The Israel of God
- Thread starter zone
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Actually scientifically, drinking bloody salt water would be toxic, but drinking bloody fresh water, though disgusting, would not be toxic. Therefore this argument is null, not to mention, you don't believe in the literal meaning of these verses, anyway, so it's funny you should bring up an argument to a point which you interpret non-literally.
“Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,c said by the Holy Spirit,
“‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed’d—
27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. 29And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servantse to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
Is this really a transfer of all physical promises into spiritual ones? One verse being quoted about the nations raging and it is suddenly all about Jesus only being in heaven? I really think you're overstepping your case. You admit that the promises were physical, does Peter here really completely change the meaning of all the prophets and make it only a spiritual glory?
What about the sermon Peter preaches one chapter before?
19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.
There will be a future restoration. I know we all believe this to be ultimately new heavens and new earth. We agree, but there is also warrant to see Jesus being Prophet, Priest and King bringing in times of refreshing, fulfilling the physical promises of the prophets, reigning not only gloriously from heaven, but also ruling the nations on earth with a rod of iron. Peter preaches earthly as well as spiritual restoration.
“Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,c said by the Holy Spirit,
“‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed’d—
27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. 29And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servantse to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
Is this really a transfer of all physical promises into spiritual ones? One verse being quoted about the nations raging and it is suddenly all about Jesus only being in heaven? I really think you're overstepping your case. You admit that the promises were physical, does Peter here really completely change the meaning of all the prophets and make it only a spiritual glory?
What about the sermon Peter preaches one chapter before?
19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.
There will be a future restoration. I know we all believe this to be ultimately new heavens and new earth. We agree, but there is also warrant to see Jesus being Prophet, Priest and King bringing in times of refreshing, fulfilling the physical promises of the prophets, reigning not only gloriously from heaven, but also ruling the nations on earth with a rod of iron. Peter preaches earthly as well as spiritual restoration.
I believe I already answered your question Excalibur.
The time of Jacob's trouble is Daniel's 70th week. Daniel's 70th week begins AFTER the Body of Christ is removed from the Earth.
Daniel's 70th week will officially begin and start when the Antichrist confirms the covenant with the Jews for seven years (one week). (See Daniel 9:27).
This covenant will allow Israel to rebuild the temple.
You have failed to provide passages that explicitly say the body of Christ will be removed before Jacob's trouble without adding your personal interpretation.
Daniel 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Christ's sacrificial work put an end to the old sacrificial system. No antichrist there.
Daniel 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Christ's sacrificial work put an end to the old sacrificial system. No antichrist there.
I already provided passages that teach a Pre-trib. Rapture. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is one of them:
2 Thessalonians 2:7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The "he" in that passage is the Body of Christ.
Also, the Body of Christ must be removed from off of the Earth, because every Christian has Eternal Security in the Church Age. In the time of Jacob's trouble, only the 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of the children of Israel have eternal security, since they are the only ones who have the seal of God in their foreheads.
And that is more Scriptural proof for a Pre-trib. Rapture.
And you cannot refute that at all Starfield.
Christ's sacrificial work did indeed put an end to the old sacrificial system.
Last edited:
Wrong.
Study your Bible Starfield.
Daniel 9:24-27
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The "he" in verse 27 is the prince (lowercase) of the people in verse 26.
It is the antichrist which causes the oblation and sacrifice to case, and for the overspreading of ABOMINATIONS he (the antichrist/man of sin) shall make it desolate:
Matthew 24:15
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mark 13:14
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judæa flee to the mountains:
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
You compare Scripture with Scripture.
And when you do that, it is clear that the "he" of Daniel 9:27 is indeed the man of sin/antichrist.
B
Your goal and motivation is to repudiate, discredit and slander any and every scripture that would testify to the fact of a pretrib catching away of the saints, who make up the church and body of Christ, both those alive and those who are dead, who will be caught up together in the clouds of the air forever to be with the Lord. You see no catching away of the church because you operate in your understanding with the same premise that Zone and others do. That is your error not mine nor with many who are Spirit-filled believers that love God and long for his coming and to be caught away before a time of great tribulation comes coming upon the earth. Can't help you, you don't really want it and God knows how many have tried. You will have to live and die with what you got and hope for the best. You will be the one that suffers loss because the work of coming to the knowledge of the truth is a work that will be rewarded or will suffer loss of rewards. My love toward you is unconditional in terms of the sin that Christ paid for but it is conditional according to knowledge and judgment because of your terrible doctrine that you abide in.
B
Don't forget the rest of the post...
...because you operate in your understanding with the same premise that Zone and others do. That is your error not mine nor with many who are Spirit-filled believers that love God and long for his coming and to be caught away before a time of great tribulation comes coming upon the earth. Can't help you, you don't really want it and God knows how many have tried. You will have to live and die with what you got and hope for the best. You will be the one that suffers loss because the work of coming to the knowledge of the truth is a work that will be rewarded or will suffer loss of rewards. My love toward you is unconditional in terms of the sin that Christ paid for but it is conditional according to knowledge and judgment because of your terrible doctrine that you abide in.
