There is bad application on both sides. The pre-trib position may well have an escapist mentality, but non-imminency positions often suffer from indifference as to the expectation of the return of Christ. We should live like Christ could come today, and in 1000 years, so we make this world as best we can, we preach the kingdom of the gospel to the whole world, but I think we should also realize that God has a final conquering presence that He will accomplish and no amount of effort on our part will make everything better, God has to do that. So we live in the world, we live like we're here for a long time, and we also live like there's no tomorrow.
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I agree that recapitulation is a literary phenomenon common in prophetic and apocalyptic literature. However, Rev. 12 shows 6Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
There is warrant for understanding this to be about the tribulation period. So Jesus ascension and then Jewish persecution are not chronologically consecutive. If this is evidence for recapitulation it falls woefully short. 5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
Notice the Son ruling all the nations is future. This doesn't show Him ruling yet, it actually seems to show that He's caught up to heaven until He rules, which is naturally shown in Rev. 20. You may think I have no warrant for seeing the millenium being reigning on the earth, but Rev. 20 clearly begins with the angel coming down out of heaven and taking hold of Satan, who is on earth, having been thrown down to heaven as seen in Rev. 12. Satan is enchained and abyssed and Christ reigns on earth. Where can Satan deceive the nations? Only on earth, not in heaven. So he's chained so that the nations of earth will not be deceived. Then clearly he's set free again and continues to deceive, where? On earth, which is the only place he can do so. There is far more evidence to see Rev. 20 as happening on earth than in heaven.
There is warrant for understanding this to be about the tribulation period. So Jesus ascension and then Jewish persecution are not chronologically consecutive. If this is evidence for recapitulation it falls woefully short. 5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
Notice the Son ruling all the nations is future. This doesn't show Him ruling yet, it actually seems to show that He's caught up to heaven until He rules, which is naturally shown in Rev. 20. You may think I have no warrant for seeing the millenium being reigning on the earth, but Rev. 20 clearly begins with the angel coming down out of heaven and taking hold of Satan, who is on earth, having been thrown down to heaven as seen in Rev. 12. Satan is enchained and abyssed and Christ reigns on earth. Where can Satan deceive the nations? Only on earth, not in heaven. So he's chained so that the nations of earth will not be deceived. Then clearly he's set free again and continues to deceive, where? On earth, which is the only place he can do so. There is far more evidence to see Rev. 20 as happening on earth than in heaven.
It would serve all to read in Daniel about the tribulation period how there will be people "with knowledge" who will turn many to righteousness. People with this type of knowledge would have to be those who already believe and know God. Also, do you want a type of god who would leave the world to its own devices during the greatest tribulation ever? If you love, I think you do not want this. The time for all who are separate from the children of the Most High God will be after judgment. Think on this please.. I do not want people falling away from their faith come the tribulation just because they are here for it... God bless you always.............
This is an unrelated side note but can someone tell me why "heaven" is always depicted as "up".
you say " waving bye bye on my way up"
why do you think heaven is up there? we are pretty sure "up there" is atmosphere and outer space
obviously your physical body wont survive a trip "up there" so what happens?
with what we know i assume "heaven" is another dimension invisible to us but that begs the question again, historically it has been that "heaven" was "up" we now know that is not true in the strictest sense. Why continue with an outdated reference?
you say " waving bye bye on my way up"
why do you think heaven is up there? we are pretty sure "up there" is atmosphere and outer space
obviously your physical body wont survive a trip "up there" so what happens?
with what we know i assume "heaven" is another dimension invisible to us but that begs the question again, historically it has been that "heaven" was "up" we now know that is not true in the strictest sense. Why continue with an outdated reference?
It's not completely outdated. Look at Isaiah 14:
13“But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north. 14‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
15“Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.
I agree that heaven is a different place, but to say it's a different dimension or invisible is something the Bible doesn't actually say. We philosophically speculate, but to say we know what's in outer space just because we've been to the moon a few times and have sent a probe to Mars is very laughable to the God of the universe.
13“But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north. 14‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
15“Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.
I agree that heaven is a different place, but to say it's a different dimension or invisible is something the Bible doesn't actually say. We philosophically speculate, but to say we know what's in outer space just because we've been to the moon a few times and have sent a probe to Mars is very laughable to the God of the universe.
C
Whereas belief in Christ and the Bible is not designed to create paranoia and hysteria among the masses, make no mistake, the blessings of obedience are evident in the lives of those who follow Christ and their joy is abiding and abundant. If you don't like the gall try the honey!! It is sweet!!!!
