The Israel of God

[zone]

Their is no debate whatsoever that Jesus was born as king of the Jews and of Israel and to suggest otherwise is not wise. Jesus came unto his own and they did not receive him and rejected him. They did not want him to be the Christ nor to be their king and had him crucified. Jesus did not reign as king of the Jews nor of Israel and he had no throne but rather a cross, nor did he set up and restore the kingdom. The temple was destroyed and the Jews were dispersed without a kingdom. The church and body of Christ is what Christ built on earth by sending the Spirit to indwell believers that the gates of hell would not prevail against. There would be troubles, trials, persecutions and tribulations for the church but God would prevail and teach believers how to have dominion over the old sin nature and to endure with patience and longsuffering these other things. He would teach them how to receive grace and truth and to have peace and joy and walk in the light of his love. He would teach them how to be merciful and to forgive others and to be filled with the Spirit. These and much more were to be the principles of truth that would govern the lives of believers who would have no continuing city but would seek one to come.

The church was not designed nor given the authority to establish a kingdom on the earth that would have dominion over others or over nations. The church is given an abundance of grace multiplied to have fellowship, to overcome sin, to preach the gospel, to be servants and doormats and be considered the least. They are to take up a cross and decrease in the eyes of the world and lifted up the Son of man so that men could be drawn to the cross and receive a new life from above where Christ now sits. We as believers are strangers and sojourners just passing through in bodies of sin and death that is perishing. Read Acts 7 and tell me if you see a kingdom reigning or if you see grace reigning through the righteousness of the Spirit bringing conviction into the hearts of men that resulted in the persecution and death of a precious servant who being stoned fell sleep and was received into the presence of the Lord in heaven.

Paul had received by revelation a measure of grace according to God's purpose that he was to administer, dispense, oversee and manage in terms of its affairs, its doctrine and the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit.
This was to be done by faith and all under the stewardship of this grace that was given.
This was never offered to Israel nor was it a part of the commonwealth of Israel.
It was solely offered to the church as part of the manifold grace and wisdom of God according to God's purpose to reveal the mystery of Christ and the church.
It excluded Israel as a people and nation.....BradC

 

[BradC]

Paul had received by revelation a measure of grace according to God's purpose that he was to administer, dispense, oversee and manage in terms of its affairs, its doctrine and the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit.
This was to be done by faith and all under the stewardship of this grace that was given.
This was never offered to Israel nor was it a part of the commonwealth of Israel.
It was solely offered to the church as part of the manifold grace and wisdom of God according to God's purpose to reveal the mystery of Christ and the church.
It excluded Israel as a people and nation.....BradC

You take this quote out of its context and apply it were you will. That is what deceivers do as the serpent did when he told the woman, 'Hath God said'...'you shall not surely die'. For those who have sound doctrine it gets old like that serpent but for those who like to be stimulated in their deception they go on and rally with others to mock and make fun, as you and others have already done many times over. You have your cohorts and those who are energized against the promises of God for the people and nation of Israel and you discredit the truth and conviction that abides within the church as the pillar of the truth with the propagation of that deception that comes from that old serpent.

 

[dcontroversal]

I have always viewed and taught that it is about Israel. Israel, being called the "assembly" of the first born in the wilderness has much impact on me as a "gentile" believer who has been grafted in under the banner of Abraham's faith and being associated with the "seed and stock of Abraham".

 

[peacefulbeliever]

if you mean you want to reject that Paul said those who are in Christ are the Israel of God, and proceed to discuss the nation of ancient israel - being Jacob and his twelve sons - the twelve tribes - the "children of Israel", okay.

There were covenants made with Israel beside the "promised seed". Those who are in Christ (Jew and Gentile alike) are the body of Christ, Christ being the head.

Hosea 11:1
Out of Egypt I called my Son
1When Israel was a youth I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son. 2The more they called them, The more they went from them; They kept sacrificing to the Baals And burning incense to idols.

Matthew 2:15
where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

but isn't that spiritualizing?

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. This "promised seed" came through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob - from one of the twelve sons - Judah - tribe of Judah.

not only was Jesus the Second Adam, He was the Second Israel - the True Israel...standing in the stead for His people (who had failed and needed a Kinsman Redeemer)...but not all received Him...right?

i dunno....this is a difficult thing to work with.

