Abuse and the Chruch

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T

tucksma

Guest
#101
#101
tripsin said:
Oh, now I get it. It's her fault. "Have you eaten Adam?" "The woman YOU gave me, she did it." Gen. 3:11-12.:D



We have been forgiven all sins - past, present, and future. He knows we love Him because we have accepted Him as our Savior. We express that love by loving God and our neighbor.



Well, hopefully you come to an enlightened understanding of God's word on the issue before you get married.:eek:
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Its not her fault! She's picking up the man's slack, stop twisting my words. It is his fault but the man in this situation is being ignorant of God's word. It doesn't grant her to be ignorant of it too. And actually many women in my church, and faith, agree whole hearted with me. Why? Because the bible says so. Do they love that they have to be submissive, I doubt it, do they understand they have to though? Yes cuz the bible says so.

If I had it my way there wouldn't be two different roles in men and women like the bible teaches, but I am not God. This is how God wrote it and wants it. If you disagree with it then you are disagreeing with God's word.
 
jag1977

jag1977

Banned
#102
Nov 2, 2013
1,380
6
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#102
I believe it is all the work of the Lord. The scriptures show us that the wicked will be judged. Any that not walk in righteousness and not have truth in their heart are evil. If a man is in the way of wickedness and inflicts abuse on his spouse then he must walk in righteousness but also keep the wickedness. The man becomes a murderer if he kills off or slays that evil part of himself which is actually of the Lord. He must walk in righteousness and seek truth. The fear of the Lord will then provide to each either increase or decrease. The Lord levels the field of the righteous and the wicked. The woman is awarded sorrow and her bones rot. The wicked is quickened in both by the Lord and only when they start to fear the Lord and walk in righteousness will they have increase there of.
 
RedTent

RedTent

Banned
#103
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#103
2Thewaters said:
Grace is given to those who obey

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the holy ghost,
whom God hath given to them that obey him.

The word of God says
Do not divorce

show me from the Bible where I am wrong.

When youdo not listen to the word of God there is no more sacrifice for your sins.
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In the first place grace is the unmerited forgiveness God offers, rather than obedience. Although it is through repentance and asking for forgiveness we have grace. I see how you reason to come to your conclusion, but God asks we be exact when we listen to Him.

If you only listen to one law scripture, you are not listening to law. Many laws apply to divorce. Do not divorce is one of them. That divorce is allowed because of man's hardness of heart is another. Also many other principles of God applies like justice and kindness. We are not kind if we allow ourselves to be punching bags. Sometimes we have to choose how to obey.

During the Holocaust times, the Gestapo were lied to about where Jews were hidden, and God says do not lie. If they hadn't lied it would have been the same as killing these people. Sometimes we have to choose.
 
Yahshua

Yahshua

Senior Member
#104
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
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#104
2Thewaters said:
Jesus was abused. I m glad he didn't divorce us
Our way s not the way of the world

If a woman is in danger, she can separate by consent but she may not be divorced.

That is what God says.

Christians are always abused.
They are fired, demoted, talked about and alandered. that is our way of life
If the wife had love she would give back love and maybe save the spouse

Divorce is not an optin for a christian.
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Hey 2thewaters. Christ wasn't actually married to his church yet when he was "abused" (suffered).

His suffering was the bridal price the husbandman willingly pays to her father to receive his wife in order to get married (that's why we're still due for a marriage supper at the end of days).

Then "I go prepare a place for you..." is what the groom said to his betrothed signalling that she was to wait for his return. It's also why other imagery like "being redeemed" (i.e. being bought free) was used. Christ wasn't abused by his bride. He was purchasing her from bondage to the world and its evil father.
 
2

2Thewaters

Guest
#105
#105
There is nothing to argue about.
Jesus said no divorce
it is a test.
do you have faith?
b

Faith is believing the Bible
doubt and unbelief is arguing your way out of it.
 
jag1977

jag1977

Banned
#108
Nov 2, 2013
1,380
6
0
#108
It's actually proverbs then reroute to psalms.
 
