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Depends on what version of Calvinism you choose. Calvinism can range from strong Trinitarianism, such as even the Methodists practice who are not reputed to be Calvinists, to hyper-Calvinism aka TULIP which is perhaps more reflective of Calvin's successors. Calvin's problems undoubtedly start with strong Trinitarianism. Even today that are some Calvinists who think that the fact that Servetus was roasted over a slow fire at Calvin's prosecution of him was a job well done, simply because he refused to use the term "God the Son." Calvin's admirers have yet to provide an adequate explanation for his conduct. Another problem is Calvin's lax prosecution of adultery occurring within his own family. Instead of executing the adulterous wife of his brother, she was simply let go, like it was "carry on committing adultery then."
The fact is that Calvin was a deeply flawed character, and his flaws lie partly in his infatuation with Augustine who never really got over his Manicheaism which is reflected in his doctrine of original sin, and dualism of predestined/not predestined etc. Predestination is an attribute of God and can seldom be imported from heaven down to earth in order to reach premature and meaningless judgements. Likewise a trinity of relevation of God cannot be imported from earth into heaven to derive a trinity of Gods, which the terms God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost infer.
The fact is that Calvin was a deeply flawed character, and his flaws lie partly in his infatuation with Augustine who never really got over his Manicheaism which is reflected in his doctrine of original sin, and dualism of predestined/not predestined etc. Predestination is an attribute of God and can seldom be imported from heaven down to earth in order to reach premature and meaningless judgements. Likewise a trinity of relevation of God cannot be imported from earth into heaven to derive a trinity of Gods, which the terms God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost infer.
Calvinism is pure heresy and is extremely dangerous.
Strip all the fluff from it and what you have is a message which denies HEART PURITY in salvation. Due to this denial of heart purity the Gospel must be presented within the framework of a provisional cloak which in effect "covers over" an ongoing state of "inward filthiness."
Calvinists will NEVER discuss the issue of heart purity in depth. They will gloss over it because they uphold the notion of "Total Depravity," a state which they believe CONTINUES in those whom are saved.
Calvinism is a philosophical system which basically teaches "sin you will and sin you must" and that salvation is wrought a "positional cloak" of the "righteousness of Jesus."
Bottom line it is "ye can sin and not surely die" dressed up for the modern age.
Strip all the fluff from it and what you have is a message which denies HEART PURITY in salvation. Due to this denial of heart purity the Gospel must be presented within the framework of a provisional cloak which in effect "covers over" an ongoing state of "inward filthiness."
Calvinists will NEVER discuss the issue of heart purity in depth. They will gloss over it because they uphold the notion of "Total Depravity," a state which they believe CONTINUES in those whom are saved.
Calvinism is a philosophical system which basically teaches "sin you will and sin you must" and that salvation is wrought a "positional cloak" of the "righteousness of Jesus."
Bottom line it is "ye can sin and not surely die" dressed up for the modern age.
OP, yeah I think its sort of funny how there even is Calvinism and Armenianism... I think we should more so focus on what we can clearly understand instead. It'd be better if there wasn't a conflict.
Anyways. I'm not 100% sure on Calvinism vs. Armenianism... but if I'd had to choose a side Armenianism intuitively makes a heck load more sense. The Calvinist says God chooses. Well, yes he has...
Ezekiel 18:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
God wants us to turn away from sin and live...But, I think its implied very well that he extends his hand... not forces it, as the Calvinist thinks. He was willing to die for the world... not a certain few.
Also, the entire Bible would be God's mockery of humans if Calvinism is true... right? I mean that's his message to us so we can be convinced about him. Like... yeah here's the Bible... knock yourself out.. Oh but hey it doesn't matter if you read it or care about it and me... only I choose who gets saved.
Also... this...
[h=3]Romans 2:14-15[/h]
[SUP]14 [/SUP]for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, [SUP]15 [/SUP]who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) [SUP]16[/SUP]
We know right in our hearts... we can choose
That's my take on it.
Anyways. I'm not 100% sure on Calvinism vs. Armenianism... but if I'd had to choose a side Armenianism intuitively makes a heck load more sense. The Calvinist says God chooses. Well, yes he has...
Ezekiel 18:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
God wants us to turn away from sin and live...But, I think its implied very well that he extends his hand... not forces it, as the Calvinist thinks. He was willing to die for the world... not a certain few.