Okay . . . I know Jesus was the second Adam - can't see where he is the second Israel . . . never heard nor read anything concerning that in scripture. As I said - any Jew or Gentile that believes in Christ are no longer considered Jew nor Gentile but part of the body, the Church. But that doesn't negate the fact that there are still Jew and Gentile.

right.

but not all Israel are Israel:

Romans 9:6
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

what does paul mean?
spiritualizing?
why is HE making a distinction between Israel and Israel?

The distinction is: "my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
They are not all Israel which are Israel (genetic bloodline).

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob - Jacob had twelve sons - all twelve tribes were considered Israel - Judah was one of them - our Lord's bloodline comes from the tribe of Judah - these are the children of the "promise" - the other 11 tribes were children of the flesh.

i posted a passage that said everlasting.
it included sacrificing animals to make atonement every year.
even IF that were to be resumed in a future millennium (which is preposterous)...it wasn't EVERLASTING since it hasn't been happening for 2000 years.

We have been promised everlasting life - has it ACTUALLY begun? or will it begin when we are resurrected in our glorified bodies?

WHAT COVENANT peaceful?
which is the Real Promise God has always been upholding?

Genesis 3:15
15And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Luke 24
On the Road to Emmaus
13That very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven milesa from Jerusalem, 14and they were talking with each other about all these things that had happened. 15While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. 16But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 17And he said to them, “What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?” And they stood still, looking sad. 18Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” 19And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. 21But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. 22Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, 23and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.” 25And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Galatians 3
By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected bya the flesh? 4Did you sufferb so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justifyc the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”d 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirite through faith.

The Law and the Promise
15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

I believe all the scripture concerning the "promised seed" - God kept his promise/covenant to Abraham concerning the "promised seed", Jesus Christ - Jesus Christ is the "red thread" throughout the scripture as God's solemn promise. BUT THAT was not all God promised him. After making the covenant to multiply him exceedingly, changing his name to Abraham, making him a father of many nations; God also promised in Genesis 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. - Genesis 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. (18) In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: This land with these boundaries have never yet been occupied by Abraham's seed - Why do you want to ignore that promise/covenant?

can you just please take a good long look at this dichotomy you believe?
just read that bit above and see how absurd it really is...i know you absorbed this from dispensationalism, peaceful, but you really really want to put it aside as soon as you can.

NO.

God did NOT permanently reject Israel and devise a distinct entity called the Church to have INSTEAD as his "chosen people"
The Church IS the destiny and the promises made to Israel (the twelve tribes)....those who BELIEVE.

why is this hard?

ANYONE who believes in Christ - belong to the Church. Because I ask you a question zone does not mean that it is HARD, nor does it mean I don't understand what you are saying

how can ANYONE continue with this line of thought in good conscience?
really....do you honestly, in your heart not know that ISRAEL WHO BELIEVED BECAME THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST HIS BODY?
this system is just astounding to me. it's like a BRICK WALL.

Yes, zone . . . I have repeatedly said I believe that any Jew or Gentile who believes in Christ become a part of the church Christ's body; BUT that doesn't make the church Israel because the whole of ISRAEL are not part of the church. . .

And you are not like a BRICK WALL. . . . .

huh?
what do you mean "when it comes to the promises of God"?

both/and?

there's ONE PROMISE.
salvation and blessing in Jesus Christ and eternal life with God.

One is not rejected over the other. . . .

There is more than ONE promise. . . . .what about the promise that God gave Noah? Gen. 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. . . .this is the token of the covenant which I make between me an you . . .for perpetual generations: I do set my bow in the cloud and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. . . .And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature. . . we see this today - everlasting covenant

The one God gave Abram in Genesis 17:8 in connection with the Land? And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; . . . We haven't seen this yet - Israel hasn't received their inheritance for an everlasting possession as yet

 

[zone]

You take this quote out of its context and apply it were you will.

there was no "context".

that's exactly what you said, and you meant it.

because you believe what he believes:

"Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary and a student of Scofield's, elaborated on this dichotomy between Israel and the church:


The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.[[11]]


For Chafer, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’[[12]] that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven."

Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology

That is what deceivers do

if you say so...Red33.

