I want the truth , no beating around the bush

[BananaPie]

If you are truly interested... ...we can start over... ...from the sole vantage point of the Bible?

Say there, Johnny Lee, how did that song go again?

...lookin' for love in all the wrong places
Lookin' for love in too many faces
Searchin' their eyes, looking for traces
Of what I'm dreaming of...

BTW, dearest OldHermit, you can bring water to a horse, but if that horse ain't thirsty, you cannot make it drink.

May our sweet Lord God above bless your sincere efforts in loving the Lord the way you do! I'm standing by you in prayer should the Lord bring the lad to learn the beautiful thoughts of God.

 

[oldhermit]

Say there, Johnny Lee, how did that song go again?

...lookin' for love in all the wrong places
Lookin' for love in too many faces
Searchin' their eyes, looking for traces
Of what I'm dreaming of...

BTW, dearest OldHermit, you can bring water to a horse, but if that horse ain't thirsty, you cannot make it drink.

May our sweet Lord God above bless your sincere efforts in loving the Lord the way you do! I'm standing by you in prayer should the Lord bring the lad to learn the beautiful thoughts of God.

Thank you.

 

[morninglory]

Prophet Muhammad(saw) had 40 years before being declared a prophet to show his character and he was labelled the truthful/honest.Plus he was illiterate
The Quran has many scientific and historical and linguistic miracles
Ill give a few .Linguistics wise the quran is amazing in Surah Baqara God says if you think this is from a man then produce a chapter like it. The shortest chapter in it is 10 words which has approximately 40 literary techniques in arabic i've only counted 24 in english, but nevertheless still amazing.
Historically the King at the time was called a Pharoh in the Quran during the time of Moses but during the time of prophet yusuf(joesph) the king is known as king which is confirmed by a recent historical discovery
Scientifically the quran talks about the big bang which is pretty awesome and that water is the origin of life “Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?” (Quran 21:30) Also it tells that the universe is expanding which is a recent discovery " “And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are (its) expander.” (Quran 51:47)"Then Jesus(saw)submitted his will to god which is the very definition of a muslim and prayed ,fasted,was circumised and so on.I mean who else could know this ? An illiterate man in the dessert couldn't know this , only the creater could. This is the only the tip of the iceberg .God who we call Allah which translates to "the god" like Elohim in the bible has sent over 100,000 messengers to the whole earth and the Aboriginal tribes had a concept of an Eternal supreme being which matches the description of the quran in the bible . look here The Concept of God among the Aborigines of Australia press ctrl f and search for the words god. We belive Jesus Christ and we believe he is one of the best men to ever walk on this Earth and u cant be muslim unless u believe in Jesus christ.However Jesus christ never claimed divinity but rather he said " the father is greater than i " meaning Jesus could not be the father and hence Jesus doesn't equal the father.But the church teaches a concept of trinity a term which is non-existent in the bible.
There's so much but yeah the quran even reasons with us telling use ur logic in conjunction with scientifc facts only being discovered recently.It truely is a miracle and based on the prophet's character he was a honest person and even the person who poisoned him he forgave her but we dont worship the prophet.He's just a slave. Just like jesus was. God is testing us and yeahh... its a deep story

LFT, Now I understand where you are coming from... I am the first to admitt that I know nothing about the Quarn, but I did read the history of Mohammad, and so I would like to ask you a few questions;

What promises, if any, did Mohammad make?

What predictions for the end times are made in the Quarn?

When were the first and last writings in the Quarn?

Was it all in the same language(I'm sure it was)?

Did it have more than one person to write it(it more than likely did if it is old)?

Do you know their names and their history?

That is all I can think of for the moment, but am intersted in your answers.

 

[morninglory]

Then why did Noah,David , Moses,Abraham , Ishmael peace be upon them all come down ? what happened to the people of those times ? its so inconsistent and honestly i havent even used my holy scripture i could debate u all day using ur own scripture and that is just sad. that shows multiple authors .. :/ but you choose to ignore it because other religions seems foreign but its actually your duty to seek the truth .The devil can deceive u right ? What u believe is faith might be blind faith however truth can never be altered.When a human hears truth there is no denying it .