Also, the entire Bible would be God's mockery of humans if Calvinism is true... right? I mean that's his message to us so we can be convinced about him. Like... yeah here's the Bible... knock yourself out.. Oh but hey it doesn't matter if you read it or care about it and me... only I choose who gets saved.
Also... this...
[h=3]Romans 2:14-15[/h]
[SUP]14 [/SUP]for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, [SUP]15 [/SUP]who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) [SUP]16[/SUP]
We know right in our hearts... we can choose
That's my take on it.
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Calvinists believe that sin is a "birth calamity" and that sinners "sin by necessity" and therefore depict sinners as "victims" as opposed to "criminals."
I quote from Chapter 6 of the Westminster Confession...
Section 4 above clearly teaches that sinners sin due to the state in which they are born. Thus it is not their fault. The danger of this view is that it undermines repentance because a sinner cannot take responsibility for their sins if they believe they were basically "made to sin." Calvinism teaches that we are born as "sin robots."
In Section 5 of Chapter 6 of the Westminster Confession it states...
See how they teach that "sinners are guilty resultant of a birth condition." The error is in teaching that people are guilty simply due to being born as opposed to being guilty as a result of misusing their free will. The justice of God is completely undermined in Calvinism for He condemns "sin robots" who by "birth nature" can "only sin." Calvinists might try and uphold personal responsibility but they are in contradiction with their foundation when they do so.
Also notice how they teach that the "corruption of nature remains" in the regenerated. Calvinists do not make a consistent distinction between "temptation" (see Jam 1:14-15) and "rebellion." In Calvinism a regenerated Christian is still evil within due to the "corruption of nature" due to being in a "flesh body." They tie "sin" to the "flesh" which is actually rooted in ancient Greek philosophy. This notion of the "flesh itself" being associated with a "corruption of nature" infiltrated early Christianity through the Gnostics between the 2nd and 4th centuries.
Thus due to this "corruption of nature" remaining in the regenerated the Calvinists teach that the "obedience of Jesus" is credited to the account of those whom are saved. I quote from 11 of the Westminster Confession...
What the Calvinists are doing is treating Jesus Christ as a CLOAK for ONGOING SINFULNESS. They have to do this because they deny heart purity in salvation. So instead of Jesus giving Himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify us and make us zealous of good works (Tit 2:14) like the Bible says, they teach that Jesus gave Himself for us to effect a provisional cloak where God in effect PRETENDS that you are Jesus and on that basis declares you as righteous.
The Bible specifically states that Jesus condemned sin in the flesh that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us (Rom 8:3-4). In other words God wants to effect an internal cleansing of the heart whereby we walk in true righteousness. Not a righteousness obtained by the law but rather by the faith of Jesus Christ.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Calvinists twist that on its head with their purely "provisional" salvation. They completely disconnect the actual condition of the heart from the salvation experience due to their adherence to the "inborn corruption" doctrine they hold.
Look at this section of the Westminster Confession where they teach that the regenerate can be actively engaged in wickedness. This is from Chapter 17...
So in their theology a Christian could be committing adultery, committing murder, stealing, lying or cheating and still be in the "bubble" of being CLOAKED with the track record of Jesus Christ. It is for this reason they cannot effectively speak against any sin. Listen to all their preaching and it is all within the framework of you SHOULD not sin. They teach you "should not sin" but due the corruption that remains that "you will sin." Thus there is simply no sin which can keep one out of the kingdom.
Calvinism is a sin defending religion disguised as godliness.
I quote from Chapter 6 of the Westminster Confession...
Section 4 above clearly teaches that sinners sin due to the state in which they are born. Thus it is not their fault. The danger of this view is that it undermines repentance because a sinner cannot take responsibility for their sins if they believe they were basically "made to sin." Calvinism teaches that we are born as "sin robots."
In Section 5 of Chapter 6 of the Westminster Confession it states...
See how they teach that "sinners are guilty resultant of a birth condition." The error is in teaching that people are guilty simply due to being born as opposed to being guilty as a result of misusing their free will. The justice of God is completely undermined in Calvinism for He condemns "sin robots" who by "birth nature" can "only sin." Calvinists might try and uphold personal responsibility but they are in contradiction with their foundation when they do so.
