What is Dispensationalism?

[zone]

Not trying to be mean sis, but you did not respond properly to my quote.

sorry bud.

1. He warns people to drop what they are doing and run (may have happened in AD 70, but questionable.)

He warns which people to drop what they are doing and run?

Mark 13:1

As He was going out of the temple

one of His disciples said to Him,

"Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!"

And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings?

Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down."

Mark 13:14

"But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION

standing where it should not be (let the reader understand),

then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

"The one who is on the housetop must not go down, or go in to get anything out of his house....


so my question would be....are jews in Judea reading this right now?
will they heed the warning?
but what AOD?
there's no temple standing

so that means that - when Jesus said:

And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings?

Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down."

He meant a temple that hasn't been built yet - not the one Mark identifies: "As He was going out of the temple"?

2. He tells us it will be so great, No period of tribulation will have been greater before this time. And no time of tribulation will be greater after (basically the worst period of tribulation mankind will ever endure)

no, He told them that....Israel/Christian/disciples in Judea at that time.

and it was the worst tribulation (God's punishment) Israel experienced (the transition to the New Covenant will not be reversed - people either received Him and entered or they didn't)....the apostates died there, horribly.

and the city was completely demolished. just like Daniel predicted (and just as Rev says - Jerusalem was the great harlot, which is why she was burned with fire - among other covenant curses)...which is why Jesus told them to refer to Daniel

it doesn't say mankind EG....He was speaking to the people in His day.

B]Definately DID NOT HAPPEN IN ad 70. And no amount of cut and past or explaination could convince me otherwise.

okay

 

[PlainWord]

Hi Zone,

Thanks for the detailed explanation of your views. You make a good case but I do see a future 1,000 year millennial reign on earth with Christ coming and coming soon. I base this on much more than a single verse in Rev 20. I also do not discount the OT as being irrelevant to future events. While most OT prophesy has been fulfilled, many OT prophesies are yet future IMO. The Lord's birth, life, death, resurrection and future reign are all prophesied in multiple OT passages. The only event which isn't is this ridiculous rapture theory that we both agree is a farce. I take it one step further, the rapture theory is the working of Satan which he will use to deceive many.

The "Day of the Lord" is discussed in multiple places in the OT. The events associated with this "DAY" I do not see as having been fulfilled. Take Psalm 110 for instance. I don't see this as a past event, do you? If we apply 2 Peter 3:8 principle that a day is as a 1,000 years, then we have a witness to Rev 20. The events associated with the Day of the Lord are far too many to take place in one literal earth day, heck they bury the dead from Armageddon for 7 months.

Consider also Gen 2:17. God tells Adam that if he eats from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that he would surely die in that day. Did Adam die that day??? No, Adam lived what 930 years? Had Adam not eaten of the "tree" (a topic of its own as I don't believe this had anything to do with a piece of fruit), it is safe to say that mankind would live forever because there was no death before the original sin - correct?? Don't you find it interesting that no man lived to be 1,000 years old but in those days of old, they came close.

Death was a result of sin and sin was a result of Temptation of Satan. Satan altered God's word and thus painted a prettier picture to man than the one God painted. Satan was later allowed to tempt Christ. It was basically the first major thing that happened in Christ's ministry. Again, Satan twisted God's word by omission. I believe this will happen again in the very near future with Satan coming as "antichrist." He again twists God's word and invented a Rapture theory which is more appealing to man than God's word.

I believe that OT and NT events help us understand future events as God and Satan have not changed. Their ways are the same and we can learn a lot from seeing how things in the past will unfold again. I believe we are given historical "types" of things to come. I believe it is God's desire to test man during the Tribulation and that He will allow Satan to try and deceive as many as he can.

The Word was written in such a way as to allow Satan wiggle room to insert a Rapture Theory. Paul was primarily responsible for this wiggle room. Let's face it, if 1 Cor 15:51-52 and 1 Thes 4:13-17 weren't written, there would be no rapture theory because clearly it isn't taught by Christ or anyone else. Satan combined these two passages, one which dealt with the Second Coming and one which dealt with End of the millennial to invent a Rapture.