For those who have sound doctrine

is this sound doctrine Red33 a.k.a coconut?:

Paul had received by revelation a measure of grace according to God's purpose that he was to administer, dispense, oversee and manage in terms of its affairs, its doctrine and the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit.
This was to be done by faith and all under the stewardship of this grace that was given.
This was never offered to Israel nor was it a part of the commonwealth of Israel.
It was solely offered to the church as part of the manifold grace and wisdom of God according to God's purpose to reveal the mystery of Christ and the church.
It excluded Israel as a people and nation.....BradC

you're the one who said it - own it or tell what you really meant.

it gets old like that serpent but for those who like to be stimulated in their deception they go on and rally with others to mock and make fun, as you and others have already done many times over. You have your cohorts and those who are energized against the promises of God for the people and nation of Israel and you discredit the truth and conviction that abides within the church as the pillar of the truth with the propagation of that deception that comes from that old serpent.

well that is odd because you said:

Paul had received by revelation a measure of grace according to God's purpose that he was to administer, dispense, oversee and manage in terms of its affairs, its doctrine and the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit.
This was to be done by faith and all under the stewardship of this grace that was given.
This was never offered to Israel nor was it a part of the commonwealth of Israel.
It was solely offered to the church as part of the manifold grace and wisdom of God according to God's purpose to reveal the mystery of Christ and the church.
It excluded Israel as a people and nation.....BradC

whereas the Bible says:

1 Timothy 3
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

written by Paul, an Hebrew of Hebrews, who apparently lied about his identity:

"...doctrine and the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit.
It was solely offered to the church as part of the manifold grace and wisdom of God according to God's purpose to reveal the mystery of Christ and the church. It excluded Israel as a people and nation - BradC[/B]"

and just in case you plan to separate paul from the rest of the CHURCH who were jews/israel:

Galatians 2:9
James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

real hard, eh?

 

[zone]

There were covenants made with Israel beside the "promised seed".

o.k., the Promised Seed is Secondary for israel..i get it.

which ones do you want to discuss?
are they all in the future?
were they all unconditional?

Those who are in Christ (Jew and Gentile alike) are the body of Christ, Christ being the head.

what promises remain for the Church (those in Christ)?

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. This "promised seed" came through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob - from one of the twelve sons - Judah - tribe of Judah.

yes i know.
we have His genealogies.

Okay . . . I know Jesus was the second Adam - can't see where he is the second Israel . . . never heard nor read anything concerning that in scripture.

i posted it already.

Hosea 11:1
1When Israel was a youth I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son. 2The more they called them, The more they went from them; They kept sacrificing to the Baals And burning incense to idols.

Matthew 2:15
where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

 

[zone]

As I said - any Jew or Gentile that believes in Christ are no longer considered Jew nor Gentile but part of the body, the Church. But that doesn't negate the fact that there are still Jew and Gentile.

The distinction is: "my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
They are not all Israel which are Israel (genetic bloodline).

can we post the whole passage please? (are you reading from footnotes or a website)?
why are you cherry-picking?

Roman9
God’s Sovereign Choice
1I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,a my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

WHY WOULD HE SAY THAT IF ALL ISRAEL WAS GOING TO BE SAVED?

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

(WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ESAU HERE - WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ISRAEL - RIGHT?)

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israelc be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Israel’s Unbelief
30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousnessd did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”


SEE? THERE'S A CONDITION PEACEFUL.
whoever believes in him


WHAT DID PETER SAY ABOUT BEING THEM BEING - "the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed."?

Acts 3
11While he clung to Peter and John, all the people, utterly astounded, ran together to them in the portico called Solomon’s. 12And when Peter saw it he addressed the people: “Men of Israel, why do you wonder at this, or why do you stare at us, as though by our own power or piety we have made him walk? 13The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servantb Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. 14But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. 16And his name—by faith in his name—has made this man strong whom you see and know, and the faith that is through Jesusc has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all.

17“And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. 19Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. 22Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days. 25You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ 26God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”

DID THEY ALL REPENT AND BELIEVE?
NO.
did many? YES.

what was the condition of ANY PROMISE they had remaining?

Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out

does anyone receive eternal life without this?
are there ANY Promises for anyone without this?
only condemnation, peaceful.

i did not write it.

here - again - speaking IN ISRAEL:

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

We have been promised everlasting life - has it ACTUALLY begun? or will it begin when we are resurrected in our glorified bodies?

well, do you believe you are saved now?
are you in danger of hell?

here's John - Apostle to the Jews:

John 5:24
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

so why are the promises you look for (eternity with God) different from what you want for Israel?

what ultimately do you want for Israel?
anything LESS than what you are promised?

I believe all the scripture concerning the "promised seed" - God kept his promise/covenant to Abraham concerning the "promised seed", Jesus Christ - Jesus Christ is the "red thread" throughout the scripture as God's solemn promise. BUT THAT was not all God promised him. After making the covenant to multiply him exceedingly, changing his name to Abraham, making him a father of many nations; God also promised in Genesis 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. - Genesis 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. (18) In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: This land with these boundaries have never yet been occupied by Abraham's seed - Why do you want to ignore that promise/covenant? [/COLOR]

this has been addressed so many times. YES IT HAS BEEN FULFILLED.
Please read Joshua - all of it.

then again under David (and Solomon who doesn't really count as his line was not line Christ came through).
Jesus came through DAVID through Nathan through Heli to Mary.

the son of DAVID. are you expecting DAVID to reign from Jerusalem?

He is on the throne God promised David:

Acts 2
29“Dear brothers, think about this! You can be sure that the patriarch David wasn’t referring to himself, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us. 30But he was a prophet, and he knew God had promised with an oath that one of David’s own descendants would sit on his throne. 31David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead or allow his body to rot in the grave.

SEE THAT?
THAT'S WHAT DAVID PROPHESIED.
PETER CONFIRMED IT.
i'm not posting this again.


32“God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this. 33Now he is exalted to the place of highest honor in heaven, at God’s right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today. 34For David himself never ascended into heaven, yet he said,

‘The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
35until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet.”’

36“So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!”

ANYONE who believes in Christ - belong to the Church. Because I ask you a question zone does not mean that it is HARD, nor does it mean I don't understand what you are saying

Yes, zone . . . I have repeatedly said I believe that any Jew or Gentile who believes in Christ become a part of the church Christ's body; BUT that doesn't make the church Israel because the whole of ISRAEL are not part of the church. . .

SO..................................WHAT?
THE WHOLE OF ISRAEL
ISN'T BEING SAVED PEACEFUL.

the Church is THEIR PROMISE...we are grafted IN.

And you are not like a BRICK WALL. . . . . [/COLOR]

lol...okay...i'm sorry.
it's not you, it's this dispensational wrongly divided nightmare.
i love you.
yes, i'm a brick wall too.

One is not rejected over the other. . . .

There is more than ONE promise. . . . .what about the promise that God gave Noah? Gen. 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. . . .this is the token of the covenant which I make between me an you . . .for perpetual generations: I do set my bow in the cloud and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. . . .And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature. . . we see this today - everlasting covenant

will we see that in the new Heavens and earth New Jerusalem - as a SIGN that He won't flood the earth again???
really?

yes....we have rainbows in the world today.
there's a curse on the earth today.
He said he destroyed it ONCE by water, and the next time BY FIRE.

so everlasting? until it's destroyed by fire?

The one God gave Abram in Genesis 17:8 in connection with the Land? And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; . . . We haven't seen this yet - Israel hasn't received their inheritance for an everlasting possession as yet
[/COLOR]

whatever.

 

[BradC]

Paul had received by revelation a measure of grace according to God's purpose that he was to administer, dispense, oversee and manage in terms of its affairs, its doctrine and the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit.
This was to be done by faith and all under the stewardship of this grace that was given.
This was never offered to Israel nor was it a part of the commonwealth of Israel.
It was solely offered to the church as part of the manifold grace and wisdom of God according to God's purpose to reveal the mystery of Christ and the church.
It excluded Israel as a people and nation.....BradC

The bold text above is what you have a problem with, that statement bugs you to no end and puts ripples in your spinal cord.

Zone, other than hope, tell me one thing that the NT testament offered through the death. burial and resurrection of Christ that was made available to Israel and its commonwealth PRIOR TO THE CROSS?