Also notice how they teach that the "corruption of nature remains" in the regenerated. Calvinists do not make a consistent distinction between "temptation" (see Jam 1:14-15) and "rebellion." In Calvinism a regenerated Christian is still evil within due to the "corruption of nature" due to being in a "flesh body." They tie "sin" to the "flesh" which is actually rooted in ancient Greek philosophy. This notion of the "flesh itself" being associated with a "corruption of nature" infiltrated early Christianity through the Gnostics between the 2nd and 4th centuries.
Thus due to this "corruption of nature" remaining in the regenerated the Calvinists teach that the "obedience of Jesus" is credited to the account of those whom are saved. I quote from 11 of the Westminster Confession...
What the Calvinists are doing is treating Jesus Christ as a CLOAK for ONGOING SINFULNESS. They have to do this because they deny heart purity in salvation. So instead of Jesus giving Himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify us and make us zealous of good works (Tit 2:14) like the Bible says, they teach that Jesus gave Himself for us to effect a provisional cloak where God in effect PRETENDS that you are Jesus and on that basis declares you as righteous.
The Bible specifically states that Jesus condemned sin in the flesh that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us (Rom 8:3-4). In other words God wants to effect an internal cleansing of the heart whereby we walk in true righteousness. Not a righteousness obtained by the law but rather by the faith of Jesus Christ.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Calvinists twist that on its head with their purely "provisional" salvation. They completely disconnect the actual condition of the heart from the salvation experience due to their adherence to the "inborn corruption" doctrine they hold.
Look at this section of the Westminster Confession where they teach that the regenerate can be actively engaged in wickedness. This is from Chapter 17...
So in their theology a Christian could be committing adultery, committing murder, stealing, lying or cheating and still be in the "bubble" of being CLOAKED with the track record of Jesus Christ. It is for this reason they cannot effectively speak against any sin. Listen to all their preaching and it is all within the framework of you SHOULD not sin. They teach you "should not sin" but due the corruption that remains that "you will sin." Thus there is simply no sin which can keep one out of the kingdom.
Calvinism is a sin defending religion disguised as godliness.
Does it really glorify God if he makes people sinners by default and then chooses to save some of them and not others?
I heard a parable once about a fireman who would save people from fires. This fireman was given much credit due to his bravery in saving many people from many fires. Yet after a time it was revealed that the fireman was actually starting all the fires in the first place. This information changed everything.
The god of the Calvinists makes "sin robots" who sin because they are "programmed to sin." This god of the Calvinists then elects certain sin robots to salvation and "partially" reprograms them. These "partially" reprogrammed sin robots never stop sinning but simply sin a little less over time and somehow this glorifies this god of the Calvinists.
John Calvin believed that it was dreadful that "unelect infants" perished in their sins.
Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
He was forced to conclude this because of his belief in human beings being born "sin robots" who are already condemned. What a horrible thing to believe.
Calvinists believe that this...
... is totally depraved and already condemned by God.
The god of Calvinism is a monster. The god of Calvinism is also a fiction.
note: Not all Calvinists believe that some babies are condemned to perish due to the horrible thought of such a teaching and hot it contradicts conscience. Thus many will teach that somehow the "obedience of Jesus" is reckoned to their account by proxy.
I heard a parable once about a fireman who would save people from fires. This fireman was given much credit due to his bravery in saving many people from many fires. Yet after a time it was revealed that the fireman was actually starting all the fires in the first place. This information changed everything.
The god of the Calvinists makes "sin robots" who sin because they are "programmed to sin." This god of the Calvinists then elects certain sin robots to salvation and "partially" reprograms them. These "partially" reprogrammed sin robots never stop sinning but simply sin a little less over time and somehow this glorifies this god of the Calvinists.
John Calvin believed that it was dreadful that "unelect infants" perished in their sins.
Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
He was forced to conclude this because of his belief in human beings being born "sin robots" who are already condemned. What a horrible thing to believe.
Calvinists believe that this...
... is totally depraved and already condemned by God.
The god of Calvinism is a monster. The god of Calvinism is also a fiction.
note: Not all Calvinists believe that some babies are condemned to perish due to the horrible thought of such a teaching and hot it contradicts conscience. Thus many will teach that somehow the "obedience of Jesus" is reckoned to their account by proxy.
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It is very easy to throw names around isn't it?
