What's so bad about calvinism?

[1Covenant]

God's will is none to perish. But many do perish. Therefore God is not completely sovereign in the sense of being directly involved in the affairs of humankind by over-riding man's free will.

So please continue on that thought...when God acts in his "sovereignty" to kill someone in the NT and the OT, removing all chance of man's will to choose repentance where does that fit?

 

[watchmen]

So please continue on that thought...when God acts in his "sovereignty" to kill someone in the NT and the OT, removing all chance of man's will to choose repentance where does that fit?

God can do whatever He wants, that does not change the fact that scripture teaches us two truths.
#1 God wills for all to be saved.
#2 All will not be saved.
There is nothing a calvinist can claim or say that changes these two truths of scripture.

 

[1Covenant]

God can do whatever He wants, that does not change the fact that scripture teaches us two truths.
#1 God wills for all to be saved.
#2 All will not be saved.
There is nothing a calvinist can claim or say that changes these two truths of scripture.

Awesome!
That is exactly the point. You say both are true. Some create a theology to try and explain it, but when you boil it down to scripture you just have to say that they are both true and only God can hold the two together.

Likewise, I say that both are true that the elect is predestined and man chooses. Both are clear in scripture and only God can hold the two together.

 

[watchmen]

Awesome!
That is exactly the point. You say both are true. Some create a theology to try and explain it, but when you boil it down to scripture you just have to say that they are both true and only God can hold the two together.

Likewise, I say that both are true that the elect is predestined and man chooses. Both are clear in scripture and only God can hold the two together.

:thumbsup:.

 

[DinoDillinger]

We do not know what became of Jonah. Scripture tells us God wants all to be saved. Are you calling God a liar?

Jonah caved in to God's will. I believe that is written to the church.

Also written to the church, "He did not appoint you to wrath".

To non believers, "You will not come to Me, that you may have life".
Those are paraphrased.
1cor 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

limited Sovereignty? There is no such thing. If something is limited then it can't be Sovereign.

If any of us has anything to boast of, let him make it known.

Man hates God. It is the calling of God to repentance and faith in Christ that He reveals to us His love.

He who has an ear, let him hear.

The offer is made to all, but the deaf can't hear it. Is there a certain goodness in those who come to faith, that they accept the gift while others reject it? If so, then surely you have something to boast of!!!!

 

[Leilaii425]

Everyone should go back to calva..... what is it again??? calvmaiananiisssmmmmiiiissssmmmm

 

[MahogonySnail]

chauvanism

 

[Leilaii425]

chauvanism

ohh yes thank you.. thats what i believe everyone should return to

 

[DinoDillinger]

chauvanism

hmm, is it chauvinist to believe God is souley responsible for your salvation or that only those that 'choose' to accept Christ are saved?

 

[MahogonySnail]

tis chauvanist to believe God predestines some to hell and others to heaven. It is also chauvanist to follow John Calvin's teachings blindly.

 

[Definition_Christ]

So if you have faith you have the ability to be saved? Is that right?.. The unsaved or the non-Elect (whom we don't know) are unable to place faith in God because they are unable to obtain faith. Is that correct?

What if they hear the Word of God?

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God...

I mean isn't everyone elect and non-elect able to HEAR the Word of God? That is how faith comes.. That is exactly what the Scriptures say. I mean we can't add on...
"Faith comes to those who are the ones God has chosen to have faith"


Proverbs 30:6 Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Are you saying the non-elect are not sinners? Of course they are sinners, so why would God go against His word to fit your doctrines and not save them if they place their faith into Him?... How do they obtain faith? By hearing and hearing of the Word of God. How do they "get" saved?

Acts 16
30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Interesting how they didn't respond "There is absolutely nothing you can do to be saved, it is totally up to God, if He *wants* to save you or not. All's you can do is simply pray you are the elect, sorry that's all I got for you.

NO!!!!! Of course they didn't say that, nobody should! Everyone is able to obtain faith by hearing the Word of God, that is Scripture and Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35). Once they obtain faith and place it into Jesus Christ as their Savior then they will pass from death into life. That very moment.

John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Hmmm, what does hearing Jesus' word do?

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

AND believes in Him, the choice that THEY make. They then pass from death into life.
Yes... They choose.
Joshua 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Joshua says CHOOSE FOR YOURSELVES.

 

[Definition_Christ]

hmm, is it chauvinist to believe God is souley responsible for your salvation or that only those that 'choose' to accept Christ are saved?

