing something to people. This is the definition of "a word" selected from the many comprising the Word of Yahweh, it is by Merriam Webster's dictionary.
Ephesians 1:10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
So glad it doesn't say this: That in the undisclosed intellectually made-up suitable to an argument from the flesh time period of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
So glad it doesn't say this: That in the undisclosed intellectually made-up suitable to an argument from the flesh time period of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
Now that is drole. No it only says this to those who have made it a theology apart from what the definition of the word is, fairly plain and simple. My own desire is to remain with the children while maturing in the Message from Yahweh as it is written, not as it is rewritten. Yes, it is good it does not have it worded as you have put it.
G
I never knew that is what the word meant. As , when I speak about The Rapture, for instance, a dispensationl view of mine, according to the word, not The Word, mind you, but, yeah, I am NOT breaking any rules of interpretation of Scripture, quite the opposite.
When it says in 1 Thessalonians 4 that Christ will come from the sky with his angels and first the dead in Christ sleeping in the ground will rise up and go to Him and then those who are alive on Earth will, too, meet Christ in the sky.
Now, there is NO mention of this in Revelation yet it OBVIOUSLY happens, so, what's it gonna be, how's it gonna be. How's it gonna be? LOL, sounds like I'm singing some 1997 pop culture secular song . But, I'm not, I don't listen to sec music even of my own choosing, but, yeah, there is NO 'where' in Revelation that speaks of Christ coming from the clouds and for those in the grave coming up to meet Him along with those on the ground.
So, what is one to THINK. Are we to think that the 2nd coming of Jesus spoken of in Revelation is this event when Revelation NEVER describes this Rapture event?
Of course not, we are to go with what The Word says, otherwise, YOU are breaking the rules of interpretation, you are in a state of being dispensation thinking.
So, maybe, the ones who are NOT dispensationalist thinking of themselves really ARE the ones who are the real dispensationalists.
But, I agree, JJ, getting a word attached to a certain doctrine believed should be in the Scripture used in such a context that explains its meaning, and, sorry ,eg, bro, but, Ephesians 1:10 use of the word 'dispensation' does not show any meaning remotely close to JJ's posted Merriam Webster definition of 'dispensation.'
When it says in 1 Thessalonians 4 that Christ will come from the sky with his angels and first the dead in Christ sleeping in the ground will rise up and go to Him and then those who are alive on Earth will, too, meet Christ in the sky.
Now, there is NO mention of this in Revelation yet it OBVIOUSLY happens, so, what's it gonna be, how's it gonna be. How's it gonna be? LOL, sounds like I'm singing some 1997 pop culture secular song . But, I'm not, I don't listen to sec music even of my own choosing, but, yeah, there is NO 'where' in Revelation that speaks of Christ coming from the clouds and for those in the grave coming up to meet Him along with those on the ground.
So, what is one to THINK. Are we to think that the 2nd coming of Jesus spoken of in Revelation is this event when Revelation NEVER describes this Rapture event?
Of course not, we are to go with what The Word says, otherwise, YOU are breaking the rules of interpretation, you are in a state of being dispensation thinking.
So, maybe, the ones who are NOT dispensationalist thinking of themselves really ARE the ones who are the real dispensationalists.
But, I agree, JJ, getting a word attached to a certain doctrine believed should be in the Scripture used in such a context that explains its meaning, and, sorry ,eg, bro, but, Ephesians 1:10 use of the word 'dispensation' does not show any meaning remotely close to JJ's posted Merriam Webster definition of 'dispensation.'
P
As far as I know there are no hyper preterists in this forum, so everyone in this forum believes in the gathering of the elect. That doesn't mean we are all John Darby styled dispensationalists. The difference is when we believe it occurs. Through my historist approach, but more importantly through scripture, if the gathering of the elect was to be before the tribulation, then it would have had to have preceded John penning this verse:
Rev 1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I used the NKJV because the definite article "the" occurs before "tribulation" as well as before "kingdom" in the Koine Greek. Check your interlinear.
Rev 1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I used the NKJV because the definite article "the" occurs before "tribulation" as well as before "kingdom" in the Koine Greek. Check your interlinear.
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Words are verbalized concepts. As regarding the rapture, which is by no means a theology, simply a word describing an event, there is no reason why it should be mentioned in Revelation or the Gospels or anywhere else. What you post is totally reasonalbe in my humble esteem. As for the definition of dispensation, that was for reference. Perhpas the wrong word was translated. There are many unknowns in the translations and even in the original texts, but this is according to men who are well versed in languages. Our Only Authority is the Holy Spirit in reading and understanding, that coupled with faith in our Father. Thank you for the words, and Yahweh bless you always..........
