There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

VCO · Dec 29, 2013

The Spirit part of JESUS is not a human spirit; while His Body and Soul are. You see we believe exactly what the Word of GOD says, while you have to jump through hoops and pull slight of hand tricks to make it mean what you want.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us.

VCO · Dec 29, 2013

Re: Faith in the Trinity...

Bowman said:

AMEN. Zola Levitt once explained the difference between what Jews means by Believe, compared to liberal meaning of the English word Believe this way.

He said, if two Jews walked up to a lake in early Winter,
and the first Jew said to the second Jew, "Do you believe the ice is thick enough to walk on yet?"
And the second Jew said, "Yes I do believe it is." And then timidly put one foot out there and gently started testing the ice.
The first Jew would shout, "LIAR, if you really believed it, you would have put your whole weight on it!"

just-me · Dec 29, 2013

VCO said:

Matthew 28:16-20 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the 1. Father, and of the 2. Son, and of the 3. Holy Ghost:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
1. Father
2. Son
3. Holy Ghost

Which one should we get rid of?

Genesis 1:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gjolll · Dec 29, 2013

just-me said:

Both are clutching at straws. Matt 28;20 may well be a later interpolation (google it) and the natural meaning of Gen 1;26 is God in his council of angels that is elsewhere alluded to in the Old Testament. The Son and the Spirit are manifestations of God, not proof that God is divided into parts or persons, even if, in some way, the risen son remains notionally distinct from the Father by being given his own throne of judgement.

just-me · Dec 29, 2013

Gjolll said:

Explain these three scripture references for all to understand.

Colossians 1:12-19 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

"the Father" are added words in italics

John 17:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Was Jesus praying to Himself, or the Holy Spirit of His Father that was inside of Him? After all, Jesus said that He did nothing by Himself, but only what His Father told Him to do and say.

1 Corinthians 15:26-28 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Gjolll · Dec 29, 2013

just-me said:

Our knowledge of God is limited by virtue of the fact that the physics of God is beyond all human comprehension, and therefore the law is that he must at all times be described as a unity (Deut 6;4). Both the Spirit and the human son of God, Jesus Christ are emanations and manifestations of God. In his heavenly aspect, Christ is described as the "Word of God" as distinct from the "Spirit of God" that is the Holy Spirit. that is perhaps just one of the spirits of God (in Rev God has 7 spirits).

Nearly all references to the son are to Jesus Christ the man, except where, e.g., as in John 1, Col 1, 1 Cor 15, etc the risen and pre-incarnate Word is taught by reference to specific functions as God, but all references to God are qualified by the teaching that the Father and the Word are "one God" not two people.

just-me · Dec 29, 2013

Gjolll said:

Trinity, and triune are not in the Bible that I read. I read the KJV. I believe those terms began with Father Son and Holy Spirit, via the great commission. I do agree that “One” according to Jesus’ position, actually means “Unit of One” as I have found out through study. Back to creation. You said God was talking to the angels when He said “let us make man in our image.” According to Colossians chapter 1 that I posted, and the prayer Jesus offered before His death, Jesus had a predominating presents in the cycle of creation. This could indicate that there is a certain togetherness, but not identical, as one individual being. Please explain further 1 Corinthians 15:28

cjordan38 · Dec 29, 2013

VCO said:

He will, when the Day comes to test our Works to see what they are made of:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Yup, when you get baptized with fire you recieve the Holy Ghost

zone · Dec 29, 2013

Isaiah 48:16
“Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

zone · Dec 29, 2013

Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: The LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten thee.

zone · Dec 29, 2013

cjordan38 said:

when you get baptized with fire it's bad judgment.
you don't want fire.

zone · Dec 29, 2013

2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

zone · Dec 29, 2013

Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered the wind in his fists?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son's name?
Surely you know!

zone · Dec 29, 2013

Isaiah 43:10
Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?"

John 18:6
When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.

John 8:58
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Bowman · Dec 29, 2013

Study up...

Gjolll said:

No.

You need to study scripture before making that ignorant comment.

Jesus repeats over, and over, and over again in the NT that Moses wrote about HIM.

Well....what did Moses write about The Son?

Moses declared that The Son was 'The Glory'....'The Word of God'....'The Messenger of God'....Yahweh, etc, etc.....LONG before NT times had come.....and.....ALL of these epithets were applied to what was SEEN of the Second Person of the Trinity BEFORE He was known as The Son!

Gjolll · Dec 29, 2013

Re: Study up...

Bowman said:

There is no "2nd person" of the Trinity because the Trinity does not exist, for God is not comprised of "persons" because God is "spirit" and "spirit" is not a "person" as a "person" is a human being, and "spirit" is not a human being and so not a person

and moreover

Deut 6;4 - it is breaking the law to divide God.

zone · Dec 29, 2013

Isaiah 6:1
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple.

John 12:41
Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

...