Joshua 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[1Covenant]

I'm sorry for the length...
I feel that I have already explained from the big picture of calvinism that I believe that the scriptures show that God uses temporal means to accomplish eternal decrees or promises. We are after all in TIME and He is in Eternity.

Limited Sovereignty and Predestination are doctrines for those people who like you and I should believe that both testimonies of God are true but like you and I are uncomfortable doing damage to one side or the other. Some are more comfortable limiting God and others are more comfortable limiting man in order to balance the two truths. The important part is to hold the doctrine loosely confessing first and foremost that the two principles of God's Word are true and that our doctrines are man's attempt to make sense of it.

I choose to believe that both are true and that as we are shown an aspect of God's eternal decree, we are to consider it a blessing and a joy to those of us that will cling to the promise, and that we are also shown that we must persevere (or choose) as a temporal outworking or means of our salvation.

Furthermore to put it a different way, I believe that based on scriptural language that the revelation of the purposes of God in time unfolds in our understanding from the future to present to past, not the other way around. He has decreed the objective, and progressively in time through temporal means reveals that objective (a basic premise of predestination and perseverance).
Just to give you a personal example of this. If you say to yourself, "tomorrow, I will go on a picnic." Then what you do in planning and in action, in the present, is informed and directed by a decision of the future to bring it pass. And as your actions are unfolded they reveal their purpose and now the past is a testimony to that end, testifying of your objective.
The future is always driving our present and I believe the same is revealed in the scripture. Though it is never stated in the OT, it is made clear by Jesus that the law and prophets were all about Jesus (future driving the present becoming a passing testimony as also laid out in Hebrews).
If the people of God will cling to this real secured future and live(persevere) with their heart set on this promise as real, it will show in their past walk in life. This is what the faithful are being called to live in and some will not continue with them. So it is said, they went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
So To briefly address your thoughts...In time, some are shown not to have a fertile ground for faith or it is choked out, and their faith is shown to not be of a lasting nature (no perseverance). What does that tells us about the eternal aspect of what God has done with these people. We don't know for sure, but we do confess that Christ does not lose any of His and the work He begins he is faithful to complete.

Ok...bottom line is that I more comfortable with predestination because I believe that God's Word is always speaking on two levels
There are eternal decrees and their are temporal means that work those out.
There are eternal realities and there are physical realities that reflect that.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Exactly why I believe in Molinism. Here is a quote to explain what that is.

The Molinism system has theological implications for a variety of doctrines. Under it, God retains a measure of divine providence without hindering man's freedom (in the libertarian sense). Because God has middle knowledge, He knows what an agent will freely do in a particular situation. So, agent A, when placed in circumstance C, will freely choose option X over option Y. Thus, if God wanted to accomplish X, all God would do is, using his middle knowledge, actualize the world in which A was placed in C, and A would freely choose X. God retains an element of providence without nullifying A's choice and God's purpose (the actualization of X) is fulfilled.


Molinists also believe it can aid one's understanding of salvation. Ever since Augustine and Pelagius there has been debate over the issue of salvation; more specifically how can God elect believers and believers still come to God freely? Protestants who lean more towards God's election and sovereignty are usually Calvinists while those who lean more towards man's free choice follow Arminianism.[4] However, the Molinist can embrace both God's sovereignty and man's free choice.[5]


Take the salvation of Agent A. God knows that if He were to place A in circumstances C, then A will freely choose to believe in Christ. So God actualizes the world where C occurs, and then A freely believes. God still retains a measure of His divine providence because He actualizes the world in which A freely chooses. But, A still retains his libertarian freedom. It is important to note that Molinism does not affirm two contradictory propositions when it affirms both God's providence and man's freedom. God's providence extends to the actualization of the world in which an agent may believe upon Christ. Molinism splits from Calvinism by affirming that God is not the primary cause of salvation, but also splits from Arminianism because it has a higher view of the role of God's sovereignty in salvation.[6]


Molinism has also been used to describe the biblical canon being formed under God, while still being chosen by humans in the history of the church. If God could survey the various possible worlds and see in which one the correct canon was chosen, then God would be able to actualize that particular world in which the correct canon is preserved. In this way God can provide the modern church with the correct set of books.

