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Isdaniel;
Sure look like on the earth to me
Revelation 12:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
...........................................................
where was the manchild caught up to
who was he.
when did it happen.
Sure look like on the earth to me
Revelation 12:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
...........................................................
where was the manchild caught up to
who was he.
when did it happen.
I wish I could find where I've answered your issues of allegorizing and spiritualizing. You are just cutting and pasting old posts and I answered this before.
I guess I would like to hear your explanation of what allegorizing and spiritualizing mean, because to me, to interpret something as an allegory means finding a hidden meaning that is not really there. This is different from a metaphor.
You use 1 Cor. 10 as an example. Paul says
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
Paul is not spiritualizing their experience. He's showing that the experience they did have was spiritual! This wilderness generation was identified with Moses in the miraculous cloud that protected and guided and the deliverance from the sea. They were drinking from a rock that had been struck representing Christ, they got real water from it, but Paul's point is that they were also getting spiritual sustenance from their experience. The faith that it took Moses to strike the rock and the faith that the Israelites had to have in relying on God for food and drink every day is the same faith that we must have in Christ. The fact that Paul talks about the Rock following them shows that he's making a spiritual point about the power of protection and provision that the Israelites' experiences was from Christ, even if they didn't fully realize this.
I think we disagree on what spiritualizing is. My definition of spiritualizing would be to make something that is referencing only the physical somehow reference the spiritual. Like taking the understanding of the words food and drink to mean spiritual food and drink. So Jesus often talks about spiritual sustenance in terms of physical sustenance, "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life." This is not spiritualizing, Jesus doesn't mean cannibals are saved. He means those who partake of His spiritual life have eternal life. He uses the physical realities to conceptualize the spiritual and actually make it more concrete, not less.
Paul too, in terms of the Israelites, does not actually only reference the physical food and drink that they were eating, but references the spiritual sustenance that the Isrealites were getting in having to have faith for God to provide the physical food that they were eating every day.
I hope I'm being clear here. I would say there is a legitimate way to spiritualize and an illegitimate way. The illegitimate way is to somehow get a spiritual meaning out of something that's purely physical. For instance, someone could say that because they got water from a rock being struck, any preacher who is trying to give you spiritual water must strike themselves while preaching to you. This would be illegitimately spiritualizing, and actually illegitimate allegorizing.
Legitimate spiritualizing is to recognize the spiritual meaning that is behind, within, or comes out of the physical. This is what Paul does here. He clearly makes a point not just about the physical food they ate or how they got it but the spiritual means of their getting it and receiving it. The Israelites grew spiritually on a daily basis because they had to rely physically on God for their food and drink. This is Paul's point.
He's not getting something allegorical out of the text which isn't already there, although He is increasing our understanding of the Israelites spiritual experience. The real point of what Paul says here is really Don't fail like the wilderness generation, who even though they had to rely on God spiritually on a daily basis, still failed. How much more should we learn our lesson.
I guess I would like to hear your explanation of what allegorizing and spiritualizing mean, because to me, to interpret something as an allegory means finding a hidden meaning that is not really there. This is different from a metaphor.
You use 1 Cor. 10 as an example. Paul says
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
Paul is not spiritualizing their experience. He's showing that the experience they did have was spiritual! This wilderness generation was identified with Moses in the miraculous cloud that protected and guided and the deliverance from the sea. They were drinking from a rock that had been struck representing Christ, they got real water from it, but Paul's point is that they were also getting spiritual sustenance from their experience. The faith that it took Moses to strike the rock and the faith that the Israelites had to have in relying on God for food and drink every day is the same faith that we must have in Christ. The fact that Paul talks about the Rock following them shows that he's making a spiritual point about the power of protection and provision that the Israelites' experiences was from Christ, even if they didn't fully realize this.
I think we disagree on what spiritualizing is. My definition of spiritualizing would be to make something that is referencing only the physical somehow reference the spiritual. Like taking the understanding of the words food and drink to mean spiritual food and drink. So Jesus often talks about spiritual sustenance in terms of physical sustenance, "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life." This is not spiritualizing, Jesus doesn't mean cannibals are saved. He means those who partake of His spiritual life have eternal life. He uses the physical realities to conceptualize the spiritual and actually make it more concrete, not less.
Paul too, in terms of the Israelites, does not actually only reference the physical food and drink that they were eating, but references the spiritual sustenance that the Isrealites were getting in having to have faith for God to provide the physical food that they were eating every day.
I hope I'm being clear here. I would say there is a legitimate way to spiritualize and an illegitimate way. The illegitimate way is to somehow get a spiritual meaning out of something that's purely physical. For instance, someone could say that because they got water from a rock being struck, any preacher who is trying to give you spiritual water must strike themselves while preaching to you. This would be illegitimately spiritualizing, and actually illegitimate allegorizing.
