The Rapture: And Other Silly Things Christians Get Consumed With

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Jan 19, 2013
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Who thinks 1 Cor 15:51-53 is linked to 1 Thes 4:13-17 thereby describing the same event?
Just curious.
Both are about the resurrection of mankind at the end of time.

One treats of the change from the natural to the spiritual physical body at the resurrection,

while the other treats of the rapture of the saints at the resurrection.

Why would anyone not think both were treating the resurrection of mankind at the end of time?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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As is the case so often in the New Testament, the quote is a partial quote and seems to only have a partial fulfillment. The Acts believers partially quote the Psalm, showing how Jesus is indeed a cause for rage among the nations, but they don't quote the part where the ends of the earth have been dashed to pieces like broken pottery. Do we really spiritualize all this, or is there a spiritual meaning and also a very real physical meaning? Am I really doing damage to the text to let the text speak for itself, and believe that while there is a partial spiritual fulfillment, there is still room for a full physical and spiritual fulfillment?
just as real as real can be:)
just as literal as literal can be.
eternal.


Psalm 2
5Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying, 6"But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain." 7"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You

Psalm 3:4
I call out to the LORD, and he answers me from his holy mountain.

Psalm 24:3
Who may ascend the mountain of the LORD? Who may stand in his holy place?

Psalm 45
5Your arrows are sharp; The peoples fall under You; Your arrows are in the heart of the King's enemies. 6Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows.

Hebrews 1:8
But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Psalm 110:2
The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of your enemies!"

Daniel 7
12"As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time. 13"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Philippians 2:9
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name

Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Both are about the resurrection of mankind at the end of time.

One treats of the change from the natural to the spiritual physical body at the resurrection,

while the other treats of the rapture of the saints at the resurrection.

Why would anyone not think both were treating the resurrection of mankind at the end of time?
Those preaching the Pre-Trib Rapture nonsense feel both deal with Christ's return prior to the Tribulation.

I see them as two distinct events. Christ returns for Armageddon AFTER the Tribulation of those days. He resurrects, "Those that are His at His coming." But I don't see the living being transformed until AFTER the millennium as, "It is appointed once for man to die then follows the judgment." "Flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" therefore if you are still living in your mortal body, you can't get into heaven. Heaven is at the end.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Those preaching the Pre-Trib Rapture nonsense feel both deal with Christ's return prior to the Tribulation.

I see them as two distinct events. Christ returns for Armageddon AFTER the Tribulation of those days. He resurrects, "Those that are His at His coming." But I don't see the living being transformed until AFTER the millennium as, "It is appointed once for man to die then follows the judgment."
"Flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God"
You misunderstand Paul's meaning of "flesh" to mean bodily tissue.

His meaning is the same as in "natural body;" i.e., sinful, weak corruptible physical body,

as opposed to the "spiritual body;" i.e., sinless, glorious, incorruptible physical body.

He says that "the corruptible (sinful, weak flesh) cannot inherit the incorruptible (kingdom of God).

There must be a change at the resurrection from the corruptible natural physical body to the incorruptible spiritual physical body.

It's not about bodily tissue, it's about sinful fallen nature.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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You misunderstand Paul's meaning of "flesh" to mean bodily tissue.

His meaning is the same as in "natural body;" i.e., sinful, weak corruptible physical body,

as opposed to the "spiritual body;" i.e., sinless, glorious, incorruptible physical body.

He says that "the corruptible (sinful, weak flesh) cannot inherit the incorruptible (kingdom of God).

There must be a change at the resurrection from the corruptible natural physical body to the incorruptible spiritual physical body.

It's not about bodily tissue, it's about sinful fallen nature.
It's the same thing!!! You are sinful when in flesh bodies. You are no longer sinful when in incorruptible spiritual bodies. I don't understand your distinction. The events are still 1,000 years apart.
 

konroh

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2013
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Let's deal with examples then. We both agree that "cows of Bashan" is a metaphor, I think one can take it naturally as a putdown for fat, lazy women. This is the correspondence of words to meaning, I think we both agree on this, though there seems to be problems with me referring to this as a literal way to take it as opposed to a mystical way. Amos was not being mystical, he was being poetic.I could list many hermeneutic books which try to reconcile the quandary we are in. You tell me I'm reading the wrong hermeneutics books, but you don't give me any examples of good ones I should read, the fact is most books on hermeneutics are not written by allegorists, because they have an inconsistent pattern of interpretation. Please show me any good hermeneutic book that espouses the allegorical view of interpretation. Don't just disregard my view as making no sense.

Why not the understanding of the meaning "1000 years"? There are at least three ways to take this, a literal 1000 years, a figure of speech, or an allegorical interpretation. Given the nature of the way God speaks to man, we should seek out the most natural way of understanding this. God does not purposely try to be obscure. Jesus spoke in parables but He gave the plain meaning to His disciples.

To take 1000 years as a figure of speech meaning a long time would be fine, if we could find any other example of this in Scripture. There are no other examples where Scripture says, 1000 years, and it really just means a long time. There's a verse that says "Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His
covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who ..." but it's easily a recognized figure of speech. This could mean 4000 years, or more, it really means God keeps His promises. So while it's possible to take this as a figure of speech, there doesn't seem to be warrant for it from the book of Revelation, unless one says that every reference to time in Revelation is non-literal.