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It may serve you well to consider this, there is a finite number of souls coming to Jesus Christ. It stands to reason that towards the end of this age the number of those who do not believe will become the vast majority. It is not that there is not enough room in the Kingdom, it is that our Father knows the number and each's name.
I do not believe in the Rapture, at least in the way it was theorized in the late 1800s (mostly for the reason of its late conception.) That is to say the supposed pre-tribulation "rapture" which false and confused preachers use to sell themselves and to gain fame for themselves. I believe God's promise of Resurrection.
If one stretches the "Rapture" idea to a degree you could argue that the return of Jesus and the first Resurrection is something of a Rapture-esque event (Revelations 20:4-6.) Though of course the Bible explicitly calls this the First Resurrection, that is to say the Resurrection for those holy and valiant people that trully believed in God and lived and died to prove it throughout the Tribulation and especially those who lived and died for refusing the Mark of the Beast during the Third Woe.
The Second Resurrection is described as the judgement of all humanity that ever lived and they shall receive either eternal life or the second death. (Revelation 20:12-15). I notice someone claim Daniel supports "rapture" theory, but in fact if you check out Daniel 12:1-2 you will see Daniel also speak of Resurrection (very important as Daniel is one of the most credible prophets in regard to his prophecies coming to pass in pretty stunning accuracy.) Of course the whole story of Jesus life, crucifixion, and Resurrection is the best example to God's Promise.
I think the OP (original poster) though shows the real mindset of Rapturists. Thou fear to die, and rightly so because death is terrible. However, don't let death vex you too much because God promises to Resurrect everyone, and promises eternal life to those that believe in Him. So you can see God is the only one possible to offer Salvation from death.
Here is a pretty good list of Bible verses pertaining to the Resurrection for you to cross-reference at your leisure:
What Does the Bible Say About Resurrection?
The only way to approve of Rapture theory is to understand it as the return of the LORD and the First Resurrection. Understand these things happen after The Tribulation and the Three Woes.
You must understand this concept because you will not be "Raptured" and escape the Tribulation (for we may all ready be in Tribulation even now.) At least not in the way that pop culture portrays it. I understand, and I am sure God understands nobody wants to suffer in this World. This is why God promises Resurrection and Salvation, because suffering and death are only temporary, but God and His Word are permanant. I don't tell you these things to increase your fear, but rather to diminish it because through God's promise of Resurrection, if you believe in God, you need not worry about death no matter what happens in this World.
Understand also I am not trying to blame you or anything, I understand how easy it is for people to be mislead especially in today's time. Simply trying to turn you onto God's ultimate promise of Salvation and Resurrection. Remember God defeats death itself and He can raise up anyone!
If one stretches the "Rapture" idea to a degree you could argue that the return of Jesus and the first Resurrection is something of a Rapture-esque event (Revelations 20:4-6.) Though of course the Bible explicitly calls this the First Resurrection, that is to say the Resurrection for those holy and valiant people that trully believed in God and lived and died to prove it throughout the Tribulation and especially those who lived and died for refusing the Mark of the Beast during the Third Woe.
The Second Resurrection is described as the judgement of all humanity that ever lived and they shall receive either eternal life or the second death. (Revelation 20:12-15). I notice someone claim Daniel supports "rapture" theory, but in fact if you check out Daniel 12:1-2 you will see Daniel also speak of Resurrection (very important as Daniel is one of the most credible prophets in regard to his prophecies coming to pass in pretty stunning accuracy.) Of course the whole story of Jesus life, crucifixion, and Resurrection is the best example to God's Promise.
I think the OP (original poster) though shows the real mindset of Rapturists. Thou fear to die, and rightly so because death is terrible. However, don't let death vex you too much because God promises to Resurrect everyone, and promises eternal life to those that believe in Him. So you can see God is the only one possible to offer Salvation from death.
Here is a pretty good list of Bible verses pertaining to the Resurrection for you to cross-reference at your leisure:
What Does the Bible Say About Resurrection?
The only way to approve of Rapture theory is to understand it as the return of the LORD and the First Resurrection. Understand these things happen after The Tribulation and the Three Woes.
You must understand this concept because you will not be "Raptured" and escape the Tribulation (for we may all ready be in Tribulation even now.) At least not in the way that pop culture portrays it. I understand, and I am sure God understands nobody wants to suffer in this World. This is why God promises Resurrection and Salvation, because suffering and death are only temporary, but God and His Word are permanant. I don't tell you these things to increase your fear, but rather to diminish it because through God's promise of Resurrection, if you believe in God, you need not worry about death no matter what happens in this World.