Rev 1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The Greek word here is thlipsin θλῖψιν, which is also used in Rev. 2:10 for a temporary period of tribulation. But this is different from the Greek word used for the tribulation that will come on the whole earth in Rev. 3:10. there the word is peirasmou πειρασμοῦ. Of course the Gk word used in Matt. 24 is thlipsin, but my point is that we have to understand the word in context. Tribulation can mean temporary affliction, or it can refer to the Great Tribulation in which the world will all die if it isn't shortened and which the world has never seen and never will see again.
In Rev. 1:9 it very much appears that this refers to a temporary affliction, the suffering that we undergo in the kingdom of Jesus which gives us patience and is for His glory.
The Greek word here is thlipsin θλῖψιν, which is also used in Rev. 2:10 for a temporary period of tribulation. But this is different from the Greek word used for the tribulation that will come on the whole earth in Rev. 3:10. there the word is peirasmou πειρασμοῦ. Of course the Gk word used in Matt. 24 is thlipsin, but my point is that we have to understand the word in context. Tribulation can mean temporary affliction, or it can refer to the Great Tribulation in which the world will all die if it isn't shortened and which the world has never seen and never will see again.
In Rev. 1:9 it very much appears that this refers to a temporary affliction, the suffering that we undergo in the kingdom of Jesus which gives us patience and is for His glory.
E
So true.
We know matt tribulation is different.
1. He warns people to drop what they are doing and run
2. He tells us it will be so great, No period of tribulation will have been greater before this time. And no time of tribulation will be greater after (basically the worst period of tribulation mankind will ever endure)
3. This tribulation will be so severe. if God does not cut the time short. No flesh will survive. (this was not possible even in WW2)
We know matt tribulation is different.
1. He warns people to drop what they are doing and run
2. He tells us it will be so great, No period of tribulation will have been greater before this time. And no time of tribulation will be greater after (basically the worst period of tribulation mankind will ever endure)
3. This tribulation will be so severe. if God does not cut the time short. No flesh will survive. (this was not possible even in WW2)
P
You mean you believe that you have to understand it through John Nelson Darby's 19th century eschatological scheme, since no "pre-trib" "rapture" doctrine is to be found in the church, prior to Darby's invention.
PRE-TRIB RAPTURE LEFT BEHIND
Let's take a look at the Olivet Discourse:
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet [a great trumpet, NASB], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(1) great tribulation.
(2) after the tribulation.
(3) Son of man coming
(3) great trumpet
(5) gather together elect
The chronological order of the book of Matthew would have to be rearranged to put the gathering of the elect or what some call the "rapture" before the tribulation. The only excuse futurists even attempt is to suggest is that Matthew 24 was written solely to Jews. But here's how the Olivet Discourse closes in Mark:
Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
In the following Paul addresses the church at Corinth in a message to all Christians:
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Look back at Matthew 24 "shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet" and "they shall gather together his elect". That "trumpet" is the last trump, and if there is any they group in the above I sure wouldn't want to be in it. In the following Paul addresses the church in Thessalonica. Note the order again:
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Paul and the Thessalonians and you and I and the rest of the church are the WE. Didn't all those separate passages fit together nicely to describe the same event? Are we supposed to get a free pass from persecution, or expect to suffer it, as coming with the turf?
2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
GREAT TRIBULATION
2Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
That includes the last prophecy, of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, as declared to the prophet John. That's it. "the mystery of God should be finished".
What Darby's 19th century eschatological scheme causes you to do is minimize and cheapen tribulation being suffered by Christians all around the world, with 100,000 to 180,000 Christians martyred around the world every year, as has been suffered by Christians for nearly 2,000 years.
FUTURISM AND DISPENSATIONALISM
Here's what's been going on just in Nigerian towns, in a snapshot from Nigeria Calabash:
12/28/2012 Musari: Islamists tie up fifteen women and children inside a church, then slit their throats while shouting praises to Allah.
12/26/2012 Bachit: Suspected Fulani murder three villagers, including a married couple, in attacks on two Christian homes.
12/25/2012 Peri: A pastor and five worshippers are slaughtered in a Religion of Peace attack on a Christmas morning church service.
12/25/2012 Rim: A Christian is killed in his home by Fulani gunmen in front of his family.
12/24/2012 Maiduguri: Six people are killed in a Christmas Eve church attack by Religion of Peace gunmen.
12/6/2012 Yankaba: Two Christian teenagers are executed by gunmen on a motorcycle yelling, 'Allah akbar'.