Legitimate spiritualizing is to recognize the spiritual meaning that is behind, within, or comes out of the physical. This is what Paul does here. He clearly makes a point not just about the physical food they ate or how they got it but the spiritual means of their getting it and receiving it. The Israelites grew spiritually on a daily basis because they had to rely physically on God for their food and drink. This is Paul's point.
He's not getting something allegorical out of the text which isn't already there, although He is increasing our understanding of the Israelites spiritual experience. The real point of what Paul says here is really Don't fail like the wilderness generation, who even though they had to rely on God spiritually on a daily basis, still failed. How much more should we learn our lesson.
The First Resurrection | Meredith G. Kline Resource Site
Great effort is made to juxtapose the idea of first resurrection with second death. This article tries to show that first resurrection means believers reigning in heaven (even though Rev. 20 says it's reigning on earth). Another amillenial interpretation is to say that the first resurrection is to be baptized into Christ.
In debates between premillenial and amillenial scholars on youtube, the amillenial scholar has admitted that to interpret resurrection from Rev. 20 as anything but bodily resurrection is the weak link in amillenial theory. Sorry I haven't scrounged up the youtube video. But even a cursory understanding of amillenial theory shows this. There is no other place where resurrection means "soul resurrection" or a spiritualized resurrection in the Bible.
This quote strikes me as hilarious: Three Views of the Millennium | Grace Communion International
Amillenialists often say Rev. is hard to interpret and figurative, yet admittedly if we just try to understand Rev. itself, this amillenialist admits that a literal interpretation would lead one to a premillenial position. Why not let the book speak for itself?
But I firmly agree with this from the same site:
On this matter, we can state a view that almost all Christians can agree on. The millennium is not a defining doctrine of who is a true Christian and who is not. We do not want to divide Christians by their interpretive choices on this matter. We recognize that equally sincere, equally educated and equally faithful Christians can come to different conclusions on this doctrine. Some members of our denomination are premillennial, some are amillennial, and some are postmillennial. But we have much to agree on:
Great effort is made to juxtapose the idea of first resurrection with second death. This article tries to show that first resurrection means believers reigning in heaven (even though Rev. 20 says it's reigning on earth). Another amillenial interpretation is to say that the first resurrection is to be baptized into Christ.
In debates between premillenial and amillenial scholars on youtube, the amillenial scholar has admitted that to interpret resurrection from Rev. 20 as anything but bodily resurrection is the weak link in amillenial theory. Sorry I haven't scrounged up the youtube video. But even a cursory understanding of amillenial theory shows this. There is no other place where resurrection means "soul resurrection" or a spiritualized resurrection in the Bible.
This quote strikes me as hilarious: Three Views of the Millennium | Grace Communion International
Amillenialists often say Rev. is hard to interpret and figurative, yet admittedly if we just try to understand Rev. itself, this amillenialist admits that a literal interpretation would lead one to a premillenial position. Why not let the book speak for itself?
But I firmly agree with this from the same site:
On this matter, we can state a view that almost all Christians can agree on. The millennium is not a defining doctrine of who is a true Christian and who is not. We do not want to divide Christians by their interpretive choices on this matter. We recognize that equally sincere, equally educated and equally faithful Christians can come to different conclusions on this doctrine. Some members of our denomination are premillennial, some are amillennial, and some are postmillennial. But we have much to agree on:
- God has all power and will do all that he purposes and will fulfill all his prophecies.
- Jesus Christ has all power and authority, and he has brought us into his kingdom even in this age.
- Christ has given us life when we were dead in trespasses and sins, we go to be with him when we die, and we will be resurrected.
- Jesus has defeated Satan and Satan still exercises some influence in this world.
- Satan’s influence will be completely and permanently stopped in the future.
- All humans will be resurrected and judged by our merciful and loving and righteous God.
- Christ will return, and will triumph over all enemies, and will lead us all into an eternity with God.
- There will be a new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells, and this wonderful world tomorrow will last forever.
- Eternity will be better than the millennium (no matter how we define the millennium).
Figures of Speech
Robert I Bradshaw
"Figures of Speech" by Robert I Bradshaw
Fabulous article, and by the way, a classic example of the literal interpretation of the Bible, which includes figures of speech. This is written by someone who believes in a literal hermeneutic, not a spiritualized or allegorized interpretation.