Understand also I am not trying to blame you or anything, I understand how easy it is for people to be mislead especially in today's time. Simply trying to turn you onto God's ultimate promise of Salvation and Resurrection. Remember God defeats death itself and He can raise up anyone!
Just be sure your head is still on your shoulders when you make the trip. Don't become part of the Great Multitude (Rev 7) who are slaughtered for going out after the False Christ.
2 Thes 2:
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
Is the Lawless One coming to deceive the unbeliever or the Christian??? The unbeliever is already deceived so there can only be one answer.
2 Thes 2:
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
Is the Lawless One coming to deceive the unbeliever or the Christian??? The unbeliever is already deceived so there can only be one answer.
Matthew 24:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
According to the pre trib doctrine, the elect won't be around to be deceived. Has this deception already begun, or am I missing the who point by not seeing this as past tense as pretribers have?
I was reading the following scripture to a group here in CC the other day, and one said that what Jesus said in Matt 24:29-31 had already happened way before Jesus was born. I have determined that any excuse will do for some.
Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Then I added these two scriptures references to compare what Jesus said to what Paul wrote, and the person couldn't see the relationship. Sad
1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV)
[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and *so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Revelation 11:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, *The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
According to the pre trib doctrine, the elect won't be around to be deceived. Has this deception already begun, or am I missing the who point by not seeing this as past tense as pretribers have?
I was reading the following scripture to a group here in CC the other day, and one said that what Jesus said in Matt 24:29-31 had already happened way before Jesus was born. I have determined that any excuse will do for some.
Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Then I added these two scriptures references to compare what Jesus said to what Paul wrote, and the person couldn't see the relationship. Sad
1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV)
[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and *so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Revelation 11:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, *The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
What does Babylon represent? Confusion perhaps?? Who then uses confusion to deceive?? Who takes scripture and twists it ever so slightly to alter the meaning?? Who deceived Adam and Eve into "worshiping" him by twisting God's Word? Who attempted to get Jesus to worship him by twisting the Word? Is there reason to think Satan might try the same thing again in these end times?
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
How can the potential for the Elect to be seduced even exist if they have already been raptured?
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
What does Babylon represent? Confusion perhaps?? Who then uses confusion to deceive?? Who takes scripture and twists it ever so slightly to alter the meaning?? Who deceived Adam and Eve into "worshiping" him by twisting God's Word? Who attempted to get Jesus to worship him by twisting the Word? Is there reason to think Satan might try the same thing again in these end times?
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
How can the potential for the Elect to be seduced even exist if they have already been raptured?
Does CC stand for Calvary Chapel? It is really sad that they are so good on most things but when it comes to this Satanic Rapture Doctrine, they have swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
I come from an Evangelical Fundamentalist back ground. My dad was a pastor and taught this Rapture lie so I grew up believing it. Finally in my 20s I started questioning it. When I finally came to the conclusion that the Rapture is not taught I had to re-program much of my belief system concerning prophesy.
The truth is the vast majority of Christians will be deceived by the False One. The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine will be a key component to the deception. I believe the 1/3 of the world that is killed at the 6th trumpet will be predominately Christians and that this is the Great Multitude in heaven seen in Rev 7. The group represented by the 144K will be the only Christians left. Many of them will be killed but for the right reason - for standing up to Satan. When Christ returns he will bring those martyrs and catch up the remnant of the 144K group and together they battle and defeat Satan's forces at Armageddon.
I come from an Evangelical Fundamentalist back ground. My dad was a pastor and taught this Rapture lie so I grew up believing it. Finally in my 20s I started questioning it. When I finally came to the conclusion that the Rapture is not taught I had to re-program much of my belief system concerning prophesy.
The truth is the vast majority of Christians will be deceived by the False One. The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine will be a key component to the deception. I believe the 1/3 of the world that is killed at the 6th trumpet will be predominately Christians and that this is the Great Multitude in heaven seen in Rev 7. The group represented by the 144K will be the only Christians left. Many of them will be killed but for the right reason - for standing up to Satan. When Christ returns he will bring those martyrs and catch up the remnant of the 144K group and together they battle and defeat Satan's forces at Armageddon.
That's right on target. There is no place that I read in the Bible that says when the elect are gathered into the clouds with Christ that we go straight to heaven. All it says its that we will be with Him forever, and we will reign with Him. Sounds like we will be participants in a battle that will be won. The kingdom of God is directly after this battle and will be right here on earth.
Revelation 21:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Ezekiel 37:15-19 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Revelation 11:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 21:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Ezekiel 37:15-19 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Revelation 11:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
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