We are discussing Isaiah 65. Isaiah 65:11-15 describes two very different groups, right?? You know what I think concerning these two groups as I believe John describes them both in Rev 7. Let's take verse 15:

15 You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen; For the Lord God will slay you, And call His servants by another name.

I see this verse directly tied to Rev 2:16-17:

16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it." '

Lastly, the events of today are sure lining up for the events described in Ezek 38-39 and the Olivet Discourse and Revelation. I don't see any where in history where the Lord has returned and ruled with a rod of iron as described in many OT and NT places, this also from Rev 2:

25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations-- 27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron;

Forgive any typos. It is 5:30 AM here in Vegas and I've been at this awhile. Woke up at 4 with major tooth pain - need a root canal.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

no, He told them that....Israel/Christian/disciples in Judea at that time.

and it was the worst tribulation (God's punishment) Israel experienced (the transition to the New Covenant will not be reversed - people either received Him and entered or they didn't)....the apostates died there, horribly.

and the city was completely demolished. just like Daniel predicted (and just as Rev says - Jerusalem was the great harlot, which is why she was burned with fire - among other covenant curses)...which is why Jesus told them to refer to Daniel

it doesn't say mankind EG....He was speaking to the people in His day.

Your taking this completely out of context Zone. Not only in matthew, but the OT prophesies which are also speaking of this time.

Jesus had just said wars and rumors of wars. Nation rising against nation, kingdom against kingdom. All these things will happen, but the end is not near yet.

All of these things are worldwide in scope. Not just jerusalem. All the OT prophesies speak of a worldwide tribulation and events. Even revelation (which speak of this time in greater detail) speak of worldwide events.

THEN comes the events he spoke of..Again Worldwide, Not just in jerusalem


You still have not explained how all flesh would have possibly been killed in AD 70. which would cause the return of Christ to put an end to it.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

 

[zone]

Hi Zone,

Thanks for the detailed explanation of your views. You make a good case but I do see a future 1,000 year millennial reign on earth with Christ coming and coming soon. I base this on much more than a single verse in Rev 20. I also do not discount the OT as being irrelevant to future events.

um....amillennialism doesn't discount any OT as irrelevant.
not to future events either - where they still remain unfulfilled.

this isn't that hard, really.
maybe a list soon....of all the prophecies and types we think are fulfilled (?)
just a simple list. that might be helpful.

While most OT prophesy has been fulfilled, many OT prophesies are yet future IMO. The Lord's birth, life, death, resurrection and future reign are all prophesied in multiple OT passages. The only event which isn't is this ridiculous rapture theory that we both agree is a farce. I take it one step further, the rapture theory is the working of Satan which he will use to deceive many.

future to whom?
the OT writers

The "Day of the Lord" is discussed in multiple places in the OT. The events associated with this "DAY" I do not see as having been fulfilled. Take Psalm 110 for instance. I don't see this as a past event, do you?

well, it (Psalm 110 for ex) began (was fulfilled) 2000 years ago...and is being fulfilled now - until the Last Day.
the One and Only Judgment Day.


Psalm 110
1A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." 2The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of Your enemies."

what in that isn't confirmed as fulfilled?

Mark 12:36
35And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? 36"David himself said in the Holy Spirit, 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET."' 37"David himself calls Him 'Lord'; so in what sense is He his son?" And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him.

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven

Mark 16:19
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

you get the idea.

...

the 'ruling with a rod of iron' is dreadfully misunderstood, imo.

 

[PlainWord]

I don't think God has even started making the Lord's enemies His footstool. Things are getting far worse (more sinful) than they were just 20 years ago. The moral decline has been rapid in our lifetime. I don't see the Lord ruling in the midst of his enemies at all yet. I don't see any of Zech 13-14 as past events or Ezek 38-48 as having occurred.

If you want to start the list, I'll chime in. But know that I do believe history repeats itself and many prophesies are dual.

 

[zone]

The "Day of the Lord" is discussed in multiple places in the OT.

New American Standard Bible
Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.

King James Bible
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence.