12/2/2012 Chibok: Religion of Peace proponents invade a Christian village in the middle of the night and massacre ten residents.
12/1/2012 Gamboru Ngala: Two guards die when Muslims shouting 'Allah Akbar' burn churches.
11/25/2012 Jaji: Two suicide bombers massacre fifteen worshippers at a Protestant church.
11/22/2012 Bichi: Angry Muslims riot, burn churches and kills four Christians over a rumor of blasphemy concerning a t-shirt."
etc. etc. ad nauseam
MUSLIM PERSECUTION OF CHRISTIANS
PRE-TRIB RAPTURE LEFT BEHIND
Let's take a look at the Olivet Discourse:
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet [a great trumpet, NASB], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(1) great tribulation.
(2) after the tribulation.
(3) Son of man coming
(3) great trumpet
(5) gather together elect
The chronological order of the book of Matthew would have to be rearranged to put the gathering of the elect or what some call the "rapture" before the tribulation. The only excuse futurists even attempt is to suggest is that Matthew 24 was written solely to Jews. But here's how the Olivet Discourse closes in Mark:
Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
In the following Paul addresses the church at Corinth in a message to all Christians:
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Look back at Matthew 24 "shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet" and "they shall gather together his elect". That "trumpet" is the last trump, and if there is any they group in the above I sure wouldn't want to be in it. In the following Paul addresses the church in Thessalonica. Note the order again:
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Paul and the Thessalonians and you and I and the rest of the church are the WE. Didn't all those separate passages fit together nicely to describe the same event? Are we supposed to get a free pass from persecution, or expect to suffer it, as coming with the turf?
2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
GREAT TRIBULATION
2Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
That includes the last prophecy, of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, as declared to the prophet John. That's it. "the mystery of God should be finished".
What Darby's 19th century eschatological scheme causes you to do is minimize and cheapen tribulation being suffered by Christians all around the world, with 100,000 to 180,000 Christians martyred around the world every year, as has been suffered by Christians for nearly 2,000 years.
FUTURISM AND DISPENSATIONALISM
Here's what's been going on just in Nigerian towns, in a snapshot from Nigeria Calabash:
12/28/2012 Musari: Islamists tie up fifteen women and children inside a church, then slit their throats while shouting praises to Allah.
12/26/2012 Bachit: Suspected Fulani murder three villagers, including a married couple, in attacks on two Christian homes.
12/25/2012 Peri: A pastor and five worshippers are slaughtered in a Religion of Peace attack on a Christmas morning church service.
12/25/2012 Rim: A Christian is killed in his home by Fulani gunmen in front of his family.
12/24/2012 Maiduguri: Six people are killed in a Christmas Eve church attack by Religion of Peace gunmen.
12/6/2012 Yankaba: Two Christian teenagers are executed by gunmen on a motorcycle yelling, 'Allah akbar'.
12/2/2012 Chibok: Religion of Peace proponents invade a Christian village in the middle of the night and massacre ten residents.
12/1/2012 Gamboru Ngala: Two guards die when Muslims shouting 'Allah Akbar' burn churches.
11/25/2012 Jaji: Two suicide bombers massacre fifteen worshippers at a Protestant church.
11/22/2012 Bichi: Angry Muslims riot, burn churches and kills four Christians over a rumor of blasphemy concerning a t-shirt."
etc. etc. ad nauseam
MUSLIM PERSECUTION OF CHRISTIANS
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Matthew 24
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple Herod's Temple
1Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple.
2But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
Signs of the Close of the TEMPLE JEWISH NATION Age
3As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?”
4And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then many will fall awaya and betray one another and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation
15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, < LOOK IT UP standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple Herod's Temple
1Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple.
2But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
Signs of the Close of the TEMPLE JEWISH NATION Age
3As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?”
4And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then many will fall awaya and betray one another and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation
15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, < LOOK IT UP standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Zone,
Did Titus ever claim to be Christ?
Has Christ returned and we missed it?
Has the Mount of Olives been split in two with a valley between the two halves?
Has there been a period in recorded history after AD 33 where a bunch of dead people came back to life?
Are lions laying down with lambs?
Are people living to be really old again?
9 That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which it may be said, "See, this is new"? It has already been in ancient times before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things, Nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come By those who will come after.
History repeats.
Did Titus ever claim to be Christ?
Has Christ returned and we missed it?
Has the Mount of Olives been split in two with a valley between the two halves?
Has there been a period in recorded history after AD 33 where a bunch of dead people came back to life?
Are lions laying down with lambs?
Are people living to be really old again?
