There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity
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Re: You simply don't know scripture...
That is only Greek grammar subjected to an artifical rule that says: translate Titus 2.13 as you have translated it because otherwise there is no biblical support for Jesus being God (Granvile Sharp rule).
And no, we're not going to reduce the doctrinal orthodoxy of the Trinity to an artificial rule of grammar dreamed up 1700 years after the original Greek was first written. The unorthodoxy of the Trinity is posited by Deut 6;4 that "commands" all believers to treat God as a unity. This is what you guys just can't cope with. You have a decree, an order, a command from the Old Testament that God is a unity, he is One, he is spirit, he is not to be treated as a pagan system with many Gods. There is nothing that Jesus said or did that showed that we were to stop obeying that order. Trinitarians have given themselves licenese to ignore God's own word and set up their own system based on a pagan conception of God.
That is only Greek grammar subjected to an artifical rule that says: translate Titus 2.13 as you have translated it because otherwise there is no biblical support for Jesus being God (Granvile Sharp rule).
And no, we're not going to reduce the doctrinal orthodoxy of the Trinity to an artificial rule of grammar dreamed up 1700 years after the original Greek was first written. The unorthodoxy of the Trinity is posited by Deut 6;4 that "commands" all believers to treat God as a unity. This is what you guys just can't cope with. You have a decree, an order, a command from the Old Testament that God is a unity, he is One, he is spirit, he is not to be treated as a pagan system with many Gods. There is nothing that Jesus said or did that showed that we were to stop obeying that order. Trinitarians have given themselves licenese to ignore God's own word and set up their own system based on a pagan conception of God.
Re: You simply don't know scripture...
TSKS applies in the same fashion to both NT Greek and secular Greek - and mandates that the Jesus is the singular referent for both Theos and Savior.
There are no known exceptions to this rule.
Thus....on the basis of established Greek grammar, alone, your denial is moot.
Any denial that you have going forward is from sheer ignorance of the language, itself...
The Shema IS Trinitarian to begin with.
You simply don't know scripture...
TSKS applies in the same fashion to both NT Greek and secular Greek - and mandates that the Jesus is the singular referent for both Theos and Savior.
There are no known exceptions to this rule.
Thus....on the basis of established Greek grammar, alone, your denial is moot.
Any denial that you have going forward is from sheer ignorance of the language, itself...
The Shema IS Trinitarian to begin with.
You simply don't know scripture...
St. John 14,6: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."
Who could say about himself that he is the way, the truth and the life, if not God Himself? Did not got defined Himself as being the One that is? Doesn`t that mean that He is life/existence itself and even more than that? How can Jesus Christ be begotten by God and yet not be of the same essence as God? The same goes for the Holy Spirit that proceeds from God. Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are begotten/proceedeth by God and not created, like the rest of us.
Who could say about himself that he is the way, the truth and the life, if not God Himself? Did not got defined Himself as being the One that is? Doesn`t that mean that He is life/existence itself and even more than that? How can Jesus Christ be begotten by God and yet not be of the same essence as God? The same goes for the Holy Spirit that proceeds from God. Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are begotten/proceedeth by God and not created, like the rest of us.
AND when the Unitarians and other non-Trinitarians try to say Gen. 1:26 was just GOD talking to the Angels, then remind them that Angels DO NOT CREATE, NOR are they LIKE GOD. We are because like GOD, we are a triune being, three parts (body, soul, and spirit) but still only ONE human being. And when they argue so you think God was talking to himself, like He was crazy. You say, three personages carrying on a conversation, withing ONE DEITY, is not crazy; besides Jesus consider a mental debate within a human to be quite normal.
Luke 12:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
One more quick one, that most do not find:
Isaiah 43:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
Luke 1:47 (HCSB)
[SUP]47 [/SUP] and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior,
Luke 2:11 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Philippians 3:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] but our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
All this nonsense about essences, natures, multiple hypostases is just froth. This is the reality:
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]
Hbr 2:17 "For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people."
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Jesus the man was not God, just because he was a man. He asserted equality with God by reason of his origin (heaven)
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]
Hbr 2:17 "For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people."
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Jesus the man was not God, just because he was a man. He asserted equality with God by reason of his origin (heaven)
The descent of the Holy Spirit in form of "fire-like tongues" is also a proof that the Holy Spirit shares the same essence (sorry, but I do not find another word) as God the Word, because what is more related to the word if not tongues? And also God is defined (among other attributes) as a "consuming fire".
I have to say, I never used to understand the verse that asked, when Jesus returned, would He find faith on the earth...
Sounded kind of silly to me. Of COURSE He would! Why wouldn't He??? Sadly, I get it now. The answer is, "very little"...
Faith in what "isn't" true isn't "real" faith. In these "last days", (a "basic truth" that only a fraction of "professing" Christians believe these days) the "apostate" church which sadly makes up the majority of what passes for the "church" now, teaches all manner of false doctrines as "God's" truth, (just read these threads for proof) and is leading the masses down the broad path to hell...
