There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

[oldhermit]

Any student of Biblical Greek knows this.

Well, strictly speaking this is true. However, in the ancient Greek the idea of the indefinite was identified by the use of the indefinite adjective. For example: τις, τι meaning a certain one and the plural form τινές, and τινά meaning some, or ένιοι,-αι,-α. These were used in the same way we would use a or an in English to modify something that is not specified.

 

[cfultz3]

Since there are no indefinite articles in Greek, and since there is but One God, then Jesus could not be a god, but God in 1 John. Since only God is worshippable, and since God told the angels to worship the Son, then Jesus is God and not a god.

 

[Bowman]

Well, strictly speaking this is true. However, in the ancient Greek the idea of the indefinite was identified by the use of the indefinite adjective. For example: τις, τι meaning a certain one and the plural form τινές, and τινά meaning some, or ένιοι,-αι,-α. These were used in the same way we would use a or an in English to modify something that is not specified.

Thus....'a'....or...'an' needs to be artificially inserted into English translations if the original Greek warrants it.

JW's cannot provide any grammatical reasons for their rendering of this instance in John.

 

[Bowman]

Since there are no indefinite articles in Greek, and since there is but One God, then Jesus could not be a god, but God in 1 John. Since only God is worshippable, and since God told the angels to worship the Son, then Jesus is God and not a god.

That's correct...

 

[oldhermit]

Thus....'a'....or...'an' needs to be artificially inserted into English translations if the original Greek warrants it.

JW's cannot provide any grammatical reasons for their rendering of this instance in John.

Exactly, but the rules of grammar in this case go far beyond just this

 

[BananaPie]

...hmm... Perhaps Bowman meant that the Greek does not have the indefinite articles "a," "an" as the English does.

Correct me here. It's my understanding that in the Greek, the word "God" as expressed in John 1:1 never has the definite article "the." The same syntax applies in Spanish, "...y el Verbo era Dios" (...and the Word was God.)

Therefore, it's grammatically incorrect to translate, ..."and the word was the god," but JW are determined to stick to Watchtower dogma, so they add an indefinite article "a" to read "...and the word was a god."

The problem now is that Greek lacks the indefinite article "a," "an" altogether, which makes the NWT a forgery.

​

 

[Bowman]

Exactly, but the rules of grammar in this case go far beyond just this

Indeed.....and we know that there are other NT locations where, grammatically, Jesus is directly called Theos.

JW's can't be bothered with those verses, either....

 

[oldhermit]

...hmm... Perhaps Bowman meant that the Greek does not have the indefinite articles "a," "an" as the English does.

Correct me here. It's my understanding that in the Greek, the word "God" as expressed in John 1:1 never has the definite article "the." The same syntax applies in Spanish, "...y el Verbo era Dios" (...and the Word was God.)

Therefore, it's grammatically incorrect to translate, ..."and the word was the god," but JW are determined to stick to Watchtower dogma, so they add an indefinite article "a" to read "...and the word was a god."

The problem now is that Greek lacks the indefinite article "a," "an" altogether, which makes the NWT a forgery.

εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος .

Koine Greek normally drops the article in a prepositional phrase. The absence of the article in a prepositional phrase is normal, and doesn't mean anything. It is the INCLUSION of the article in a prepositional phrase that is unusual, and thus, means something.

Thus, the prepositional phrase "εν αρχη" doesn't contain an article, but is still properly translated "in THE beginning." The prepositional phrase "προς τον θεον," however, does include the article (τον). Since it was proper NOT to include it, the inclusion here means something. In general, the inclusion of an article when it is not expected means you are being specific (a particular individual who is God). In order to fully understand how that effects this verse, we need to go to the last clause.

To understand the implications of the last clause, you need to learn about more Greek syntax. First, Greek distinguishes the role a noun plays in a sentence by changing the case. In general, if the noun is the subject, it is in the nominative case. If it is the direct object, it is in the accusative case.

However, there is a strange class of verbs that do not take a direct object, they take a predicate (there are THREE verbs that do
this in Koine Greek). This means that you have TWO nouns that are the same case (nominative), where one is the subject, and one is the predicate. So if both are in the same case, how do you know which is the subject, and which is the predicate?

Here are the rules:
1. If both nouns have the article attached, then the first is the subject, the second is the predicate.
2. If NEITHER noun has the article attached, then the first is the subject, the second is the predicate.
3. If ONE has an article, but the other does not, then the one WITH the article is the subject, and the one without the article is the predicate.
So in the phrase "και θεος ην ο λογος", we see that λογος has an article (o) and θεος does not. Thus o λογος is the subject, while θεος is the predicate. The Word was God.