9 That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which it may be said, "See, this is new"? It has already been in ancient times before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things, Nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come By those who will come after.
History repeats.
just take this one bit here.
where did you find it?
(and later maybe you can explain what you mean by this: "Did Titus ever claim to be Christ?")
where did you find it?
(and later maybe you can explain what you mean by this: "Did Titus ever claim to be Christ?")
Based on some of your posts you seem to be saying that all (or most) of the Olivet Discourse passages dealt with the overthrow of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple circa AD 70? If I misread you, I apologize.
right
well, we've got to decide if the Old Testament reveals a clear picture of the eternal state - New Jerusalem; death is abolished; no more crying; the former things are forgotten, etc - the way the New Testament does.
the passages in question (Isaiah 65:20-22) are difficult, no question. there's a lot of reading to do
and this is one place where the idea of a future, semi-restored; partially redeemed earth and mankind dwelling in a golden age comes from - the "Millennium".
in Isaiah God is either :
describing (through Isaiah), a time future to us, when this earth and everything in it suddenly (or slowly) literally reverses or reverts back to days the Israelites understood as glory-days (the Patriarchs)...where they had blessings of long life and rest and prosperity....though we see sinners and curses and death there also...
or:
He is describing, (through the same imagery and figures the promises the Hebrews longed for) what is actually more fully revealed in the New Testament as the New Heavens and Earth; New Jerusalem....or as we see the Apostles say - "heaven", or eternity.
a little further along God clearly says - "the new heavens and the new earth Which I make"
Isaiah 66
21"I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD. 22"For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure. 23"And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.
...while still using the promises and language they knew "new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath"?
because the New Testament says the New heavens and earth; New Jerusalem have no need of moon or sun...no temple...right?
...
so - is Isaiah describing an intermediate Millennial State in 65:20-22....then in the middle of it - offering just a glimpse of the eternal state to come after that (66:22 - For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD)?
or is the phrase "the new heavens and the new earth" the figurative part in Isaiah ?
.....
OR (and this is my view) : is he describing ALL OF; The Lord's weariness with their idolatry; the reasons for punishment; the promises and threatenings...(recall a little further back):
Isaiah 65:2
I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts
Isaiah 65:3
A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
...their return from captivity; the restoration of Israel (the apostles; the church, etc)...remember James confirmed that Amos 9 was being fulfilled right then, as they were in Jerusalem, restored...and the gentiles were coming into enlarged or expanded saved Israel...
...through to the eternal state?
because look back again to:
Isaiah 65:9
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
this is clearly Jesus
He came once already, as Promised.
SO: what was Isaiah focused on in 65:20-22?
wasn't it primarily figurative language illustrating coming blessings and threatenings; promises with conditions?
he was either literally describing a Millennial Age future to us when things revert back to the Mosaic system OR he was using figurative language in a sweeping illustration of the Messianic Age - the time of salvation between the Two Advents.
which is what Amillennialists believe - the thousand years of the single tiny chapter in Revelation 20 is the very same time frame Isaiah described, using different pictures (a figurative number representing the Messianic Age where we; and Israel are determined lost or saved, cursed or blessed - according to The Gospel of eternal life through Jesus Christ as revealed to Israel "in these last days":
Hebrews 1:2
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high
2 Timothy 1
8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9who saved us and called us toa a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,b 10and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, 12which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.
1 Peter 1:4
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
it seems clear to me that we can not stop or stay in the Old Testament for understanding, but need to proceed all the way through the New.
i see nothing at all the New Testamant that says there is a future Millennium - quite the opposite
the pictures and promises, the understanding the ancient Israelites had was based on what the prophets were given.
it's my position that if they had (and the faithful remnant we know DID) been ready and faithful, they would have known the time of their visitation and recognized what the promises really were....not a carnal kingdom out of old Jerusalem, but the promise of a Resurrection unto eternal life in the NEW.
the new beginning here, now...with the new birth (the first resurrection, which is Christ's, in which we take part)...which is what i believe Isaiah 65:20-22 is referring to...this is that intermediate state. now. today. each one's life before death, after which comes the judgement.
today is the day of salvation.
i do believe most of it was about 1st century Jerusalem.