See how this response twisted my words. Calvinists always do this. They cannot directly address legitimate criticism, they have to create strawmen to undermine such criticism. They are intellectually and spiritually bankrupt.
I never said that "people are good and do not deserve hell." I implied that BABIES are not born evil and thus already condemned. Those whom are condemned sinned by choice and are thus fully responsible for the misuse of their free agency in yielding to the lusts of the flesh and sinning.
God does not condemn people because they were born. God condemns people because they willfully rejected the light.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Cain was condemned because he rejected the light and chose to do evil.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Notice in the above passage how God tells Cain that "sin was lying at the door" but that he "should rule over sin." Cain rejected that counsel and let his jealousy consume him unto an act of murder.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Sin is a result of yielding to temptation, it is not necessitated by a birth state.
Instead of addressing these issue the Calvinist will often resort to Ad Hominem because their position collapses when its foundation is exposed.
Eve sinned due to being drawn away by her own lust and enticed, then her lust was conceived and it brought forth sin, and sin when it was finished brought forth death.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
That is why Christians crucify the lusts of the flesh (Gal 5:24) and live the crucified life (Gal 2:20). We are not to love the world nor the things in the world. Instead of walking after the lusts of the flesh we walk according to the leading of the Spirit.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Temptation is common to man but God does not suffer us to be tempted above that which we are able and thus we are always able to take the way of escape.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Calvinists teach the opposite. They teach that the "corruption remains" in those whom are regenerated and thus the regenerated "sin they will and sin they must" and therefore salvation is nothing but a provisional abstract cloak. Which brings us right back to the Calvinists denial of heart purity in salvation. Heart purity is the one topic they avoid like the plague.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
See how this response twisted my words. Calvinists always do this. They cannot directly address legitimate criticism, they have to create strawmen to undermine such criticism. They are intellectually and spiritually bankrupt.
I never said that "people are good and do not deserve hell." I implied that BABIES are not born evil and thus already condemned. Those whom are condemned sinned by choice and are thus fully responsible for the misuse of their free agency in yielding to the lusts of the flesh and sinning.
God does not condemn people because they were born. God condemns people because they willfully rejected the light.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Cain was condemned because he rejected the light and chose to do evil.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Notice in the above passage how God tells Cain that "sin was lying at the door" but that he "should rule over sin." Cain rejected that counsel and let his jealousy consume him unto an act of murder.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Sin is a result of yielding to temptation, it is not necessitated by a birth state.
Instead of addressing these issue the Calvinist will often resort to Ad Hominem because their position collapses when its foundation is exposed.
Eve sinned due to being drawn away by her own lust and enticed, then her lust was conceived and it brought forth sin, and sin when it was finished brought forth death.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
That is why Christians crucify the lusts of the flesh (Gal 5:24) and live the crucified life (Gal 2:20). We are not to love the world nor the things in the world. Instead of walking after the lusts of the flesh we walk according to the leading of the Spirit.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Temptation is common to man but God does not suffer us to be tempted above that which we are able and thus we are always able to take the way of escape.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Calvinists teach the opposite. They teach that the "corruption remains" in those whom are regenerated and thus the regenerated "sin they will and sin they must" and therefore salvation is nothing but a provisional abstract cloak. Which brings us right back to the Calvinists denial of heart purity in salvation. Heart purity is the one topic they avoid like the plague.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
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T
The OP called for us to put doctrinal differences aside, and the posts inflamate doctrinal differences.
Most Calvinists believe that they will be saved anyway, so we must go and be the preachers that bring the word. The world is full of Calvinist evangelists.
Many Arminians are quite active trying to help people to Christ.
Take away the Calvinists and the Arminians from the Christian movement and what is left of the hands and feet of Christ on earth?
Most Calvinists believe that they will be saved anyway, so we must go and be the preachers that bring the word. The world is full of Calvinist evangelists.
Many Arminians are quite active trying to help people to Christ.
Take away the Calvinists and the Arminians from the Christian movement and what is left of the hands and feet of Christ on earth?
Error cannot simply be "dismissed" and "put aside."
Jude wrote...
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Neither Calvinism or Arminianism contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. Both systems of theology operate within the framework of "inability" being wrought via the notion of being "born a sinner" and thus both by necessity have to preach a salvation which is lacking in heart purity.