 

[GreenNnice]

Exactly..............

And, all I have to add on this is 'amundo.'



=================================
SwingmealongLord: The trinity is illogical....


Is it? Yes, it is, YOU are right, milady Awwww, but, keep reading because believing in Christ as our Saviour, as our leader in our lives, as His Spirit interacts (dwells) with ours......

The best way to put things before I go on: The trinity is the illogical (unsaid in Scripture by exact word) Truth . Scripture speaks of a trinity , a triune power of God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, all One, working together, of each other, helping, advocating, friending, etc., 'helps' to man in life.


So, swingingwithmyLord, you say this, 'The trinity is illogical.'

And, wouldn't one go to say that having faith in an 'invisible God' is illogical.
Logic is not about believing in God, that is, from a tangible presence standpoint, it takes more than tangible belief in God.

Right? How can one believe by SEEING Him face-to-face when no one has seen Him face to face, in fact, no one can see God face to face in this present life. His glory is too brilliant.

So, seeing Him? Yeah, ILLOGICAL to think ANYONE on EArth has the priviledge to see God when Scripture says that NO MAN CAN see Him.
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So, these are your words, swingmealongLord and am I wrong to think that when you talk about the trinity making people feel not close to God, then, you are saying this because someone cannot see Jesus, God, nor the Holy Spirit EVER in physical form?

Originally posted by SwingmealongLord:

The Trinity doctrine is an illogical, non-Bible based teaching. Many are confused by this falsehood...and as a result do not feel close to God; or feel real love or real connection to/ for God because this erroneous teaching

So, what about this verse that says we are supposed to belief in God by faith, in the 'unseen' things of God BY FAITH ???

how does this verse fit in to your above quote of your OP, swingmealongLord? You are talking about a person's personal relationship with God, which is to be with Jesus, because Jesus, who was God in the flesh (manifested) and is who we relate to from His being on Earth.

So, I can only assume that the below verses from Hebrews speak illogically to you, too, especially the bold-faced verse.

Hebrews 11: 1-3

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. 3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.



So, by faith, this is how one believes in God, believes in the universe created by Him, believes in Abraham really having been 'the father of all nations,' believes that Enoch really never died but was 'transfered' taken to heaven without experiencing death......

 

[posthuman]

But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
(Hebrews 1:8)

God the father calls Jesus "God."

Acts ch. 5 makes it clear that Peter equates the Holy Spirit with God.

we know God is one God.

now what is the difficulty, seriously.

 

[Swingalong]

Hi alexis, you are a very humble and kind young lady and it is very refreshing to read your appreciative responses. Your sincerity in wanting to find the truth will be rewarded one day. Just make sure that what you learn makes logical sense (Acts 17:11) God wants us to understand His Word the Bible and who He and Jesus really are. He wants us to know the real truth. Remember, God is a God of order and not of confusion or disorder. I have chosen not to respond anymore to the negative unchristlike conversations on this post. I do not have to fight with these people because I have said or stated my firm stand on what I believe. However, alexis if you wish you may PM me anytime if you have any questions or concerns.

First sorry for my negative involvement in that name calling thing that went on here.

Second I'm learning a lot and you are kind and helpful so can I ask what you believe about Jesus and The Holy Spirit?
I am aware you don't believe in the trinity but I'm not sure I understand what you believe. Please know I respect your view and am genuinely interested in your response

Plus I'd like to get your thread back on subject!

 

[cfultz3]

I saw this and felt it needed replying to. My reply is not aimed at anyone and is why I deleted the name of the one who posted it.

There are over 500 verses, maybe more, that oppose the idea of the trinity either in direct statements or non-direct ways in which Jesus talks about God as being outside himself or it is implied.
.
.
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1. Mark 13.32 But of that day or that hour of judgement, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the Father.

This simply indicates that They are two separate "entities", inasmuch as two people are not the same person. They each have Their own "personal" make-up and is why there are more than One presence in the word "us" of the passage which says, "Let Us man make in our image".

Examples:

1) God the Father wanted God the Word to come to Earth and be His Messenger. The Word, willing to fulfill that will, obliged, and willfully gave Himself to that purpose when God the Father spoke it.

2) At one time God the Father said, "Let there be" and it was then that God the Word created.

So, God the Word waits upon God the Father to speak to know His will (and that will He spoke as He was COMMANDED).

But, does that make God the Word, who was the incarnated Son, any less God, when it was said of God the Word that He IS the Creator of all things, and that He UPHOLDS all things by His OWN power, and that He, also the Messenger of the Lord, is the One who can be sinned against (seeing that, spiritually speaking, only God can be sinned against when we go against His will), or even that the Son receives the sort of worship He once denied to oblige Satan with?