Robert I Bradshaw
"Figures of Speech" by Robert I Bradshaw
Fabulous article, and by the way, a classic example of the literal interpretation of the Bible, which includes figures of speech. This is written by someone who believes in a literal hermeneutic, not a spiritualized or allegorized interpretation.
here's an exchange, from a few posts back. notice the reference is Revelation 12:4-5 (why is the Book recapitulating; going back and reviewing the story of Jesus...right back to His birth...deep into Rev...in chapter 12 - answer, because that is what it does - retells the narrative 7 times...it is NOT chronological the way you think it is.)
..
Isdaniel said:
Sure look like on the earth to me
Revelation 12:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Zone said:
where was the manchild caught up to
who was he.
when did it happen.
PlainWord said:
I have always taken this to be Jesus, caught up to heaven when He ascended following his resurrection. The only person who I am aware of who is said to "Rule all Nations with a Rod of Iron" is Christ. Do you have a different understanding?
--
and PlainWord is right.
and i can show you where we see the same events retold many ways - including in Rev 20, where, no - i`m sorry - the reigning is said to be IN HEAVEN, not on earth
..
Isdaniel said:
Sure look like on the earth to me
Revelation 12:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Zone said:
where was the manchild caught up to
who was he.
when did it happen.
PlainWord said:
I have always taken this to be Jesus, caught up to heaven when He ascended following his resurrection. The only person who I am aware of who is said to "Rule all Nations with a Rod of Iron" is Christ. Do you have a different understanding?
--
and PlainWord is right.
and i can show you where we see the same events retold many ways - including in Rev 20, where, no - i`m sorry - the reigning is said to be IN HEAVEN, not on earth
Has anybody who believes that the rapture will happen before the tribulation ever really considered these verses?
Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:24-27 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV)
[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I don't see here that God's elect goes straight to heaven at this point either.
Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:24-27 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV)
[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I don't see here that God's elect goes straight to heaven at this point either.
Anyone else see 1 Cor 15:51 on as post millennial and not related to Trib era? Zone?
[TABLE="width: 303"]
[TR]
[TD]Event[/TD]
[TD]1 Thes 4[/TD]
[TD]1 Cor 15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Saints coming from heaven[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lord Coming[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Angel(s) Present[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Voice of Anchangel[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Shout[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alive Caught up/Gathered[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Meet in clouds in "air"[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Always be with the Lord[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Timing Given[/TD]
[TD]x*[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Trumpet[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Asleep Proceeding Living[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dead in Christ Resurrected[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Living "Changed"[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kingdom of God[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]In a moment/twinkling of eye[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Last Trump or Trumpet[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]* in 1 Thes 5:2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 303"]
[TR]
[TD]Event[/TD]
[TD]1 Thes 4[/TD]
[TD]1 Cor 15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Saints coming from heaven[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lord Coming[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Angel(s) Present[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Voice of Anchangel[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Shout[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alive Caught up/Gathered[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Meet in clouds in "air"[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Always be with the Lord[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Timing Given[/TD]
[TD]x*[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Trumpet[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Asleep Proceeding Living[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dead in Christ Resurrected[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Living "Changed"[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kingdom of God[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]In a moment/twinkling of eye[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Last Trump or Trumpet[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]* in 1 Thes 5:2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
you sound like you were scared into salvation, did you come to the alter because you accepted that Jesus died and rose again from the grave for your sin so you can have eternal life through his Son ir did you pray only because you were afraid of going through the end times, sometimes`the fear of hell can motivate people to get saved, you sound like you need assurance, biblical assurance that you are saved. because he will take his children from this earth before the tribulation before Jacobs trouble. the story of the rapture can burn you out but God want to bring depth to you in your heart, dont develop an attitude about it, confess your fear and your unbelief about His word and pray about your assurance,dont make up your mind that this is going to be your attitude about the rapture, maybe you need to listen to good bible based rapture preaching to understand and not from some movie no matter how christian it seems, always go by the bible about any subject spiritual, then youl be able to grow as a christian founded from the word
While it is true the word rapture is foreign to the scriptures I will say that a lot of the bible is given to the "body presence of Christ " and our gathering together unto him. Having said that I guess God made a mistake (being facetious) when he moved the writers of the bible to write all the scripture that centers around the RAPTURE of God's people. WOW!
Good points. I have thought for years that a pre trib rapture was correct until the last 3 or 4 years. 1972 was the beginning of my new life in Christ. The pre trib thing makes the church apathetic, opposed to the way God wants the church to be involved in world affairs for His glory and honor despite persecution. One could say that the pre trib doctrine causes "a pathetic" situation. Pun intended. If we are going to be gone before the real bad stuff happens, then these verses would never have been prophesied for our understanding.
Revelation 13:7-10 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If any man have an ear, let him hear.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 13:7-10 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If any man have an ear, let him hear.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
