Women and teaching in the church

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alexis

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The prohibition seems to be limited the teaching or even specking in the public assembly. As Paul admonishes, they are not even permitted to ask questions but, to wait until they get home and ask their men. The are forbidden to assume any role of leadership in the Church. As far as the classroom situation is concerned, the older women are instructed to teach the younger women to "be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored." Titus 2:3-5. These are things an older and more experienced woman is more qualified to do than any man.
Thank you!

Sorry if I got people questioning your response I asked and am grateful

This makes sense and is what I thought.

By reading this I take I'm fine to discuss things openly on this forum or at home. It's specific to place of worship.
not that I teach, not my goal. Just that I share my understanding and ask questions.
does it sound like I'm understanding?

God bless you for taking this time and all the other time you give me...
lexi
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
The only thing that women should teach in church are mime classes!!!

Keep the noise down, Ladies!!!

WOW...this is sad, this pic reminds me of all those Baptist and other protestant women I grew up around...and then later found out had been emotionally and mentally ritually abused for decades. It reminds me of all the Baptist pastors wives and deacons wives....bein a mime!

It reminds me of those stories I have heard that come from previous mimes, that came out of Protestant[mainly Baptist] ritualistic abusive homes and hearing the countless stories of sexual, mental and emotional abuses in male dominated protestant denominations. Hearing them recount all of the shunning they would go through, and the condemnation, guilt and horrors they faced.

This house of cards is falling and God will not be mocked and has risen up women to do what men won't.....
 
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oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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Thank you!

Sorry if I got people questioning your response I asked and am grateful

This makes sense and is what I thought.

By reading this I take I'm fine to discuss things openly on this forum or at home. It's specific to place of worship.
not that I teach, not my goal. Just that I share my understanding and ask questions.
does it sound like I'm understanding?

God bless you for taking this time and all the other time you give me...
lexi
Never be afraid to teach someone about God. Remember the example we have in Acts 18:26. "Priscilla and Aquila heard him preaching boldly in the synagogue, they took him aside and explained the way of God even more accurately."
 
I

Imperfect

Guest
see, alexis, i like her. shes understanding, accepting, humble, and she knows her role God gave her. and she knows its GOD who gave instruction, so im sure she will make some man happy some day for being a respectful, loving, and open to learning (growing and getting better) wife and mother. she doesnt seem like the type to show much resistance because 'she' doesnt see something as "fair".

alexis i commend you for coming in here where all the women (even a few men) in here before you were against the scripture. and you came in here and accepted it with no problem, no resistance. completely submissive to the Word. the spirit is within you.
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
The largest heresy on this topic is not if a woman can teach or preach, the greatest heresy is watching human minds absolutely reject the all powerful Sovereignty of ALMIGHTY GOD.

In his Sovereignty, God has risen up women in this day and age to become pastors and teachers, because men stopped being high priests 40 years ago.

I honeslty think that some of the ardent opponents of the fact women cannot be pastors/teachers, like ole hermie boy, see women in the pulpit as a direct challenge to their masculinity and hide behind human interpretations to keep women mired in the pit and under control. I think deep down these opponents are scared to death of women and especially duaghters of God!

Face it fellas, our history is not so great with the opposite sex...

No where in balck and white or red does the Bible say, using the words Pastor, Pastors, Preacher, Preach, preached, does it state a woman cannot be a preacher.

I think some fo you guys are simply scared to the core and are also helping to cover up the elephant in the room, that the high priest of the home and church vacated his rightful place 40 years ago.

Some of you Baptists ought to be really ashamed, because it's your own denomination that leads that race to nowhereville!!
I see more women in Baptist churches than men any more. In fact, church membership among women is higher than men...

What you men are hiding is the fact we have many across the church universal, that have failed and fallen down and do not want to be spiritual leaders and expect the wife to do that....but then how dare you get outraged when a protestant denomination like the Methodists have more women entering seminary, then men....

Newsflash for all you fella's that still are not getting it, women are more spiritual than men, that might tell you soemthing if you were not so eager in protecting your turf...

Last item, before this thread is tucked in for the evening...

my fellow brothers, read your Bible closely, wisdom is referred to as a woman in the Bible and wisdom is one of the 7 spirits of God

I think it would be the bazinga of the life time, if God showed up in heels
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
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1 Timothy 3:1-7 "It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnationincurred by the devil.7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."
I wanted to bring up this point again, because it didn't get addressed earlier.....

if we're going to use the passage from 1st Timothy to show that a pastor or leader needs to be a man, we would also need to hold the same criteria that a pastor or leader needs to be married and have children. So single men, or husbands without kids can't be pastors if we use 1st Timothy as a criteria list.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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I wanted to bring up this point again, because it didn't get addressed earlier.....

if we're going to use the passage from 1st Timothy to show that a pastor or leader needs to be a man, we would also need to hold the same criteria that a pastor or leader needs to be married and have children. So single men, or husbands without kids can't be pastors if we use 1st Timothy as a criteria list.
I do not think you and I are using the term Pastor in the same way. 1Tim. is not talking about a preacher but one who serves in the office of an elder.
 