LFT, I will get back to this after I learn more about the Quarn and Mohammad that I have asked in another post.

 

[chubbena]

Prophet Muhammad(saw) had 40 years before being declared a prophet to show his character and he was labelled the truthful/honest.Plus he was illiterate
The Quran has many scientific and historical and linguistic miracles
Ill give a few .Linguistics wise the quran is amazing in Surah Baqara God says if you think this is from a man then produce a chapter like it. The shortest chapter in it is 10 words which has approximately 40 literary techniques in arabic i've only counted 24 in english, but nevertheless still amazing.
Historically the King at the time was called a Pharoh in the Quran during the time of Moses but during the time of prophet yusuf(joesph) the king is known as king which is confirmed by a recent historical discovery
Scientifically the quran talks about the big bang which is pretty awesome and that water is the origin of life “Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?” (Quran 21:30) Also it tells that the universe is expanding which is a recent discovery " “And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are (its) expander.” (Quran 51:47)"Then Jesus(saw)submitted his will to god which is the very definition of a muslim and prayed ,fasted,was circumised and so on.I mean who else could know this ? An illiterate man in the dessert couldn't know this , only the creater could. This is the only the tip of the iceberg .God who we call Allah which translates to "the god" like Elohim in the bible has sent over 100,000 messengers to the whole earth and the Aboriginal tribes had a concept of an Eternal supreme being which matches the description of the quran in the bible . look here The Concept of God among the Aborigines of Australia press ctrl f and search for the words god. We belive Jesus Christ and we believe he is one of the best men to ever walk on this Earth and u cant be muslim unless u believe in Jesus christ.However Jesus christ never claimed divinity but rather he said " the father is greater than i " meaning Jesus could not be the father and hence Jesus doesn't equal the father.But the church teaches a concept of trinity a term which is non-existent in the bible.
There's so much but yeah the quran even reasons with us telling use ur logic in conjunction with scientifc facts only being discovered recently.It truely is a miracle and based on the prophet's character he was a honest person and even the person who poisoned him he forgave her but we dont worship the prophet.He's just a slave. Just like jesus was. God is testing us and yeahh... its a deep story

Oldhermit has prophesied right here:

First of all, I am in no way convinced that you have come for truth at all. I think you are an arrogant young man who is simply looking for a fight. You are trying to argue points you clearly do not understand and you are treating scripture as if it were the product of human reason. Scripture is not about logic. It is about revealed knowledge. God did not call us to logic but to faith. These are two opposite polls. If you understood scripture at all you would see that it defies logic on almost ever page. If you are serious about studying the nature of God I would be happy to help you and try to answer any honest questions you may have but, if all you are doing is looking for a fight you cannot possibly win then I have better things to do. It's your move!

 

[cfultz3]

Why did Jesus say " [h=1]"Elah, Elah, Lama Sabachthani?" " Google what "Ellah " means btw the first Arabic bible was translated in the 8th century while the Quran was sent down in the 6th century . The truth is clear from a lie .[/h]

Elah (God of the Hebrew Bible) DOES NOT EQUAL Allah (the name of Mohammad's clan god).

So tell me, in Jehovah's Bible, He says that He has a Son. In Allah's Bible, he says that he has NO son. If those two bibles are sent from the same God, then at which point do we call God a bold faced LIAR?

If God says that He has a Son, do we then call Him a liar? Or do we do so when He says that He has no Son?

If there is such a contradiction, then, at one point, all those who say that Jehovah and Allah are the same God and that He sent both bibles must also be calling God a liar.

So, what do you say?

--Chris

 

[cfultz3]

Think about it!!!

Would God not be lying if He says He has a Son and then say that He does not have a Son? One of them has to be the father of that lie.

 

[morninglory]

Elah (God of the Hebrew Bible) DOES NOT EQUAL Allah (the name of Mohammad's clan god).