~
forgive typos etc...it's 3:00am and my coffee is too strong.
z
well, we've got to decide if the Old Testament reveals a clear picture of the eternal state - New Jerusalem; death is abolished; no more crying; the former things are forgotten, etc - the way the New Testament does.
the passages in question (Isaiah 65:20-22) are difficult, no question. there's a lot of reading to do
and this is one place where the idea of a future, semi-restored; partially redeemed earth and mankind dwelling in a golden age comes from - the "Millennium".
in Isaiah God is either :
describing (through Isaiah), a time future to us, when this earth and everything in it suddenly (or slowly) literally reverses or reverts back to days the Israelites understood as glory-days (the Patriarchs)...where they had blessings of long life and rest and prosperity....though we see sinners and curses and death there also...
or:
He is describing, (through the same imagery and figures the promises the Hebrews longed for) what is actually more fully revealed in the New Testament as the New Heavens and Earth; New Jerusalem....or as we see the Apostles say - "heaven", or eternity.
a little further along God clearly says - "the new heavens and the new earth Which I make"
Isaiah 66
21"I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD. 22"For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure. 23"And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.
...while still using the promises and language they knew "new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath"?
because the New Testament says the New heavens and earth; New Jerusalem have no need of moon or sun...no temple...right?
...
so - is Isaiah describing an intermediate Millennial State in 65:20-22....then in the middle of it - offering just a glimpse of the eternal state to come after that (66:22 - For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD)?
or is the phrase "the new heavens and the new earth" the figurative part in Isaiah ?
.....
OR (and this is my view) : is he describing ALL OF; The Lord's weariness with their idolatry; the reasons for punishment; the promises and threatenings...(recall a little further back):
Isaiah 65:2
I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts
Isaiah 65:3
A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
...their return from captivity; the restoration of Israel (the apostles; the church, etc)...remember James confirmed that Amos 9 was being fulfilled right then, as they were in Jerusalem, restored...and the gentiles were coming into enlarged or expanded saved Israel...
...through to the eternal state?
because look back again to:
Isaiah 65:9
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
this is clearly Jesus
He came once already, as Promised.
SO: what was Isaiah focused on in 65:20-22?
wasn't it primarily figurative language illustrating coming blessings and threatenings; promises with conditions?
he was either literally describing a Millennial Age future to us when things revert back to the Mosaic system OR he was using figurative language in a sweeping illustration of the Messianic Age - the time of salvation between the Two Advents.
which is what Amillennialists believe - the thousand years of the single tiny chapter in Revelation 20 is the very same time frame Isaiah described, using different pictures (a figurative number representing the Messianic Age where we; and Israel are determined lost or saved, cursed or blessed - according to The Gospel of eternal life through Jesus Christ as revealed to Israel "in these last days":
Hebrews 1:2
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high
2 Timothy 1
8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9who saved us and called us toa a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,b 10and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, 12which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.
1 Peter 1:4
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
it seems clear to me that we can not stop or stay in the Old Testament for understanding, but need to proceed all the way through the New.
i see nothing at all the New Testamant that says there is a future Millennium - quite the opposite
the pictures and promises, the understanding the ancient Israelites had was based on what the prophets were given.
it's my position that if they had (and the faithful remnant we know DID) been ready and faithful, they would have known the time of their visitation and recognized what the promises really were....not a carnal kingdom out of old Jerusalem, but the promise of a Resurrection unto eternal life in the NEW.
the new beginning here, now...with the new birth (the first resurrection, which is Christ's, in which we take part)...which is what i believe Isaiah 65:20-22 is referring to...this is that intermediate state. now. today. each one's life before death, after which comes the judgement.
today is the day of salvation.
i do believe most of it was about 1st century Jerusalem.
~
forgive typos etc...it's 3:00am and my coffee is too strong.
z
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E
Matthew 24
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple Herod's Temple
1Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple.
2But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
Signs of the Close of the TEMPLE JEWISH NATION Age
3As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?”
4And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then many will fall awaya and betray one another and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation
15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, < LOOK IT UP standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple Herod's Temple
1Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple.
2But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
Signs of the Close of the TEMPLE JEWISH NATION Age
3As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?”
4And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then many will fall awaya and betray one another and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation
15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, < LOOK IT UP standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
1. He warns people to drop what they are doing and run (may have happened in AD 70, but questionable.)
2. He tells us it will be so great, No period of tribulation will have been greater before this time. And no time of tribulation will be greater after (basically the worst period of tribulation mankind will ever endure) Definately DID NOT HAPPEN IN ad 70. And no amount of cut and past or explaination could convince me otherwise. Again, WW1 and WW2 were two periods of tribulation which were far greater than AD 70 could even think of being!
3. This tribulation will be so severe. if God does not cut the time short. No flesh will survive. (this was not possible even in WW2) Impossible in AD 70. All flesh was not even threatened to die in the field of battle in AD 70, let alone, Jesus spoke of the world. Not just jerusalem.