KohenMatt

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Jun 28, 2013
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I do not think you and I are using the term Pastor in the same way. 1Tim. is not talking about a preacher but one who serves in the office of an elder.
OK then, elders can only be married men with kids. If you're single, or are married with no kids, you can't be an elder.
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
I wanted to bring up this point again, because it didn't get addressed earlier.....

if we're going to use the passage from 1st Timothy to show that a pastor or leader needs to be a man, we would also need to hold the same criteria that a pastor or leader needs to be married and have children. So single men, or husbands without kids can't be pastors if we use 1st Timothy as a criteria list.
That's a negative Ghost rider, the pattern is full :cool:

Don't ever, ever tell these men about rules found in the Bible they have to live up to...I mean really, heads will explode, dogs and cats will live together, mork and mindy...come on you know better...:D

Well said and well played matt
 

alexis

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see, alexis, i like her. shes understanding, accepting, humble, and she knows her role God gave her. and she knows its GOD who gave instruction, so im sure she will make some man happy some day for being a respectful, loving, and open to learning (growing and getting better) wife and mother. she doesnt seem like the type to show much resistance because 'she' doesnt see something as "fair".

alexis i commend you for coming in here where all the women (even a few men) in here before you were against the scripture. and you came in here and accepted it with no problem, no resistance. completely submissive to the Word. the spirit is within you.
Thank you for such kind words..

The credit is not mine but God's, he gives me an open heart to accept His love and word.

I hope someday to honor a husband... Pretty sure quite some years from now.
Until then and even then I try to honor my father and of course God

Happily I understood this scripture quite well and am pleased for those who helped confirm it
God bless and much love,

lexi
 
Nov 26, 2013
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by Matt Slick

Another argument raised by the egalitarians is to say that since there were female deacons, i.e., deaconesses as was Phoebe in Rom. 16:1, then it is possible to have been elders and pastors as women also. Some even cite early church literature which has various women deacons mentioned in different contexts. Let's take a look at both of these arguments.

First of all, the word "deacon" διάκονος (diakonos) and its cognates occur 31 times in the NT and is used in many different ways. Paul calls himself a minister (diakonos) of the gospel in Col. 1:23, 25. Paul went to Jerusalem to serve (diakonos) the saints, (Rom. 15:25). Mary spoke to the servants (diakonos) at the wedding in Cana (John 2:5). It is used of serving tables (Luke 17:8 and Acts 6:2). Jesus came not to be served, but to serve (diakonos), (Mark 10:45). The government is called a minister (diakonos) of God (Rom. 13:4). Tychicus is a minister (diakonos) of the Lord (Col. 4:7) as is Timotheus (1 Thess. 3:2).

Rom. 16:1 says, "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea." Many argue that since Pheobe is called a deacon, then it means women are eligible to hold the formal office of deacon. But this is not conclusive at all. Phoebe is simply called a servant (diakonon) which can be rendered differently in different Bibles: "minister" (Darby, YLT), "servant" (ASV, ESV, HCSB, ISV, KJV, NASB, NIV, NKJV), "helper" (NCV), "deacon" (NLT, NRSV), and "deaconess" (RSV).

The term "diakonos" is used of an office with special requirements that women cannot meet. "Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain," (1 Tim. 3:8). And,"Let deacons be husbands of only one wife [lit. one woman man'] and good managers of their children and their own households," (1 Tim. 3:12). See also Phil. 1:1.
 

Angela53510

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Jan 24, 2011
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Well, I am the real thing. I am a woman and I am a pastor/chaplain. I preach, teach the Word, lead worship and visit the sick and elderly in two long term care facilities. I do funerals and memorials and baptisms and so far, God has not struck me dead. In fact, I have been blessed to help encourage Christians and to be encouraged in return.

So, one more time for those who were not here for the lessons on the exegesis of the Greek. And yes, in Biblical times perhaps women had to be silent, because they were not educated, and came from pagan backgrounds. I am a woman who is neither stubborn nor ignorant, and I happen to know the Bible in the original languages.

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12

The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia.

Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.

The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to every scholarly source I have it means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat." So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's authority, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.

Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)

Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.

So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!

So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal. But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia.