So tell me, in Jehovah's Bible, He says that He has a Son. In Allah's Bible, he says that he has NO son. If those two bibles are sent from the same God, then at which point do we call God a bold faced LIAR?

If God says that He has a Son, do we then call Him a liar? Or do we do so when He says that He has no Son?

If there is such a contradiction, then, at one point, all those who say that Jehovah and Allah are the same God and that He sent both bibles must also be calling God a liar.

So, what do you say?

--Chris

Mark 15.34 does not say "Elah", it says "Eloi, for the record;

 

[cfultz3]

Mark 15.34 does not say "Elah", it says "Eloi, for the record;

As concerning the name "Elah":
Names of God in Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Elah is not Allah.

Listen closely to how the one I was replying to changed that and not me....

 

[Maitreya]

The bible was originally written a number of years after the death of Jesus Christ.Now my question is the King James Version is based on a later manuscript compared to the New International Version which uses a manuscript earlier to the death of Jesus Christ?
In 1 John Chapter 5 Verse 7
The King James Version states :"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." This sounds like the trinity
However the earlier manuscript in the New International version states : "For there are three that testify"

Isn't this proof an alteration to the later manuscripts and show a sense of corruption.If you disagree please note why you do.Thank you, keep in my mind it isn't my intention to offend nor hurt anyone.

Not inherently. Bearing witness and testifying are for all intents and purposes, the same thing.

However, subtle translations in English words can make a huge difference. For instance 'end' and 'conclusion'.

 

[Maitreya]

And to the above posts, phonetically, I believe the Aramaic 'Alaw' sounds like 'Allah', with the elongated last syllable. I think that this means 'father' and not 'God'.

'a-LAWh'

The 'yahweh' term is a title I believe, and means 'the eternal'. In arabic it is 'Al-Samad' or 'Al-Rab- - 'the always'. I've also seen the Aramaic for 'father' spelled 'abba', and people have used the term Eloi for God. I've heard Eli, and also Eloha, Elohim and Adonai (my God).

Jehovah is a translation of the YHWH abbreviation, I believe.

But yes, if you heard Jesus speaking, God would most likely be 'Allaah' or 'Allaha' or something very similar. They all come from the old testament days and Aramaic and Arabic share a lot of linguistic similarities. It doesn't surprise me.

 

[cfultz3]

Elah says He has a Son....

Allah says he has no son....

One of them is a liar........

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you, briefly i can share one example that the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT is an evident prove the truth Helper in my misunderstanding between two Translations. His unfailing Help to me, i confess as an unworthy and undeserving believer, proves HE is always faithful in representing CHRIST, even to an unworthy and undeserving constantly grieving HIM student of the Kingdom of GOD because of CHRIST's Grace and Truth until for now while meantime still available.

As it is written in the CEV (Contemporary English Version, first given to me as a gift while still being a pagan), that;
"Every women who prophesy and pray should have a covering on their head in order to honor their heads................................................."

But in the ESV (English Standard Version, that later inspired and lead me to continue in) and many others, i find that it only talks about married women? i prayed regarding this contradictions that people may ask and we must be able to answer, especially to believers, since we cannot convince unbelievers without they having a revelation of GOD.

When we trust the HOLY SPIRIT who can sum them all Translations up in a sound doctrine, will teach us that the answer illuminates like this and it is for 'every women' to comply because angels are their witnesses;
1. Men or Women who are believers, our first marriage is with CHRIST, as the 'Head' of the church and GOD the 'HEAD' of CHRIST. Also in a physical Christian marriage, the man is the 'head' of the family.
2. There is no two ways about the truth, in order to compromise and cause divisions among believers (church). But only one that speaks in sound doctrine, that only comes from the HOLY SPIRIT. HE is our Truth Helper and Teacher, who will to faithfully if we allow, in time imparts accordingly to our ability to receive and also calls us to impart on others. For they are life and spirit Words of CHRIST and it's heart beat, beats for all who are a living proof of born again of the Kingdom of GOD church. This is the only given established, New Covenant order to all who believe, to come into submission and behave in an orderly conduct and together offer an orderly worship in spirit and truth to the Living GOD. They will live as one loving CHRIST rooted and centered community (body), laboring together and fighting a Good fight to defeat evil with Good. They are also united in togetherness, willfully pray in 'one' accord and 'one' purpose for the Kingdom of GOD.
3. All are called to come into submission to that 'One' ('Trinity') and being a truth bearer and living, bear true witnessing onto others who are lost.