Let it be the LORD who is true when He said, "He is our Savior". The LORD came and we called him "Lord".

 

[Bowman]

God wants us to understand His Word the Bible and who He and Jesus really are.

Is Jesus your God and Savior?

Yes or no...

 

[BananaPie]

...God wants us to understand His Word the Bible and who He and Jesus really are. He wants us to know the real truth...

Swingalong,

The real truth is that you are a practicing Jehovah Witness who has come to this Christian Chat website to flood the Bible Forum with Watchtower Society dogma as all Jehovah Witnesses before you have done.

We, as Christians, have no animosity towards you, but you need to be honest with yourself to admit that we DO believe Jesus is God, divine and Holy. That's the truth we Christians are very much convinced upon our hearts.

For you to come here to flood the Forums with dogma contrary to what we believe is already not understanding God, whom we adore and worship. Christians have never believed the Arian way as you do. What makes you believe you & the Watchtower Society can change the truths we Christians have learned directly from God's Word? ...just saying.

 

[VCO]

Naturally, Satan will USE so-called "real Greek scholars" and so-called 'christians' with biased, uniformed, inaccurate, opinions against Jehovah's Witnesses. Much of their negative information against Jehovah's Witnesses and the Organization we proudly are affiliated with, is chalked full of hearsay, and second and third party information that is designed to make Jehovah's Witness appear as a non-Christian cult. Sadly, many people believe these falsehoods. It is no surprise or shock that these false allegations are out there. As a matter of fact we, Jehovah's Witnesses, expect it. We were forewarned by the Scriptures, that Satan, by any means necessary will spread hatred and lies toward true servants of Jehovah God (Matthew 5:11,12; 2nd Timothy 3:12). One of the tools and means that he is using is the "weed like", "spiritually toxic" christians that have overran the earth in general. There is no proof of what they, so-called "scholars" assert against Jehovah's Witnesses. The organization that I proudly am affiliated with does not use secular quotes from other sources UNLESS, that source ABSOLUTELY backs up what the Bible says, and even then, that source is seriously scrutinized as to how others will be affected because of using that reference work. We, true Christians, have always been the underdog. This fact only serves to strengthen me; and encourages me to continue talking about and supporting the "good news of God's Kingdom" and anything that relates to it, because it is proof that I am in the right religion. I realize and accept the fact that this post will make me very unpopular and even more hated by "weed-like" Christians. Yet, I am not in the business of impressing humans or being popular with humans. I want to make a "name" with Jehovah God, not "mere dust". Oh well, it definitely goes with the "territory" and that is part of "picking up" my "torture stake" which I happily accept (Luke 9:23)

Now if and person or group adds his words or his comments to the Word of GOD, is not that person or group a False Prophet?

The Watchtower Society's Translation Team admitted in the Foreword of their Second Edition of NWT that they openly admitted that they lifted their footnotes into the Text, which makes them a False Prophet. PLEASE CHECK ME OUT, I typed that foreword letter for letter from that green hardback edition or the Second Edition of the New World Translation. PLEASE read it for yourself, they omitted that confession in the foreword of the Third Edition and never mentioned it in their teachings again. THAT IS WHERE "a god" came from in John 1:1, creating a false second god in the minds of all Jehovah Witnesses which violates Prov. 30:6 and contradicts what GOD said in Isaiah 43:10.

Proverbs 30:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Isaiah 43:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

The Watchtower Society then is the FALSE PROPHET that created a false second god and false Christ by adding their footnotes into the text of John 1:1, and they are therefore proven to be a liar because of what the LORD said plainly in Isaiah 43:10.

Deuteronomy 18:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

How do you put to death a Society or Organization that is teaching falsely? YOU CEASE TO READ AND FOLLOW THEIR TEACHINGS.

Another PROVEN false prophet that the Jehovah Witnesses have sadly fallen for is their Founder Charles Taze Russell himself. On this following link, some of the proof of his being a false prophet is presented, and they hyperlink a picture of the very paragraph of the false prophecy in the original publication. The Watchtower Society has a reputation of covering up such failed prophecies, simply by republishing the books changing the wording that validates them as a False Prophet. Charles Taze Russell False Prophet Jehovahs Witnesses Founder

 

[VCO]

Is Jesus your God and Savior?

Yes or no...

YES, and more importantly HE IS MY LORD which means MASTER.

John 1:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God.

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him,

 

[GreenNnice]

Swingalong,

The real truth is that you are a practicing Jehovah Witness who has come to this Christian Chat website to flood the Bible Forum with Watchtower Society dogma as all Jehovah Witnesses before you have done.