And as far as the qualifications for deacons, the passage in 1 Tim. 3 has also been very poorly translated. For one thing, the word autos which is a close to HE as you can get in Greek, does not appear at all in verses 1-7. . In addition, it talks about "deacons" in verses like 1 Tim 3:8, 10, 12 and 13. The word in Greek is Διακόνους, or diakonous, which means servant in the plural. It is also inclusive, so it could well be talking about women and men deacons. Verse 11 is most telling. My ESV translates it as thus:

"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11

But this is in no way true to the Greek. The word used is γυναίκας, or gunaikas which in the UBS interlinear, actually has the word "deaconnesses" next to it. There is no THEIR in the passage in Greek. It is not in any way the "wives of the deacons." So it does give the qualifications for a woman - the same as a man!

As far as the office of pastor, I have yet to see anyone post a qualification for that office.

The big reference is Eph. 4:11:

"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Eph. 4:11-13

There is no place in the entire chapter that Paul says only men can hold these positions. In fact, the Greek uses the word "Some" or τοϋς, which definitely includes both genders!!

So that is the low down. Once again, the Greek has nothing against women being pastors. The biases of translators has created this absolutely false doctrine that women cannot be preachers, leaders or in authority (exousia) in the church.

Really, what it boils down to, is looking closely at who really has "pasa exousia" ALL AUTHORITY - and that is Christ!

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18
 

alexis

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Dec 5, 2013
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The largest heresy on this topic is not if a woman can teach or preach, the greatest heresy is watching human minds absolutely reject the all powerful Sovereignty of ALMIGHTY GOD.

In his Sovereignty, God has risen up women in this day and age to become pastors and teachers, because men stopped being high priests 40 years ago.

I honeslty think that some of the ardent opponents of the fact women cannot be pastors/teachers, like ole hermie boy, see women in the pulpit as a direct challenge to their masculinity and hide behind human interpretations to keep women mired in the pit and under control. I think deep down these opponents are scared to death of women and especially duaghters of God!

Face it fellas, our history is not so great with the opposite sex...

No where in balck and white or red does the Bible say, using the words Pastor, Pastors, Preacher, Preach, preached, does it state a woman cannot be a preacher.

I think some fo you guys are simply scared to the core and are also helping to cover up the elephant in the room, that the high priest of the home and church vacated his rightful place 40 years ago.

Some of you Baptists ought to be really ashamed, because it's your own denomination that leads that race to nowhereville!!
I see more women in Baptist churches than men any more. In fact, church membership among women is higher than men...

What you men are hiding is the fact we have many across the church universal, that have failed and fallen down and do not want to be spiritual leaders and expect the wife to do that....but then how dare you get outraged when a protestant denomination like the Methodists have more women entering seminary, then men....

Newsflash for all you fella's that still are not getting it, women are more spiritual than men, that might tell you soemthing if you were not so eager in protecting your turf...

Last item, before this thread is tucked in for the evening...

my fellow brothers, read your Bible closely, wisdom is referred to as a woman in the Bible and wisdom is one of the 7 spirits of God

I think it would be the bazinga of the life time, if God showed up in heels
I truly see valid points, other points much less valid.. One valid point is that women love church.. I know that's not your exact words. What I'm not understanding and I'm open to hearing is what does the text of 1Timothy and 2Timothy mean when speak of church leaders and also the scripture that says we are to not speak in the church?

I hope Christ finds me quite pure in heart. Though that does not mean I should lead the church. I am the only believer in my home but my fathere still sets the rules. I follow them. I pray for them to be lead by The Holy Spirit but I still must keep my place and honor and obey them..

Actually I don't think I'm making my point but you explain logically why women should lead. But can this be backed with scripture?

Not being rude seeking more perspectives
with love,
lexi
 
Nov 26, 2013
737
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0
Well, I am the real thing. I am a woman and I am a pastor/chaplain. I preach, teach the Word, lead worship and visit the sick and elderly in two long term care facilities. I do funerals and memorials and baptisms and so far, God has not struck me dead. In fact, I have been blessed to help encourage Christians and to be encouraged in return.

So, one more time for those who were not here for the lessons on the exegesis of the Greek. And yes, in Biblical times perhaps women had to be silent, because they were not educated, and came from pagan backgrounds. I am a woman who is neither stubborn nor ignorant, and I happen to know the Bible in the original languages.

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12

The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia.

Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.

The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to every scholarly source I have it means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat." So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's authority, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.

Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)

Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.

So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!

So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal. But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia.

And as far as the qualifications for deacons, the passage in 1 Tim. 3 has also been very poorly translated. For one thing, the word autos which is a close to HE as you can get in Greek, does not appear at all in verses 1-7. . In addition, it talks about "deacons" in verses like 1 Tim 3:8, 10, 12 and 13. The word in Greek is Διακόνους, or diakonous, which means servant in the plural. It is also inclusive, so it could well be talking about women and men deacons. Verse 11 is most telling. My ESV translates it as thus:

"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11

But this is in no way true to the Greek. The word used is γυναίκας, or gunaikas which in the UBS interlinear, actually has the word "deaconnesses" next to it. There is no THEIR in the passage in Greek. It is not in any way the "wives of the deacons." So it does give the qualifications for a woman - the same as a man!