Calvinism teaches that the inward depravity is cloaked via the obedience of Christ being credited to the depraved persons account.
Early Arminian's taught that a "Second Work of Grace" purged the inward depravity over a period of time. Theologians like Adam Clarke for example taught that one would not enter the kingdom unless "entire sanctification" was reached through this "second work of grace." Many modern Arminian theologians have back peddled on this and believe very similarly to the Calvinists that the death of Christ effects a cloak for ongoing wickedness.
Then we have the Moral Government folks (like Finney and many modern street preachers) thrown in the mix who vehemently attack Calvinism and deny Original Sin yet still seem to lack an understanding as to how "sin is purged."
This is why it is very important to be very diligent in our own studies as it is very easy to be misled by the doctrines of men.
We must earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints and this is the doctrine according to godliness through the cross where we die with Christ, come clean with God about our rebellion, seek His mercy, abide in Him, and are totally transformed from the inside out through the quickening of His grace.
Salvation is all about the transformation of the heart. It has nothing to do with anything provisional whatsoever. It is essential to see the difference.
Jude wrote...
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Neither Calvinism or Arminianism contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. Both systems of theology operate within the framework of "inability" being wrought via the notion of being "born a sinner" and thus both by necessity have to preach a salvation which is lacking in heart purity.
Calvinism teaches that the inward depravity is cloaked via the obedience of Christ being credited to the depraved persons account.
Early Arminian's taught that a "Second Work of Grace" purged the inward depravity over a period of time. Theologians like Adam Clarke for example taught that one would not enter the kingdom unless "entire sanctification" was reached through this "second work of grace." Many modern Arminian theologians have back peddled on this and believe very similarly to the Calvinists that the death of Christ effects a cloak for ongoing wickedness.
Then we have the Moral Government folks (like Finney and many modern street preachers) thrown in the mix who vehemently attack Calvinism and deny Original Sin yet still seem to lack an understanding as to how "sin is purged."
This is why it is very important to be very diligent in our own studies as it is very easy to be misled by the doctrines of men.
We must earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints and this is the doctrine according to godliness through the cross where we die with Christ, come clean with God about our rebellion, seek His mercy, abide in Him, and are totally transformed from the inside out through the quickening of His grace.
Salvation is all about the transformation of the heart. It has nothing to do with anything provisional whatsoever. It is essential to see the difference.
The purging of sin occurs in repentance where an individual comes into an agreement with God about their rebellion. In doing so we come clean with God and change our mind about our rebellion. We forsake our rebellion once and for all and lean on Christ. The axe is laid to the root of sin once and for all. There is no serving two masters.
The repentance process is where we die to the service of sin and we are henceforth raised up to newness of life where we abide in the Spirit. It is a total transformation of the heart. Our hearts become clean and pure and then we, as little children, grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ as He teaches us.
Most theology undermines this transformation taking place because they preach salvation as an abstract state apart from a manifest state. Thus people are taught to focus on "who they are in Christ" when their actual heart condition is one of rebellion to God. This abstract salvation theology is a most deadly deception and it fools millions because it tickles the ears. It is very soothing for a sinner to be presented with the implication that he is a victim of sin and that Jesus understands and that by simply trusting in Jesus they are effectively looked at by God as something other than they actually are.
It is for the above reason that the churches are full of sin. Very few, if any, within the church system are truly repenting. Satan has been able to undermine the Biblical teaching of repentance through the introduction of systematic theology.
Most people listen to the celebrity preachers and those who have been indoctrinated in seminary into this notion of believing in an abstract salvation. Jesus warned that FEW would be saved but that MANY would follow the false teachers. The false teachers are everywhere today. They are on TV, on radio, their books fill the Christian bookstores, their doctrine is taught in the seminaries.
The repentance process is where we die to the service of sin and we are henceforth raised up to newness of life where we abide in the Spirit. It is a total transformation of the heart. Our hearts become clean and pure and then we, as little children, grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ as He teaches us.
Most theology undermines this transformation taking place because they preach salvation as an abstract state apart from a manifest state. Thus people are taught to focus on "who they are in Christ" when their actual heart condition is one of rebellion to God. This abstract salvation theology is a most deadly deception and it fools millions because it tickles the ears. It is very soothing for a sinner to be presented with the implication that he is a victim of sin and that Jesus understands and that by simply trusting in Jesus they are effectively looked at by God as something other than they actually are.