Did God offer the indwelling Spirit to the Jews who believed prior to the cross and resurrection of Christ? Did the blood of bulls and goats offered by the priest take away sins once and for all as did the blood of Christ offered by the lamb of God on the cross? Were the people of Israel prior to the cross completely justified from sin by the offerings made? Were the Jews built together as a habitation of God through the Spirit prior to the cross that was given to all who believed in the cross? Were the bodies of the Jews prior to the cross considered to be a temple of God through that same Spirit and built together as lively stones?

Does the NT believer have the same citizenship and administration of affairs as did the people of Israel under the old testament and commonwealth? Were they ever made a new creation with a priesthood of a new and living way prior to the cross in the old commonwealth? Were they able as priests prior to the cross to approach the holy of holies beyond the veil that was consecrated for NT believers through the blood of Jesus and with a purged conscience because there had been a remission of sins and no more offering had to be made? Did these same Jews under their old commonwealth have the administration of a water baptism that signified this new and living way where the cross of Christ had crucified the old man and the one new man was brought in through the resurrection of Christ?

All this was offered to Israel through and after the cross but not before the appointed time (Gal 4:4)!

Zone, you need to stop lumping me and others into the same mold that you have created with your 'dipsie' thoughts and imaginations. You need to take a deep dive into repentance for all this garbage that you have perpetrated on so many people. You are way off base and have been for quite some time and it has put a bitter root in you.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

o.k., the Promised Seed is Secondary for israel..i get it.

which ones do you want to discuss?
are they all in the future?
were they all unconditional?

what promises remain for the Church (those in Christ)?

yes i know.
we have His genealogies.

i posted it already.

Hosea 11:1
1When Israel was a youth I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son. 2The more they called them, The more they went from them; They kept sacrificing to the Baals And burning incense to idols.

Matthew 2:15
where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

The 'promised seed' is not secondary - never said that - never meant that WOW. I just meant there are other promises - some that have been fulfilled - some not. Really don't want to discuss any - been there, done that - just a rehash.

I just don't see it - those two verses call Jesus Israel? . . . . okay

 

[peacefulbeliever]

can we post the whole passage please? (are you reading from footnotes or a website)?
why are you cherry-picking?

You have the passage below from which I quoted:

Roman9
God’s Sovereign Choice
1I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,a my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

WHY WOULD HE SAY THAT IF ALL ISRAEL WAS GOING TO BE SAVED?

Did I say ALL ISRAEL WAS GOING TO BE SAVED? Not that I know of - I believe I have repeatedly stated that ANYONE - Jew or Gentile who believes in Jesus Christ becomes part of the body of Christ the church. I sometimes like to set up scripture in outline form -
A (1-3) Paul's sorrow concerning Israel; his kinsmen according to the flesh - He was from the tribe of Benjamin (Phil. 3:5)
B (4) What belongs to Israel
C (5) Who belongs to Israel - Christ's kinship to Israel

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

(WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ESAU HERE - WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ISRAEL - RIGHT?)

Yes, we are speaking of Israel (Jacob).
A. God's word has NOT failed.
B. they are not all Israel, which are of Israel - We are still speaking of Israel (Jacob) - Jacob's progeny accounted as the seed of Abraham, the seed of Isaac, (remember Ishmael was born of the bondwoman - Isaac of the free woman by "promise" Gal. 4:23). So those Jacob had with his wives' handmaidens would be the children of the flesh but the children of the promise are counted as offspring - the children Leah and Rachel had. . . .

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israelc be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Israel’s Unbelief
30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousnessd did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”


SEE? THERE'S A CONDITION PEACEFUL.
whoever believes in him

I'll say it again just as I have been saying WHOEVER believes in Jesus Christ becomes part of the body, the Church.

WHAT DID PETER SAY ABOUT BEING THEM BEING - "the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed."?

Acts 3
11While he clung to Peter and John, all the people, utterly astounded, ran together to them in the portico called Solomon’s. 12And when Peter saw it he addressed the people: “Men of Israel, why do you wonder at this, or why do you stare at us, as though by our own power or piety we have made him walk? 13The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servantb Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. 14But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. 16And his name—by faith in his name—has made this man strong whom you see and know, and the faith that is through Jesusc has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all.

17“And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. 19Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. 22Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days. 25You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ 26God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”

DID THEY ALL REPENT AND BELIEVE?
NO.