Finally, the term 1000 years can be taken allegorically, to somehow express a higher meaning that we can't fullly understand. There were many in the year 999 AD who were really worried that the end of the earth was coming. They understood this 1000 years as a literal time period they were living in now. When Christ didn't come, the understanding of 1000 years had to be further allegorized. The amillenialist today has to deny the literal meaning of 1000 years, and also has to deny the literal meaning of "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection." This can't be a real resurrection like every other reference to resurrection is in Scripture, it must only be a spiritual resurrection.

This is the difference between literal hermeneutics and allegorical hermeneutics.

As Job says, "Bear with me that I may speak; Then after I have spoken, you may mock."
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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It's the same thing!!! You are sinful when in flesh bodies. You are no longer sinful when in incorruptible spiritual bodies. I don't understand your distinction. The events are still 1,000 years apart.
nope........
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I was just watching this Rapture show on Netflix. These young children were lamenting that they won't have the chance to get married and have children because they are going to be raptured any minute now. That's a real shame, a crime really, to plant such an awful lie into the minds and hearts of young people with this horrible rapture lie. What happens to their faith when the Real Trib starts and they are still here?

There is no pre-Trib Rapture and shame on any Christian teaching such utter and complete nonsense. The timing is given plainly right here:

1 Thes 4:13 through 1 Thes 5:2:

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.

2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

There it is in black and white (or in this case bold Red). It is the Day of the Lord which is AKA, The Second Coming. I love how Pre-Tribbers always cut this passage off two verses too soon and claim it speaks of an earlier Pre-Trib Rapture instead of reading long enough to get the context.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Let's deal with examples then. We both agree that "cows of Bashan" is a metaphor, I think one can take it naturally as a putdown for fat, lazy women. This is the correspondence of words to meaning, I think we both agree on this, though there seems to be problems with me referring to this as a literal way to take it as opposed to a mystical way. Amos was not being mystical, he was being poetic.I could list many hermeneutic books which try to reconcile the quandary we are in. You tell me I'm reading the wrong hermeneutics books, but you don't give me any examples of good ones I should read, the fact is most books on hermeneutics are not written by allegorists, because they have an inconsistent pattern of interpretation. Please show me any good hermeneutic book that espouses the allegorical view of interpretation. Don't just disregard my view as making no sense.

Why not the understanding of the meaning "1000 years"? There are at least three ways to take this, a literal 1000 years, a figure of speech, or an allegorical interpretation. Given the nature of the way God speaks to man, we should seek out the most natural way of understanding this. God does not purposely try to be obscure. Jesus spoke in parables but He gave the plain meaning to His disciples.

To take 1000 years as a figure of speech meaning a long time would be fine, if we could find any other example of this in Scripture. There are no other examples where Scripture says, 1000 years, and it really just means a long time. There's a verse that says "Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His
covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who ..." but it's easily a recognized figure of speech. This could mean 4000 years, or more, it really means God keeps His promises. So while it's possible to take this as a figure of speech, there doesn't seem to be warrant for it from the book of Revelation, unless one says that every reference to time in Revelation is non-literal.

Finally, the term 1000 years can be taken allegorically, to somehow express a higher meaning that we can't fullly understand. There were many in the year 999 AD who were really worried that the end of the earth was coming. They understood this 1000 years as a literal time period they were living in now. When Christ didn't come, the understanding of 1000 years had to be further allegorized. The amillenialist today has to deny the literal meaning of 1000 years, and also has to deny the literal meaning of "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection." This can't be a real resurrection like every other reference to resurrection is in Scripture, it must only be a spiritual resurrection.

This is the difference between literal hermeneutics and allegorical hermeneutics.

As Job says, "Bear with me that I may speak; Then after I have spoken, you may mock."
your precedent for the same figure of speech is right here:

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

if after reading the chapter you are forced to consider that the Millennium may only be 24 hours long; or an Hebrew day (12 hours), lemme know:)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Flesh bodies = corruptible = sinful = Death = Earth
Spiritual bodies = incorruptible = sin-free = Eternal Life = Kingdom of God (Heaven)

What am I missing?
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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It's the same thing!!! You are sinful when in flesh bodies. You are no longer sinful when in incorruptible spiritual bodies. I don't understand your distinction. The events are still 1,000 years apart.
Apart from uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles, there are not two resurrections of mankind in the NT.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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Flesh bodies = corruptible = sinful = Death = Earth
Spiritual bodies = incorruptible = sin-free = Eternal Life = Kingdom of God (Heaven)

What am I missing?
No certain unequivocal NT teaching of two resurrections.
 
Oct 14, 2013
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[h=3]Acts 24:15[/h]King James Version (KJV)

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Acts 24:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that
there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust
.
The same single resurrection:

Eze 34:17 (1Co 3:12-15; Mt 25:31-33)

Da 12:2

Jn 5:28-29
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Does not the bible teach in NT that there will be two resurrection ?
Nope. . .there is no certain unequivocal NT teaching of two resurrections.

It's all based in uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles, which can be, and are, interpreted by others to mean something entirely different.