It does not matter how much you and others talk about Jesus and his first coming, it will not take away from God raising up the people of Israel once again and restoring the kingdom and house of David. All of Israel will see Christ when he comes a second time unto salvation and Israel will be restored and delivered, not the church, for Christ and the church will be together. You can ignore these promises to Israel but it will never stop them from coming to past and Christ will be at front and center with his elect nation and people. You can try and turn hearts away from this like others have tried but it will only lead to confusion for a time and God will overcome that with the light and manifest the truth fulfilling every single word. Jesus came the first time to his own and they rejected him making him irrelevant, the next time he comes for them at the end of the tribulation, they will see him and receive him and that will be relevant and undeniable.
...because you operate in your understanding with the same premise that Zone and others do. That is your error not mine nor with many who are Spirit-filled believers that love God and long for his coming and to be caught away before a time of great tribulation comes coming upon the earth. Can't help you, you don't really want it and God knows how many have tried. You will have to live and die with what you got and hope for the best. You will be the one that suffers loss because the work of coming to the knowledge of the truth is a work that will be rewarded or will suffer loss of rewards. My love toward you is unconditional in terms of the sin that Christ paid for but it is conditional according to knowledge and judgment because of your terrible doctrine that you abide in.
It does not matter how much you and others talk about Jesus and his first coming, it will not take away from God raising up the people of Israel once again and restoring the kingdom and house of David. All of Israel will see Christ when he comes a second time unto salvation and Israel will be restored and delivered, not the church, for Christ and the church will be together. You can ignore these promises to Israel but it will never stop them from coming to past and Christ will be at front and center with his elect nation and people. You can try and turn hearts away from this like others have tried but it will only lead to confusion for a time and God will overcome that with the light and manifest the truth fulfilling every single word. Jesus came the first time to his own and they rejected him making him irrelevant, the next time he comes for them at the end of the tribulation, they will see him and receive him and that will be relevant and undeniable.
Chosen,
Have you compared scripture to scripture? Do you not see the threads between Exodus 7-11,Deuteronomy 28,31 and 32 and Revelation? Can it be that Revelation is God telling them that the curses of Deuteronomy 28 is about to poured out on Israel? God tells them in Deuteronomy 28 that He would pour out all the plagues of Egypt upon ISRAEL and worse.
Deuteronomy 28
25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth.26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away.27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured.28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind.29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.
58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.
Revelation repeats 7 of the 10 that were poured out on Egypt,they were warned that they would receive the same curses.
Revelation says the saints sing the song of Moses which God tells Moses that it is a WITNESS AGAINST ISRAEL not the world.
Deuteronomy 31
19 “Now write down this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them.20 When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their ancestors, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant. 21 And when many disasters and calamities come on them,this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath.” 22 So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites.
Can you please explain why these things are never mentioned by those who see Revelation as being future? Why is it ignored that God told Moses that the song he was to teach them was A WITNESS AGAINST ISRAEL and not the world? To make it anyone else is false and contradicts what God had already told us. Why is it that John is the only prophet to point back to the plagues of Egypt and the song of Moses? Shouldn't that be telling us something,or is it much better to IGNORE the very things that God told us?
Have you compared scripture to scripture? Do you not see the threads between Exodus 7-11,Deuteronomy 28,31 and 32 and Revelation? Can it be that Revelation is God telling them that the curses of Deuteronomy 28 is about to poured out on Israel? God tells them in Deuteronomy 28 that He would pour out all the plagues of Egypt upon ISRAEL and worse.
Deuteronomy 28
25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth.26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away.27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured.28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind.29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.
58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.
Revelation repeats 7 of the 10 that were poured out on Egypt,they were warned that they would receive the same curses.
Revelation says the saints sing the song of Moses which God tells Moses that it is a WITNESS AGAINST ISRAEL not the world.
Deuteronomy 31
19 “Now write down this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them.20 When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their ancestors, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant. 21 And when many disasters and calamities come on them,this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath.” 22 So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites.
Can you please explain why these things are never mentioned by those who see Revelation as being future? Why is it ignored that God told Moses that the song he was to teach them was A WITNESS AGAINST ISRAEL and not the world? To make it anyone else is false and contradicts what God had already told us. Why is it that John is the only prophet to point back to the plagues of Egypt and the song of Moses? Shouldn't that be telling us something,or is it much better to IGNORE the very things that God told us?
U
And herein lies the (your) problem. You believe that the Jews rejection of their Messiah, Lord and Saviour made Jesus Christ's first coming "irrelevant". Read it all you likeminded people. Read it twice. God needs the approval/acceptance of the Jews to make Him relevant. Disgustingly remarkable ... and remarkably disgusting. Repent Red ... while you still can.