Verse 41. - These things said Isaiah, because he saw his glory, and he spake of him. By this reference to the theophany of Isaiah 6:1, 2 the evangelist here identifies Christ with the Adonai whom the prophet saw in his vision, and thus expresses his conception of the Christ (comp. 1 Corinthians 10:4; Philippians 2:6). Because the prophet saw the glory of Christ, the unutterable majesty of the "Word of God," he delivered, as we know, this tremendous burden. Few utterances of the New Testament convey in more startling form the conviction of the apostles touching the pre-existence of the Lord, and the identification of the Divine Personality of the Christ, with the highest conception that the Hebrew prophet entertained of the Almighty One, of the eternal Godhead. - Pulpit

When he saw his glory - Isaiah 6:1-10. Isaiah saw the Lord (in Hebrew, יהוה Yahweh) sitting on a throne and surrounded with the seraphim. This is perhaps the only instance in the Bible in which Yahweh is said to have been seen by man, and for this the Jews affirm that Isaiah was put to death. God had said Exodus 33:20, "No man shall see me and live;" and as Isaiah affirmed that he had seen Yahweh, the Jews, for that and other reasons, put him to death by sawing him asunder. See Introduction to Isaiah, Section 2. In the prophecy Isaiah is said expressly to have seen Yahweh John 12:1; and in John 12:5, "Mine eyes have seen the King Yahweh of hosts." By his glory is meant the manifestation of him - the Shechinah, or visible cloud that was a representation of God, and that rested over the mercy-seat. This was regarded as equivalent to seeing God, and John here expressly applies this to the Lord Jesus Christ; for he is nor affirming that the people did not believe in God, but is assigning the reason why they believed not on Jesus Christ as the Messiah. The whole discourse has respect to the Lord Jesus, and the natural construction of the passage requires us to refer it to him. John affirms that it was the glory of the Messiah that Isaiah saw, and yet Isaiah affirms that it was Yahweh; and from this the inference is irresistible that John regarded Jesus as the Yahweh whom Isaiah saw. The name Yahweh is never, in the Scriptures, applied to a man, or an angel, or to any creature. It is the unique, incommunicable name of God. So great was the reverence of the Jews for that name that they would not even pronounce it. This passage is therefore conclusive proof that Christ is equal with the Father. - Barnes

majorjones · Dec 29, 2013

Haven't you "real" Christians figured out yet that these "Xtian teachers" on this site aren't in the least bit interested in God's true Word or it's proper interpretatation???
They'd rather bloviate and "appear" wise like the pharisees than be useful to the body. In fact, they are the draught, so shake the dust and ignore them, like God does....

Peace.... \o/

Bowman · Dec 29, 2013

Re: Study up...

Gjolll said:

Mat 28.19

πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος

Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This passage contains arthrous substantives connected via kai which indicates distinction and separate referents.

However, while distinction is made between the referents, each has the same singular name.

This same singular name of three persons’ baptism is the same as the Aaronic blessing in which the singular name of Yahweh is repeated three times (Num 6.22 – 27).

Separate and yet the same, The Trinity.

Bowman · Dec 29, 2013

Re: Study up...

Gjolll said:

Let’s define our terms first…

ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.

Shama’ Yisra’el Yahweh Elohim Yahweh Echad

Deu 6:4 Hear,8085 O Israel:3478 Yahweh3068 our God430 Yahweh3068 (is)one259

יְהוָה = “Yahweh”

“Yahweh” definition:

H3068 Singular noun. The Tetragrammaton YHWH, the Lord, or Yahweh, the personal name of God and His most frequent designation in scripture, occurring 5321x. The word refers to the proper name of the God of Israel, particularly the name by which He revealed Himself to Moses (Ex: 6.2-3). It comes from the root “hawa” H1961, which means either existence, or development; “to be”. “The existing one”.

H1961 “hawa” A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

H1933 “havah” A primitive root supposed to mean properly to breathe; to be (in the sense of existence): - be, X have.

References:
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, & Geoffrey W. Bromiley, volume three, pp. 1067 - 1081
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #484a, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 210 – 212
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 426

ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.

אֱלֹהֵינוּ = “Elohim”

“Elohim” definition:

H430 A masculine plural noun. God, gods, judges, angels. This is not a “Plural of Majesty”. A better reason can be seen in scripture itself where, in the very first chapter of Genesis, the necessity of a term conveying both the unity of the one God and yet allowing for a plurality of persons is found (Gen 1.2, 26). This is further borne out by the fact that the form “Elohim” occurs only in Hebrew and in no other Semitic language, not even in Biblical Aramaic. Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

H433 “eloah” Masculine singular noun. God or god. From H410; a deity or the deity: - God, god. See H430.

References:
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #93c, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 41 - 45
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 54
The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible Red-letter Edition, James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., Hebrew and Aramaic dictionary, p. 17

ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.

אֶחָד = “echad”

“echad” definition:

H259 Adjective. One, same, single, first, each, once. It is closely identified with “yahad”, to be united and with “ro’sh”, first, head. It stresses unity while recognizing diversity within that oneness. A numerical adjective meaning one, first, once, the same. A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together. One (number), each, every, a certain, an (indefinite article), only, once, once for all, one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one, first, eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal).

H258 “achad” Verb. Perhaps a primitive root; to unify, that is, (figuratively) collect (one’s thoughts): - go one way or other; be sharp, keen.

References:
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #61, #605, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, p. 30, 263
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 33
The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible Red-letter Edition, James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., Hebrew and Aramaic dictionary, p. 10

Here is the message that the Classic Hebrew is conveying to us:

• Tetragrammaton = singular
• Elohim = Plural
• Echad = one unity
• The juxtaposed words…Tetragrammaton, Elohim, Tetragrammaton, Echad
• God is referred to not once, not twice, but three times
• Singular, Plural, Singular
• These three elements form one unity
• Singular = Plural
• Plural = Singular
• God = Gods
• God is clearly singular
• God is clearly plural
• God is Uniplural

Hence, it is little wonder why Jesus quoted and proclaimed this as most important…

Mar 12.29 - 30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is: "Hear, Israel. The Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul" and with all your mind, "and with all your strength." This is the first commandment. Deut. 6.4, 5

You would do well to research your “arguments” before hand…

There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

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