So no....He WON'T find very much Godly "faith" at all...
Sounded kind of silly to me. Of COURSE He would! Why wouldn't He??? Sadly, I get it now. The answer is, "very little"...
Faith in what "isn't" true isn't "real" faith. In these "last days", (a "basic truth" that only a fraction of "professing" Christians believe these days) the "apostate" church which sadly makes up the majority of what passes for the "church" now, teaches all manner of false doctrines as "God's" truth, (just read these threads for proof) and is leading the masses down the broad path to hell...
So no....He WON'T find very much Godly "faith" at all...
Interesting. The only person that Jesus demanded faith in, was himself, as he lived, in the flesh. Of course he demanded faith in God too, but he insisted that he was the one who demonstrated God.
Nowadays we are told we have to have faith in the Trinity, as a product of the human intellect. It never got around to being defined except in great Councils many centuries after the apostolic era. That usurps faith in Christ to my way of thinking. The early church has no conception of God other than as a unity, and that's good enough for me.
Nowadays we are told we have to have faith in the Trinity, as a product of the human intellect. It never got around to being defined except in great Councils many centuries after the apostolic era. That usurps faith in Christ to my way of thinking. The early church has no conception of God other than as a unity, and that's good enough for me.
T
I would say we are very much so like the angels. There are many times in the old testament where people see angels, and do not know that they are angels hinting that they looked much like us. And you are saying Angels don't create but what does God's will? The angels. If it was God's will for us to be created he would have used the angels to do so. It's the same concept that in the burning bush an angel is referred to as God. The angel is called God because he is doing the work of God and is being a messenger of God.
I still side on the idea of both God and Jesus being our saviors because Jesus did the will of God, so God used Jesus to do his will which was to save us. It doesn't mean that Jesus is a different savior, it's a concept God manifestation in that many times the angels are called God because they do God's will and carry his name. Jesus is similar, he did God's will perfectly.
About this whole Greek grammar stuff I have no idea, I've never studied Greek grammar, but I do know my scriptures quite well. Just because I do not interpret them the way you do does not mean I don't know what I am talking about.
I still side on the idea of both God and Jesus being our saviors because Jesus did the will of God, so God used Jesus to do his will which was to save us. It doesn't mean that Jesus is a different savior, it's a concept God manifestation in that many times the angels are called God because they do God's will and carry his name. Jesus is similar, he did God's will perfectly.
About this whole Greek grammar stuff I have no idea, I've never studied Greek grammar, but I do know my scriptures quite well. Just because I do not interpret them the way you do does not mean I don't know what I am talking about.
Nope...not a single bible verse is "anti-trinity", just heathens who misinterpret scripture.
Oh, and "tucksma", you "say" you became a Christian, (which I see no evidence of, but with effort it "could" happen) like 2-3 months ago??? At this point, you don't have a "clue" what you're talking about. But then, neither do 90% of the other wannabe bible scholars on here... \o/
Oh, and "tucksma", you "say" you became a Christian, (which I see no evidence of, but with effort it "could" happen) like 2-3 months ago??? At this point, you don't have a "clue" what you're talking about. But then, neither do 90% of the other wannabe bible scholars on here... \o/
T
Chris·tian
adjective
.
adjective
.
- of, relating to, or professing Christianity or its teaching
a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.
By this definition I am Christian. And you say I do not have clue based off the fact I havn't been baptized long (when I say christian I mean by baptism not by knowledge of scripture). I have studied the bible for longer than that amount of time, and very in depth. I wouldn't say I know everything by any means, but I do know the concept of the trinity, because I once was a believer of it. Through study I have found the trinity only makes sense if we imput "the father" or "the son" or "the spirit" in a lot of places in scripture.
I am curious though. When the bible says Yahweh, does the trinity teach that it is all three or just God the father? I had a class tonight on the name Yahweh and was just curious.
I would also like to say I am a bible student and am searching for truth. By no means am I like pro just my faith in a sense that if you prove me wrong, I will change my faith because I would see that my faith wouldn't be true. No one on here has done that to me.
Bowman you say that the OT is based on a Triune God, but I have not seen evidence that the OT especially refers to that. If you have any scripture I'd like to see it.
Majorjones I would disagree in saying that there are plenty of verses that are anti-trinity, but there are many that hint to a trinity as well. My problem is that if some hint to it and some don't make sense at all if the trinity is true then even with some hinting the ones that don't make sense with a trinity a still there.
Bowman I would also like to say that just because you make a good point does not mean the person needs to study up like you love to say every time you make a good point. Like learn to be able to talk to people without being rude. I never once have insulted you personally. I disagree with you but I have never attacked you. To speak to someone is a downward way like they are less than you is very wrong.
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He will, when the Day comes to test our Works to see what they are made of:
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.