It is for the above reason that the churches are full of sin. Very few, if any, within the church system are truly repenting. Satan has been able to undermine the Biblical teaching of repentance through the introduction of systematic theology.
Most people listen to the celebrity preachers and those who have been indoctrinated in seminary into this notion of believing in an abstract salvation. Jesus warned that FEW would be saved but that MANY would follow the false teachers. The false teachers are everywhere today. They are on TV, on radio, their books fill the Christian bookstores, their doctrine is taught in the seminaries.
I don't think that any Christian can be a true follower of God when he says he follows any man, even if that man says he is led only by the bible. Every person sees darkly, why follow someone else's darkness? I have often had my eyes opened to a truth of God by listening to a person's view of scripture, but it is only after going to the original scripture with listening to God's voice and with prayer.
I would concur, I haven't really read anything by Calvin, had a friend ask me, if I believed that man was totally depraved - i said yes, she asked if I believed in predestination and election, I say yes, asked if I believe that God is sovereign, etc, I said yes, said I was a Calvinist - had to ask what that was.
I never really claimed to be Calvanist, he's not in the Bible - but there are a lot of plain things in scripture that line up with Calvanist views or doctrines of Grace. The longer I walk on this earth - i see my own propensity for wickedness, and need for grace. I see that I didn't just decide one day to believe on Christ, I was drawn. It is not an intellectual assent to a few doctrines, it's regeneration by being born again by the Holy Spirit - an act of the Divine
I think doctrines of Grace lead me more to depend on God's grace, and His mercy. Knowing that in me nothing good dwells. They let me see the glory of Christ and His work on the cross for me, His goodness, His Grace, His justice, His holiness - beyond anything I could ever think of on my own.
I never really claimed to be Calvanist, he's not in the Bible - but there are a lot of plain things in scripture that line up with Calvanist views or doctrines of Grace. The longer I walk on this earth - i see my own propensity for wickedness, and need for grace. I see that I didn't just decide one day to believe on Christ, I was drawn. It is not an intellectual assent to a few doctrines, it's regeneration by being born again by the Holy Spirit - an act of the Divine
I think doctrines of Grace lead me more to depend on God's grace, and His mercy. Knowing that in me nothing good dwells. They let me see the glory of Christ and His work on the cross for me, His goodness, His Grace, His justice, His holiness - beyond anything I could ever think of on my own.
We do agree. You are studying what a man says, but only to check him with scripture. You are following scripture, not Calvin.
I found a man on the net who gives bible lessons. He has studied deeply, using a lot of information the dead sea scrolls opened up of what people used to know. Worries me, because he seems to me to speak truth. I have absolutely begged others to join me in the study to check me that I am not following this man but only learning about truth from God.
I found a man on the net who gives bible lessons. He has studied deeply, using a lot of information the dead sea scrolls opened up of what people used to know. Worries me, because he seems to me to speak truth. I have absolutely begged others to join me in the study to check me that I am not following this man but only learning about truth from God.
Do you know the mind of God?
Let's take "Unconditional election." Where does it ever say that in the bible? Nowhere.
Unconditional election is what someone has "reasoned" to be the case, based on their own human assessment of how God would have decided matters, had God been them. Yet God is not them. So how on earth do they know? Are they God?
Pure gnosticism. And completely unscriptural [TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]
Pro 30:6 "Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar."
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Let's take "Unconditional election." Where does it ever say that in the bible? Nowhere.
Unconditional election is what someone has "reasoned" to be the case, based on their own human assessment of how God would have decided matters, had God been them. Yet God is not them. So how on earth do they know? Are they God?
Pure gnosticism. And completely unscriptural [TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Whether one has studied the writings of John Calvin is really beside the point. Most people who adhere to the TULIP believe it simply because that is what they have been exposed to in their local church and are completely oblivious as to how such a theological system was developed. One does not have to read Karl Marx to be a Communist either, nor does one have to read Charles Darwin to be a Darwinist, nor does one have to read the Humanist Manifesto to be a Humanist.
The reason many scriptures appear to line up with Calvinism is because the Bible is approached through a bias and the various passages are used as proof texts. If one is to approach the Bible like a child without a philosophical bias and read the specific proof texts that the Calvinists use in CONTEXT and in HARMONY with the rest of the Bible the system collapses like a house of cards.