International Standard Version
"Look! A day is coming for the LORD, when your plunder will be divided among you.

Young's Literal Translation
Lo, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst.

....

multi-lingual

Zechariah 14:1 Multilingual: Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. - click

 

[zone]

I don't think God has even started making the Lord's enemies His footstool. Things are getting far worse (more sinful) than they were just 20 years ago. The moral decline has been rapid in our lifetime. I don't see the Lord ruling in the midst of his enemies at all yet. I don't see any of Zech 13-14 as past events or Ezek 38-48 as having occurred.

If you want to start the list, I'll chime in. But know that I do believe history repeats itself and many prophesies are dual.

Psalm 2
The Reign of the LORD’s Anointed
1 Why do the nations ragea
and the peoples plot in vain?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”

7 I will tell of the decree:
The LORD said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall breakb them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.


....


Acts 4
The Believers Pray for Boldness
23When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,c said by the Holy Spirit,

“‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed’—

27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. 29And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servantse to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.

 

[PlainWord]

Your taking this completely out of context Zone. Not only in matthew, but the OT prophesies which are also speaking of this time.

Jesus had just said wars and rumors of wars. Nation rising against nation, kingdom against kingdom. All these things will happen, but the end is not near yet.

All of these things are worldwide in scope. Not just jerusalem. All the OT prophesies speak of a worldwide tribulation and events. Even revelation (which speak of this time in greater detail) speak of worldwide events.

THEN comes the events he spoke of..Again Worldwide, Not just in jerusalem


You still have not explained how all flesh would have possibly been killed in AD 70. which would cause the return of Christ to put an end to it.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

EG makes a very good point. We don't agree on the Rapture but we do on most other things. There has been no time in recorded history since the flood where we've had anything close to 1/3 of mankind being killed as we will at the 6th trumpet alone. In fact, there isn't a single event even approaching 10% of the world population being wiped out.

There will be a WWIII. Damascus is supposed to be completely destroyed, that has never happened in recorded history. Israel's borders have never extended to the borders promised in the covenant either - yet. Israel will become the dominate nation in the world after the Lord returns. That hasn't been the case since David.

 

[zone]

I don't think God has even started making the Lord's enemies His footstool.

are you going to address what this says
i can get more....not going to carry on if youre going to skip over the passages confirming what you are (kinda but not really) denying

Psalm 110
1A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." 2The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of Your enemies."

what in that isn't confirmed as fulfilled?

Mark 12:36
35And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? 36"David himself said in the Holy Spirit, 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET."' 37"David himself calls Him 'Lord'; so in what sense is He his son?" And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him.

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven

Mark 16:19
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

 

[zone]

EG makes a very good point. We don't agree on the Rapture but we do on most other things. There has been no time in recorded history since the flood where we've had anything close to 1/3 of mankind being killed as we will at the 6th trumpet alone. In fact, there isn't a single event even approaching 10% of the world population being wiped out.

There will be a WWIII. Damascus is supposed to be completely destroyed, that has never happened in recorded history. Israel's borders have never extended to the borders promised in the covenant either - yet. Israel will become the dominate nation in the world after the Lord returns. That hasn't been the case since David.

Isaiah - click

sheesh

you guys....come on.

 

[zone]

Your taking this completely out of context Zone. Not only in matthew, but the OT prophesies which are also speaking of this time.

Jesus had just said wars and rumors of wars. Nation rising against nation, kingdom against kingdom. All these things will happen, but the end is not near yet.

All of these things are worldwide in scope. Not just jerusalem. All the OT prophesies speak of a worldwide tribulation and events. Even revelation (which speak of this time in greater detail) speak of worldwide events.

THEN comes the events he spoke of..Again Worldwide, Not just in jerusalem


You still have not explained how all flesh would have possibly been killed in AD 70. which would cause the return of Christ to put an end to it.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

could you get the passages (red)

...

the days were shortened.
flesh was saved....they fled the city.
the elect did.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

are you going to address what this says
i can get more....not going to carry on if youre going to skip over the passages confirming what you are (kinda but not really) denying

Originally Posted by zone

Psalm 110
1A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." 2The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of Your enemies."

what in that isn't confirmed as fulfilled?