 

[Definition_Christ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

I forgot to post where I got that quote from ^^ there it is.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Joshua 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Greetings,

That's covenant based, Israel had a different Covenant to Christians, the new Covenant is in Hebrews 8:8-12 and prophecised by Jeremiah 31:31-37. The first covenant was conditional as Israel agreed to 'do all these things' - God had presented them with a list of conditions, the covenant was conditional, and actually the covenant was broken, so God deemed the first covenant null and void, however the second covenant that God enacted whith Judah and Israel and was unconditional, the blood of Christ being deemed sufficient to cover all sin for eternity, and it was given by Grace first to the tribe of Judah than to Israel (Sometimes referred to as the "Gentiles" GENS, ethnos) as Jesus once saving the remnant of Judah they did shine their light on the scattered tribes abroad of Israel, as Jesus said "I come only for the lost sheep of Israel", so that was done as prophecised. This new covenant based solely on the divine blood of Christ and the sovereign will of a holy and merciful God was offered once and for all as a free gift to be written by the holy spirit into the hearts and minds of those he had already pre-ordained and pre-determined from the foundation of the world. This covenant had also been extended to as we well know all Abraham's decendants (those considered his 'children') and all of Ebers descendants but also to all men, and by this He means anybody that He considers to be His, He will have mercy upon and He shall consider them a man saved by His blood, because life is in the blood and all blood comes from God. But it is always important to remember that some are not from Him, there are some that are the children of the Devil.

 

[1Covenant]

Exactly why I believe in Molinism. Here is a quote to explain what that is.

So you should start a thread called "What so bad about Molinism." Just Kidding!
That is fairly close to what my parents believe, but there is still hope for them.

 

[AnRev]

All men will be given a chance. The problem I see here is the failure of past believers to teach the correct string of events. We are not headed to an end of all things when Jesus returns. There's a lot more to go. Those who do not make it now will be given another chance after the millennium. Then the ones who fail then will be given a chance on the Day of Judgment. By the time all is said and done, the only ones recorded in the bible that will not be saved are the ones who receive the mark of the beast. But we don't know the population of earth when that happens.

According to my calculations of possibilities, as much as 87.5% should be saved. But then, Jesus did say the kingdom of heaven islike ten virgins, five who were ready and five who were not. Not everyone who says "lord lord" will be saved.

Ever wonder why Jesus was tempted three times? It is because he will offer salvation to mankind three times. Now, after the millennium, and on the Day of Judgment.

 

[DinoDillinger]

Exactly why I believe in Molinism. Here is a quote to explain what that is.

" Molinism splits from Calvinism by affirming that God is not the primary cause of salvation, but also splits from Arminianism because it has a higher view of the role of God's sovereignty in salvation.[6]"
I think that is blasphemy,God is the author of salvation, how can anyone believe otherwise?

Jesus Christ says, he who has an ear, let him hear.

Do people choose to have an ear, or is God the one who gave them an ear?

Those called are bought from their master, sin, does God let them go now to do as they choose? If you are free, why do you call Jesus Lord? A man who has a master is not free, we are freed from our old master of sin, bought by the Almighty God with the blood of His only begotten Son! Those who are His are slaves to our Lord Jesus Christ! We eagerly await the adoption as sons.

People don't think it is fair to not have a choice in their salvation? We all have sinned, transgressed the law of a most Holy God. Does a murderer get to decide if he recieves a pardon? God says, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy.
They say, I didn't murder anyone, I didn't do anything that bad... You show that you don't understand the Holiness of God.

Look at Numbers 20:12 if you want to see what God thinks of taking credit for His works.

"Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Isreal, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them."

 

[Definition_Christ]

" Molinism splits from Calvinism by affirming that God is not the primary cause of salvation, but also splits from Arminianism because it has a higher view of the role of God's sovereignty in salvation.[6]"
I think that is blasphemy,God is the author of salvation, how can anyone believe otherwise?

Jesus Christ says, he who has an ear, let him hear.

Do people choose to have an ear, or is God the one who gave them an ear?

Those called are bought from their master, sin, does God let them go now to do as they choose? If you are free, why do you call Jesus Lord? A man who has a master is not free, we are freed from our old master of sin, bought by the Almighty God with the blood of His only begotten Son! Those who are His are slaves to our Lord Jesus Christ! We eagerly await the adoption as sons.

People don't think it is fair to not have a choice in their salvation? We all have sinned, transgressed the law of a most Holy God. Does a murderer get to decide if he recieves a pardon? God says, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy.
They say, I didn't murder anyone, I didn't do anything that bad... You show that you don't understand the Holiness of God.

Look at Numbers 20:12 if you want to see what God thinks of taking credit for His works.

"Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Isreal, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them."

Joshua 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.