For example, Calvinists will often quote Isa 64:6 that "all our righteousness is as filthy rags" as a proof text for Total Depravity. Yet that verse does not exist in isolation from the rest of Isaiah 64 where it is clearly evident that Isaiah is speaking in general about men in rebellion. Isaiah is not making a doctrinal claim that "anything one does" is as a filthy rag before God. Was the sacrifice of Abel a filthy rag before God? Of course not. Calvinists ignore the context and harmony of the Bible again and again and when called on it simply jump to the next proof text in their list.
The issue of God's sovereignty is a major stronghold in the mind of a Calvinist. They are so fearful of undermining the sovereignty of God that they simply cannot speak of men as having ANYTHING to do with their own salvation. To the Calvinist such an idea undermines an all powerful God.
God is most definitely sovereign but not in the sense that such sovereignty abrogates free will. God is the SOVEREIGN JUDGE and sets the SOVEREIGN STANDARD of conduct for His creation. Yet God does not overrule men being able to CHOOSE as to whether they want to abide in God's standard or rebel against it.
The existence of virtue is hinged on the existence of choice. Charity cannot exist unless it is within the context of a choice being made. This is why philosophical systems like socialism and communist are not charitable because they involve force. Jesus preached charity being manifest from a pure heart whereby giving is completely voluntary.
If God "makes people good" against their will then those people are not really good. There is no virtue or vice in a robot. Robots only follow their programming and in effect are amoral.
Another example of how the Calvinist will apply Scripture within the biased framework of their philosophy is with 2Cor 5:21. This verse...
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
... is very often used as a proof text for the "blessed exchange" (Martin Luther's term) whereby it is taught that Jesus has the sin of men credited to His account and that believers have the righteousness of Jesus credited to theirs. In essence this is what makes such an "abstract salvation" possible in the eyes of the reformed thinker.
Yet the Calvinist will NEVER quote the next verse in the passage...
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
I have never ever seen a reformed theologian connect 2Cor 6:1 to 2Cor 5:21. You see the Bible is not a book of proof texts, rather it is a harmonious message given to create a picture in our minds of eternal truths.
Christian's are "made the righteousness of God in Him" through "working together with God." In other words we COOPERATE with God. The word for "working together" in the Greek is "sunergeo" from which the English word "synergy" is derived. Reformed Theology teaches what is known as MONERGISM and is vehemently opposed to SYNERGISM even though the Bible clearly teaches synergism.
2Cor 5:21 is not speaking of some forensic judicial legal transaction whereby God "cloaks" a sinner with a "foreign righteousness," rather it is speaking of how God actually "makes people righteous" through them "abiding" and therefore "cooperating" with the lead (grace) of God, which is EXACTLY what Jesus Christ taught.
Calvinists are so convinced that their entrance into the kingdom is hinged on this "blessed exchange" having taken place and in so doing they end up in denial of the absolute necessity of "heart transformation." It is an absolute and utter tragedy that this has happened. There are going to be millions upon millions of people who will stand before Jesus Christ at the judgement who will discover to their absolute horror that they are rejected as "workers of iniquity." There was no "blessed exchange," such a notion was a total deception conceived in the minds of men, no doubt influence by the wicked one.
The "Doctrines of Grace" in Calvinism totally butcher the grace of the Bible and twist it into something other than it really is. The Bible clearly defines grace...
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Grace is the leading of God. Grace is the divine influence of God upon the hearts of men. It is the divine influence of God upon the hearts of men that brings salvation to anyone who yields to it and thus cooperates with God. That is what the Bible teaches.
Paul uses the term grace in connection with being inwardly quickened.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
There is nothing "irresistible" about grace. The resistance to God's grace ceases through REPENTANCE which is wrought through GODLY SORROW.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
Godly sorrow works repentance unto a genuine salvation experience. An experience where one is quickened together with Christ whereby we are set free from the bondage of serving sin. Calvinists ignore that completely and instead proof text isolated passages here and there and fluff it out with RHETORIC. Then many people blindly believe this rhetoric because it sounds good and they unwittingly become Calvinists having never even read the writings of John Calvin.