Conclusion;
No point in reasoning and diluting the established New Covenant Living Truth written in the Holy Bible, in order to please others even to the itching ears in the very same church one worships in the name of love. Sadly that is not of GOD but closely pretends to be of, the hidden deceptions, compromising the Living Truth Love of GOD, causing even today many who are genuine prepared by GOD, to go astray again and causing many who are fake unknowingly prepared by satan to remain and be a fake witness, deceiving others until today. This is because of us compromises that very much grieves the very HOLY SPIRIT sent as our Helper until today and HE has never given up on us because of CHRIST JESUS our LORD.

How long do we want to continue to test the LORD our GOD in all our weakness and foolishness, living as coheirs of the dead in false witnessing of deceit?

 

[lookingforthetruth]

You question logic as though you were practicing it... Paul was devouted to the true God, the same God that manifested in Jesus Christ to "reconcile the world unto himself"(2 Cor.5.19). Only someone who truly loved God and understood "the pricks" that the true God hates, could do the work that was set before Paul(Acts 9.5, Num.33.55, Acts.17.22-23-30). His task was to convert pagans to Christ, and still keep them from thinking that keeping the law was how to accomplish being a Christian. The obscurity that allows Paul's writings to be miss perceived, is part of how "God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to his gospel"(Rom.2.16). Paul was a chosen vessel, and it is not good to speek against him.

Hashem Tzidkeinu

So since god manifested in Jesus that means Jesus was god right ? then ""In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." since jesus is god isnt god in the apostles ? which mean theyre also god because the god manifised within them idk what ur on about . you say i dont have logic lmao prove to me i dont have logic by disproving my points with logic none of you have .

 

[lookingforthetruth]

Since we come from two vastly different backgrounds it is obvious that in order for us to continue our discussion, we must find a single point of reference. If you are truly interested in how to read the Bible and learn what the Bible has to say about the nature of God is there any chance that we can start over and begin addressing this topic from the sole vantage point of the Bible?

Start by proving to me where Jesus claimed divinity ?

 

[lookingforthetruth]

What translation are you reading? I have a copy of the greek, and the word is not elah

Ellah is the Hebrew word for god check a search engine or something im not bothered to go into the basics

 

[lookingforthetruth]

"Lookingforthe truth, no beating around the bush"?!!! The very words you used to start this thread is a deception, whether you know it or not, you are not here to find the truth, you are here to try to confound those that have found it, or at least have potiential to find it. What you don't know, is that once the Shepherd's voice has been heard, the true sheep cannot follow another. You need to sign on in another name now and try a different approach, because this one failed.

See you say i 'm makiung up lies and so on yet haven't i made responses based on logic and further on used quotes to backup my ideas? Instead all of you say im liers im liers and mention no textual evidence and if you do its not realted to the topic but its rather a quote that has nothing to do with the topic <> . Don't talk all wise like your so confident your right yeah ? Do you know what jesus will tell the christians on the day of judgment ? "Lord lord did we not prophesise in your name and cast out demons in your name ? Jesus: Begone i did not know you workers of evil " WHo proclaims in the name of jesus christ ? not the muslims or the jews or the hindus or the aethiests so ask yourself that question and if you think you can give me a REAL answer

 

[lookingforthetruth]

Muhammad was no prophet and you have no interest in truth. All you are doing is attempting to push an ungodly agenda.