You bolded the wrong part He is sitting UNTIL. which means it is not yet fulfilled.

It will be fulfilled. when he

1. Returns
2. Destroys the enemie
3. Cast satan into the bottomless pit. where he can not deceive anyone
4. Sets up his kingdom. and rules with a rod of Iron.

 

[zone]

Psalm 2
The Reign of the LORD’s Anointed
1 Why do the nations ragea
and the peoples plot in vain?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”

7 I will tell of the decree:
The LORD said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall breakb them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.


....


Acts 4
The Believers Pray for Boldness
23When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,c said by the Holy Spirit,

“‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed’—

27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. 29And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servantse to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.

PlainWord - please address
thanks...i`ll come back later.

no skipping over these passages otherwise its just our opinions (the world looks like Satan is winning etc) and a waste of time.

 

[PlainWord]

the 'ruling with a rod of iron' is dreadfully misunderstood, imo.

That's because it hasn't happened yet.

Keep a close eye on Pope Francis. He is looking like a potential false prophet.

Pope Blasts 'Idolatry of Money' in First Document Outlining Papacy

You've got the White Horse attacking the Black Horse telling it to become more like the Red Horse while reaching out to be more inclusive with the Pale (Green) Horse.

 

[zone]

Originally Posted by zone

Psalm 110
1A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." 2The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of Your enemies."

what in that isn't confirmed as fulfilled?

You bolded the wrong part He is sitting UNTIL. which means it is not yet fulfilled.

It will be fulfilled. when he

1. Returns
2. Destroys the enemie
3. Cast satan into the bottomless pit. where he can not deceive anyone
4. Sets up his kingdom. and rules with a rod of Iron.

so Jesus is not reigning now
been here dun dis

 

[zone]

That's because it hasn't happened yet.

Keep a close eye on Pope Francis. He is looking like a potential false prophet.

Pope Blasts 'Idolatry of Money' in First Document Outlining Papacy

You've got the White Horse attacking the Black Horse telling it to become more like the Red Horse while reaching out to be more inclusive with the Pale (Green) Horse.

okay....i am not playing.


post your scriptures or fergit it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so Jesus is not reigning now
been here dun dis

lol.. It says he will rule with an iron rod.

1. Is evil being punished? Nope
2. Is Evil still rampant? Yep
3. Are all the nations worshiping him? NOPE
4. Is the earth back to where it was prophesied? Nope

Is Jesus ruling? If he is, he is not a very good king is he??

yep, been dere done this. And Jesus still is not ruling.

 

[PlainWord]

PlainWord - please address
thanks...i`ll come back later.

no skipping over these passages otherwise its just our opinions (the world looks like Satan is winning etc) and a waste of time.

I've got to run too. will be back later to address... Have a good day!!

 

[zone]

Is Jesus ruling? If he is, he is not a very good king is he??

*shiver*

Psalm 2:6
5Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying, 6"But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain." 7"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You

Zion My holy mountain is Heavenly Jerusalem EG.

Psalm 3:4
I call out to the LORD, and he answers me from his holy mountain.

Psalm 24:3
Who may ascend the mountain of the LORD? Who may stand in his holy place?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

*shiver*

Psalm 2:6
5Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying, 6"But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain." 7"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You

Zion My holy mountain is Heavenly Jerusalem EG.

Psalm 3:4
I call out to the LORD, and he answers me from his holy mountain.

Psalm 24:3
Who may ascend the mountain of the LORD? Who may stand in his holy place?

well heavenly jerusalem is not here yet. We are told he will rule before heavenly.

we are told.

parents will still have children.
People will worship god from all nations
Everyone will know who Christ is. and come to worship him every year
many more things, all of which will happen BEFORE the final battle (satan being released) and this world being destroyed.

Plus, you said he is ruling now. so which is it? is he ruling now. and all the things prophesied are true (which they are not) or is he just going to rule heavenly jerusalem?

ps. he will not need an iron rod in heavenly jerusalem. there will be no sin to judge..