I agree.

did many? YES

.
I agree.

what was the condition of ANY PROMISE they had remaining?

Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out

does anyone receive eternal life without this?
are there ANY Promises for anyone without this?
only condemnation, peaceful.

i did not write it.

here - again - speaking IN ISRAEL:

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

well, do you believe you are saved now?
are you in danger of hell?

here's John - Apostle to the Jews:

John 5:24
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

so why are the promises you look for (eternity with God) different from what you want for Israel?

what ultimately do you want for Israel?
anything LESS than what you are promised?

this has been addressed so many times. YES IT HAS BEEN FULFILLED.
Please read Joshua - all of it.

then again under David (and Solomon who doesn't really count as his line was not line Christ came through).
Jesus came through DAVID through Nathan through Heli to Mary.

the son of DAVID. are you expecting DAVID to reign from Jerusalem?

He is on the throne God promised David:

Acts 2
29“Dear brothers, think about this! You can be sure that the patriarch David wasn’t referring to himself, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us. 30But he was a prophet, and he knew God had promised with an oath that one of David’s own descendants would sit on his throne. 31David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead or allow his body to rot in the grave.

SEE THAT?
THAT'S WHAT DAVID PROPHESIED.
PETER CONFIRMED IT.
i'm not posting this again.

32“God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this. 33Now he is exalted to the place of highest honor in heaven, at God’s right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today. 34For David himself never ascended into heaven, yet he said,

‘The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
35until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet.”’

36“So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!”

SO..................................WHAT?
THE WHOLE OF ISRAEL
ISN'T BEING SAVED PEACEFUL.

the Church is THEIR PROMISE...we are grafted IN.

lol...okay...i'm sorry.
it's not you, it's this dispensational wrongly divided nightmare.
i love you.
yes, i'm a brick wall too.

I am glad you are not posting this again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

will we see that in the new Heavens and earth New Jerusalem - as a SIGN that He won't flood the earth again???
really?
yes....we have rainbows in the world today.
there's a curse on the earth today.
He said he destroyed it ONCE by water, and the next time BY FIRE.

so everlasting? until it's destroyed by fire?
whatever.

Will we see a rainbow in the new Heavens and new Earth - the New Jerusalem - I see no reason for it then - but hey, I cannot say for a certainty because scripture doesn't address it. . . .

Love ya zone. . . .

 

[Elin]

The one God gave Abram in Genesis 17:8 in connection with the Land? And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; . . . We haven't seen this yet - Israel hasn't received their inheritance for an everlasting possession as yet

Its fulfillment is presented in Heb 11:8-16.

 

[2Thewaters]

We are Jews ! We are spiritual descendants of Abraham. Check Galatians chapter 3. I reject dispensationalism.

Well, either you are Jews by faith or you are not
Salvation is of the Jews
By the adoption of Jesus blood and our adoption into the father

So I put down JEW on all my applications now.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Its fulfillment is presented in Heb 11:8-16.

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (v13)

 

[BradC]

When Jesus came the first time, the Jews, by in large, rejected him and a remnant believed, which Paul identified with. That is simply to understand. The Jews were dispersed when the temple was destroyed and have been up to the present time for the most part. Many have gathered under certain banners from around the world and have taken up residency in Israel, which they consider to be their homeland, while others are still dispersed and probably are content to be so. I don't think we have a problem with that. The gospel of Christ and him crucified is the gospel being preached today and the only means whereby men can be saved and forgiven of sin, including the Jew. No problem with that, I hope.

We have the second coming of Christ yet to come and we have a remainder of Israel and its people who live in unbelief and still reject Christ and his first coming. So they are still looking for the Messiah (the Christ) even though they rejected him the first time he came. We can agree on that hopefully. We know that Christ is coming again but when he does he will not come as he did the fist time, born in a manger in Bethlehem and grow up among his people. He is coming back to kick some butt big time and when he does the scriptures says that every eye shall see him, including those who pierced him (Rev 1:7). Here is my question at this point. Rev 1:6 is referring to the second coming because he comes in the clouds and not born in a manger. Who are the ones referred to in verse 7 who will see him (lay their eyes upon him) as the ones who pierced him (or responsible for having him pierced)? I think that it is more than safe to say that the church and body of Christ who have been redeemed by his blood, were not responsible for having pierced the Lord Jesus Christ.