As far as the office of pastor, I have yet to see anyone post a qualification for that office.

The big reference is Eph. 4:11:

"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Eph. 4:11-13

There is no place in the entire chapter that Paul says only men can hold these positions. In fact, the Greek uses the word "Some" or τοϋς, which definitely includes both genders!!

So that is the low down. Once again, the Greek has nothing against women being pastors. The biases of translators has created this absolutely false doctrine that women cannot be preachers, leaders or in authority (exousia) in the church.

Really, what it boils down to, is looking closely at who really has "pasa exousia" ALL AUTHORITY - and that is Christ!

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18

No disrepect sister

But i am also a lady and God says women are not to be pastors full stop

God has not struck down Joyce Myers yet and we know she is a false prophet because she preaches and also with her head uncover

Pastors are to be men thats why God said so woman are doing what Eve did to cause our Adams to fall
 
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alexis

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Dec 5, 2013
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Ignore my previous post it was written before the one before it... Ooops that reads funny but I'm dire people will understand what I'm saying
 
Nov 26, 2013
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I truly see valid points, other points much less valid.. One valid point is that women love church.. I know that's not your exact words. What I'm not understanding and I'm open to hearing is what does the text of 1Timothy and 2Timothy mean when speak of church leaders and also the scripture that says we are to not speak in the church?

I hope Christ finds me quite pure in heart. Though that does not mean I should lead the church. I am the only believer in my home but my fathere still sets the rules. I follow them. I pray for them to be lead by The Holy Spirit but I still must keep my place and honor and obey them..

Actually I don't think I'm making my point but you explain logically why women should lead. But can this be backed with scripture?

Not being rude seeking more perspectives
with love,
lexi

I am sure women can sing so speaking must be something of great significance


Women are not to be pastors I am ashamed of women who claim God called them to be pastors

God first not selfish desires
 

alexis

Banned by Admin Team (verified fraud)
Dec 5, 2013
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I am sure women can sing so speaking must be something of great significance


Women are not to be pastors I am ashamed of women who claim God called them to be pastors

God first not selfish desires
You know I always love you!
also I love to sing...

Kinda off subject but maybe not.. I have a horribly bad stutter.... Takes me like a week to read a sentence out loud. Okay it's bad but not that bad but I can sing without stuttering..

So singing is amazing for me but speaking is certainly of great significance! Especially when it's quite difficult.

I know that's not your point just where my thoughts went

Love you sister!
 
Feb 17, 2010
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How many pastors here are appointed by God? Remember God appointed you to perfect the saints. So if you are a PASTOR you need already to be a perfect MAN to perfect a saint.

God does NOT appoint ALL people to be preachers/teachers. It is DANGEROUS grounds if you want to preach/teach. Do you know that you put yourself up to a STRICTER judgement when you preach/teach?

Let me give you all some advice..... DO NOT ALL STRIVE TO BE PREACHERS/TEACHERS.... James warns about this. And note... He says BRETHREN.... My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

Oh boy the plot thickens....

Alexis, love you my child, you are way younger than my two eldest daughters, and one of them CAN SING.... Even the songs we write for God has to be 100% Scriptural. I jave not written one Yet, but I have lots of Truth in me already. I will soon write my first Song to God.

Lexi i want to share one miricle with you.... When I started reading the Bible I bought a electronic Bible and loaded it on a small laptop. Then when I got to Ps 119, up to verse 6, I started to type in word to God how I felt about our relationship.... I typed for about 90 minutes and when I read on, I discovered I wrote the whole Psalm. And I NEVER read it before....

You see Lexi, God is just so Truthful and Faithful. He worked on David, and David wrote the Psalm, and God works on me, and I could reproduce the same RELATIONSHIP. My dear young child, you truly have the right attitude to KNOW God. I pray God will write HIS Truth on your heart, and that you will always accept the truth of God, with a PURE SOUL AND HEART. Amen!

Zonie, do you wear a veil to church? Stephan do you pray with a hat on your head? EVER?

I ask Angela, are you perfect to perfect the saints in your church, do you have saints in your church...

All these well educated people, please post the definition of SAINT for us?
 

mystdancer50

Senior Member
Feb 26, 2012
2,522
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What a twist to support one's own need you donot really uphold the bible do you on this topic how sad


Pastor mystdancer50:)
Why, when we clarify here that Paul is speaking of his own preferences, it's heresy and twisting, yet when we approach the Scripture where Paul says that he wishes all remain single as he is single, it's acceptable to differentiate between God revelation and Paul's preference?
 
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