My statements are more truthful then yours .I'm using scientific,historical,textual,philosophical evidence . What are you using ? Absolutely nothing just your subjective obviously cultural influenced values.

 

[lookingforthetruth]

LFT, Now I understand where you are coming from... I am the first to admitt that I know nothing about the Quarn, but I did read the history of Mohammad, and so I would like to ask you a few questions;

What promises, if any, did Mohammad make?

What predictions for the end times are made in the Quarn?

When were the first and last writings in the Quarn?

Was it all in the same language(I'm sure it was)?

Did it have more than one person to write it(it more than likely did if it is old)?

Do you know their names and their history?

That is all I can think of for the moment, but am intersted in your answers.

1.Muhammad nicknamed this guy called Khalid Bin Walid as safyalaah which translated to sword of allah.This person khalid bin walid fought over 50 battles and won them all( ithink ) .On his death bed he admitted he was trying to kill himself in war for matyrdom then his wife told him you were nicknamed the sword of god nothing could stop you . That's one prediction .Another prophecy Prophet Muahmmad(saw) made to the muslims were that we would conquer Constantinople idk how to spell it which came later to be true and there are 72 minor signs for the coming of judgment day he predicted most of them already fullfilled ill link it at he bottom.One thing the prophet(saw) said is " The Prophet (saws) said, 'Some people of this Ummah(Nation) will be swallowed up by the earth, some will be transformed into animals, and some will be bombarded with stones.' One of the Muslims asked, 'When will that be, O Messenger of Allah?' He said, 'When singers and musical instruments will become popular, and much wine will be drunk.'" "
2.Predictions made are few : 1. that Jesus(saw) will come back to destroy the cross because he was never crucified , and kill the swine (pig) because he said don't eat pig yet the Christians eat pig and the muslims don't .Also, that Jesus will kill the anti christ .There are so many ill give u a link again at the bottom but another prediction would be that judgement day would happen on a Friday . This topic again links back to the minor signs which i've linked at the bottom .
3.The quran only has one version unlike the bible and it was all written down by the time the prohpet(saw) died however it was all over the place so the calipha uthma ibn khatib gathered them up and made it into one book and it is the only holy book on earth with original manuscripts because god promised {We have, without doubt, sent down the Reminder [i.e., the Quran]; and We will assuredly guard it [from corruption].} (Al-Hijr 15:9) .
4.There is only one Quran which is in Arabic plus in prayer for 1400 years it has been recited and memorised which further reinforces its authenticity so if you try to change anything in one chapter the other muslims who have memorised it will notice immediately .
5.The prophet(saw) spoke and since he was illerate whatever he spoke was recorded down by 2 people and he made them recite what they wrote back to him . At the time you would be persecuted for being a muslim so these people were only his close friends or slaves of society
6.We know their names and history even their relation to the prophet and we even know the full name of the Prophet Muhammad(saw) which is Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim and any of his companions .Their history is constantly recited as they were the examples for mankind eg Abu bakr a man who was so rich he gave it all for the sake of the god ( allah )

Minor Signs

 

[lookingforthetruth]

Elah (God of the Hebrew Bible) DOES NOT EQUAL Allah (the name of Mohammad's clan god).

So tell me, in Jehovah's Bible, He says that He has a Son. In Allah's Bible, he says that he has NO son. If those two bibles are sent from the same God, then at which point do we call God a bold faced LIAR?

If God says that He has a Son, do we then call Him a liar? Or do we do so when He says that He has no Son?

If there is such a contradiction, then, at one point, all those who say that Jehovah and Allah are the same God and that He sent both bibles must also be calling God a liar.

So, what do you say?

--Chris

I'll answer that with two simple quotations 1 .From the bible let's see how jesus prayed ""And he (Jesus) went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed..."-(MATTHEW 26:39). " Hmm funny the muslims pray the way Jesus prayed don't you think ? now the quran says"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn." it is saying the modern day scriptures are corrupted because mathew , luke, john which is open knowledge conflicted with one another meaning they didnt have their details right