At Christ's first coming were the Jews, who were present and witnessed the crucifixion personally and saw him being pierced, the ones who are mentioned in verse 7 who saw him? If anyone has indisputable proof of this and can explain it, please step up and show it. If no proof can be shown then those who see him whom they pierced when he comes for the second time unto salvation (Heb 9:28) must be the Jews who are alive and present on the earth along with every single person living at that time. Is everyone okay with this so far or does anyone out there think I am trying to privately interpret this passage? Here is what Heb 9:26-28 says.

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many ; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The second time that he appears must refer to the second coming and that coming has to do with salvation that is without sin. Jesus dealt with sin the first time he came so what is the salvation that he brings the second time that he comes? Will it be the cross that he brings to deal with sin again? Will it be deliverance for the church? Will it be the resurrection of the dead? Who is Christ bringing salvation to when his wrath has been poured out and he shows up out of heaven on a white horse with armies following him dressed in fine linen that is white and clean, which is the righteousness of the saints in (Rev 19:8,13,19)? What is this salvation and who is it being brought to? Read Isaiah 49 and see what the Spirit of God ministers to your heart.

 

[Elin]

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (v13)

One verse down and eight to go in Heb 11:8-16..

Study them carefully.

 

[konroh]

Here's the question. If Jesus is on David's throne (clearly He is on the right hand of God the Father in heaven, but is this David's throne?) then all the promises to David are fulfilled now, there will be no future physical kingdom. Now personally I don't think this is so because it seems to change the meaning of what God promised to David. However, there's no doubt there's a wonderful spiritual kingdom now. Does it make this kingdom inferior to say that there will be a future physical kingdom? This is I think the heart of the problem. Those who want to argue for David's kingdom now want to point out all the blessings that occur now, all the ways that the spiritual is better than the physical. There is truth to this.

Those who want to argue for a future physical kingdom are not doing so because the physical is better than the spiritual. The spiritual will still be at the forefront, it will just be physical and spiritual together, the way it always should be. It is very true that heaven is pictured much like the garden of Eden was pictured. I believe the promises God gave throughout the Bible is to redeem mankind to get them back to a chosen state of spiritual and physical blessing on the earth, the way He always intended. But also He intends to make a new heaven and earth, completing the process.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

One verse down and eight to go in Heb 11:8-16..

Study them carefully.

I did read them all - doesn't change the fact that they all died in faith NOT having received the promises.

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

So, if I say - Yes, all the promises were fulfilled - and scripture to say they did not receive the promises . . . . I have set up a contradiction.

 

[SarahM777]

I did read them all - doesn't change the fact that they all died in faith NOT having received the promises.

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

So, if I say - Yes, all the promises were fulfilled - and scripture to say they did not receive the promises . . . . I have set up a contradiction.

And what is the rest of those verses? What is it they were looking FOR?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

And what is the rest of those verses? What is it they were looking FOR?

. . . 13b but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he that prepared for them a city.

Does that refer to Rev. 21? And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven. . . .

they sought a country to call their own - but not receiving the promises while alive and on earth - they now have a city to look forward to that God has prepared for them . . . . not here, not yet

So. . . .what I said below is true. . . .

The one God gave Abram in Genesis 17:8 in connection with the Land? And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; . . . We haven't seen this yet - Israel hasn't received their inheritance for an everlasting possession as yet

 

[SarahM777]

. . . 13b but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he that prepared for them a city.

Does that refer to Rev. 21? And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven. . . .

they sought a country to call their own - but not receiving the promises while alive and on earth - they now have a city to look forward to that God has prepared for them . . . . not here, not yet

So. . . .what I said below is true. . . .

The one God gave Abram in Genesis 17:8 in connection with the Land? And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; . . . We haven't seen this yet - Israel hasn't received their inheritance for an everlasting possession as yet

But you have a conundrum,a temporary land IS NOT EVERLASTING or ETERNAL. Even the Old testament says that this earth WILL be destroyed. They understood that. They understood what the promise is POINTING to. The everlasting promise is the HEAVENLY city,the heavenly land,not that tract of land in the Middle East. What has been done is that the promise has been cheapened up to a temporal land,not the eternal.