We, as Christians, have no animosity towards you, but you need to be honest with yourself to admit that we DO believe Jesus is God, divine and Holy. That's the truth we Christians are very much convinced upon our hearts.

For you to come here to flood the Forums with dogma contrary to what we believe is already not understanding God, whom we adore and worship. Christians have never believed the Arian way as you do. What makes you believe you & the Watchtower Society can change the truths we Christians have learned directly from God's Word? ...just saying.

Yes . What she said

Well said, bananaanapie.
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You say, swingmealongLord, that you choose to not "respond to the posts that are negative and unChristlike."

I don't think people have been mean at all to you, and, certainly not, unChristlike, as you put it, they have simply presented Scripture that proves the trinity is Truth of Scripture, though the word is not mentioned in the bible.

It's undeniable that there is a triune power going on in Scripture and it is the power of God, at times, shown, in the bible, and, at times, it's the power of Jesus, and, at times, shown, it's the power of the Holy Spirit, at times, shown.

So why do you deny Jesus His deity, who is the Deity, our Mighty God, Holy One ?

Again, I've tried to use rational thought for you to understand God is Jesus is Holy Spirit, it's quite simple in its most simplified shown form, like Jesus, seeing God in the sky and the dove on His shoulder, symbolizing the Holy Spirit in bird form, most holy, WHITE, bird form, pure, when Jesus came out of the water, having been baptized by John.

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Then, in my most recent post, SwingmealongLord, I analyzed your words, as I was led by the Lord, I hope and pray, to show that someone is going to feel farther away from God if they look at the trinity in the wrong Light. Get it? Light He is so many names, including the name above all names. He is Lord. He is Almighty God. He is Mighty Counselor. He is Prince Of Peace. He is Messiah. He is Emmanuel, which means 'God with us,' for a name Jesus was given on EArth. He is God. He is Jesus. He is Holy Spirit. This is a 'three' understanding in Scripture as The Great Commission verses tell us, baptizing others in the name of the Father, the Son, and, the Holy Spirit.

Look at God in the light of your mind that is a 'mind of Christ,' as 1 Cor. 2 tells us we HAVE. We CAN'T think like God, but we do have 'the mind of Christ,' Paul tells us.

Jesus is our mediator, the One whom sits at the right hand of God. There are not two gods, there is One God in heaven, but in two forms. It would be WRONG (sorry, if caps bother, they're for emphasis.) Just WRONG! for God to be up in heaven and no Jesus, for Jesus is who came to Earth and showed us of God, whom, ONE DAY we will see face to face, sitting on His throne at the right hand of God

 

[cfultz3]

Again, I've tried to use rational thought for you to understand God is Jesus is Holy Spirit, it's quite simple in its most simplified shown form, like Jesus, seeing God in the sky and the dove on His shoulder, symbolizing the Holy Spirit in bird form, most holy, WHITE, bird form, pure, when Jesus came out of the water, having been baptized by John.

That surely describes my avatar. 3 presented in one animated verse......

 

[Huckleberry]

Hi alexis, you are a very humble and kind young lady and it is very refreshing to read your appreciative responses. Your sincerity in wanting to find the truth will be rewarded one day. Just make sure that what you learn makes logical sense (Acts 17:11) God wants us to understand His Word the Bible and who He and Jesus really are. He wants us to know the real truth. Remember, God is a God of order and not of confusion or disorder. I have chosen not to respond anymore to the negative unchristlike conversations on this post. I do not have to fight with these people because I have said or stated my firm stand on what I believe. However, alexis if you wish you may PM me anytime if you have any questions or concerns.

Kinda glossed right over the "Greek Challenge" and went straight for the young impressionable lady, eh?

Alexis, this lady is Jehovah's Witness.
Their theology denies virtually every essential doctrine of the Bible.
Beware of allowing her to poison your mind with her Satanic heresies.
If you engage her, know what you are facing.

Mods, I request you ban Swingalong for propagating heresies,
and attempting to subvert a young Christian lady.

 

[VCO]

Jesus is God the Son and Not the Father He was not praying to Himself hmmm

Wow, even the inmates understood this easily. God the Father is the "Shot Caller", God the Son "does the will of the Shot Caller, THE FATHER", God the Holy Spirit enables us to do the will of the Shot Caller the Father and the Son. JESUS has ALWAYS existed to do the will of the Father. He layed aside, NOT GAVE UP, His positional rights as Deity to become human and be tested or tempted as we are, remained sinless, and therefore became the ONLY spotless sacrifice for our sins. WHEN HE came up out of those grave clothes HE TOOK BACK HIS Shekinah Glory and positional rights as DEITY.

Three personages, three individual functions, ONE TRIUNE GOD.