The reason many scriptures appear to line up with Calvinism is because the Bible is approached through a bias and the various passages are used as proof texts. If one is to approach the Bible like a child without a philosophical bias and read the specific proof texts that the Calvinists use in CONTEXT and in HARMONY with the rest of the Bible the system collapses like a house of cards.
For example, Calvinists will often quote Isa 64:6 that "all our righteousness is as filthy rags" as a proof text for Total Depravity. Yet that verse does not exist in isolation from the rest of Isaiah 64 where it is clearly evident that Isaiah is speaking in general about men in rebellion. Isaiah is not making a doctrinal claim that "anything one does" is as a filthy rag before God. Was the sacrifice of Abel a filthy rag before God? Of course not. Calvinists ignore the context and harmony of the Bible again and again and when called on it simply jump to the next proof text in their list.
The issue of God's sovereignty is a major stronghold in the mind of a Calvinist. They are so fearful of undermining the sovereignty of God that they simply cannot speak of men as having ANYTHING to do with their own salvation. To the Calvinist such an idea undermines an all powerful God.
God is most definitely sovereign but not in the sense that such sovereignty abrogates free will. God is the SOVEREIGN JUDGE and sets the SOVEREIGN STANDARD of conduct for His creation. Yet God does not overrule men being able to CHOOSE as to whether they want to abide in God's standard or rebel against it.
The existence of virtue is hinged on the existence of choice. Charity cannot exist unless it is within the context of a choice being made. This is why philosophical systems like socialism and communist are not charitable because they involve force. Jesus preached charity being manifest from a pure heart whereby giving is completely voluntary.
If God "makes people good" against their will then those people are not really good. There is no virtue or vice in a robot. Robots only follow their programming and in effect are amoral.
Another example of how the Calvinist will apply Scripture within the biased framework of their philosophy is with 2Cor 5:21. This verse...
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
... is very often used as a proof text for the "blessed exchange" (Martin Luther's term) whereby it is taught that Jesus has the sin of men credited to His account and that believers have the righteousness of Jesus credited to theirs. In essence this is what makes such an "abstract salvation" possible in the eyes of the reformed thinker.
Yet the Calvinist will NEVER quote the next verse in the passage...
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
I have never ever seen a reformed theologian connect 2Cor 6:1 to 2Cor 5:21. You see the Bible is not a book of proof texts, rather it is a harmonious message given to create a picture in our minds of eternal truths.
Christian's are "made the righteousness of God in Him" through "working together with God." In other words we COOPERATE with God. The word for "working together" in the Greek is "sunergeo" from which the English word "synergy" is derived. Reformed Theology teaches what is known as MONERGISM and is vehemently opposed to SYNERGISM even though the Bible clearly teaches synergism.
2Cor 5:21 is not speaking of some forensic judicial legal transaction whereby God "cloaks" a sinner with a "foreign righteousness," rather it is speaking of how God actually "makes people righteous" through them "abiding" and therefore "cooperating" with the lead (grace) of God, which is EXACTLY what Jesus Christ taught.
Calvinists are so convinced that their entrance into the kingdom is hinged on this "blessed exchange" having taken place and in so doing they end up in denial of the absolute necessity of "heart transformation." It is an absolute and utter tragedy that this has happened. There are going to be millions upon millions of people who will stand before Jesus Christ at the judgement who will discover to their absolute horror that they are rejected as "workers of iniquity." There was no "blessed exchange," such a notion was a total deception conceived in the minds of men, no doubt influence by the wicked one.
The "Doctrines of Grace" in Calvinism totally butcher the grace of the Bible and twist it into something other than it really is. The Bible clearly defines grace...
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Grace is the leading of God. Grace is the divine influence of God upon the hearts of men. It is the divine influence of God upon the hearts of men that brings salvation to anyone who yields to it and thus cooperates with God. That is what the Bible teaches.
Paul uses the term grace in connection with being inwardly quickened.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
There is nothing "irresistible" about grace. The resistance to God's grace ceases through REPENTANCE which is wrought through GODLY SORROW.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
Godly sorrow works repentance unto a genuine salvation experience. An experience where one is quickened together with Christ whereby we are set free from the bondage of serving sin. Calvinists ignore that completely and instead proof text isolated passages here and there and fluff it out with RHETORIC. Then many people blindly believe this rhetoric because it sounds good and they unwittingly become Calvinists having never even read the writings of John Calvin.
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