Angela53510

Angela53510

Senior Member
#109
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
2,957
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#109
tucksma said:
Its not her fault! She's picking up the man's slack, stop twisting my words. It is his fault but the man in this situation is being ignorant of God's word. It doesn't grant her to be ignorant of it too. And actually many women in my church, and faith, agree whole hearted with me. Why? Because the bible says so. Do they love that they have to be submissive, I doubt it, do they understand they have to though? Yes cuz the bible says so.

If I had it my way there wouldn't be two different roles in men and women like the bible teaches, but I am not God. This is how God wrote it and wants it. If you disagree with it then you are disagreeing with God's word.
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The only teaching of roles in the Bible is cultural. If you look back to Genesis 3, you see that AFTER the fall, God gives out roles. He did not create men and women with roles, except for the woman to be an ezer, or warrior helper with the man. Sadly, men like John Piper and Wayne Grudem and the Southern Baptist Convention have perpetuated this lie of roles. I suggest you try reading you Bible yourself, maybe marking down all the ways God used women in ways totally contrary to the Hebrew, Greek and Roman cultures, to say nothing of the Persians (Esther comes to mind!)
 
Misty77

Misty77

Senior Member
#110
Aug 30, 2013
1,746
45
0
#110
Angela53510 said:
The only teaching of roles in the Bible is cultural. If you look back to Genesis 3, you see that AFTER the fall, God gives out roles. He did not create men and women with roles, except for the woman to be an ezer, or warrior helper with the man. Sadly, men like John Piper and Wayne Grudem and the Southern Baptist Convention have perpetuated this lie of roles. I suggest you try reading you Bible yourself, maybe marking down all the ways God used women in ways totally contrary to the Hebrew, Greek and Roman cultures, to say nothing of the Persians (Esther comes to mind!)
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Genesis 1 tells mankind the species to be fruitful, to multiply, to subdue, and to have dominion over creation. Those are joint roles of authority. I don't recall many other discussions of roles until we get to the letters of Paul and Peter which indicates that they are highly dependent on culture. If they were gospel truth, then you would read about them in the OT and the gospels. I'm not saying that roles don't exist, just that they aren't quite as definitive as some people like to think.
 
J

john832

Senior Member
#111
May 31, 2013
11,389
193
63
#111
Misty77 said:
Just remember God will hold you to the same standards that you hold others to. Do you really want to continue withholding grace?
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This is patently false. God judges by one standard, not 7 billion.
 
Misty77

Misty77

Senior Member
#112
Aug 30, 2013
1,746
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#112
john832 said:
This is patently false. God judges by one standard, not 7 billion.
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So you're saying that Matthew was confused about what Jesus said?

[h=3]Matthew 7:2[/h]English Standard Version (ESV)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.
 
RedTent

RedTent

Banned
#113
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#113
Angela53510 said:
The only teaching of roles in the Bible is cultural. If you look back to Genesis 3, you see that AFTER the fall, God gives out roles. He did not create men and women with roles, except for the woman to be an ezer, or warrior helper with the man. Sadly, men like John Piper and Wayne Grudem and the Southern Baptist Convention have perpetuated this lie of roles. I suggest you try reading you Bible yourself, maybe marking down all the ways God used women in ways totally contrary to the Hebrew, Greek and Roman cultures, to say nothing of the Persians (Esther comes to mind!)
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Every discussion we have about what God wants us to do goes back to the same thing: Christ abolished the rules. Christ said he didn't.
 
T

tucksma

Guest
#114
#114
Angela53510 said:
The only teaching of roles in the Bible is cultural. If you look back to Genesis 3, you see that AFTER the fall, God gives out roles. He did not create men and women with roles, except for the woman to be an ezer, or warrior helper with the man. Sadly, men like John Piper and Wayne Grudem and the Southern Baptist Convention have perpetuated this lie of roles. I suggest you try reading you Bible yourself, maybe marking down all the ways God used women in ways totally contrary to the Hebrew, Greek and Roman cultures, to say nothing of the Persians (Esther comes to mind!)
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The roles are not talked about directly, I agree, but look at how women were used. Were they ever used to lead a church?

Paul does come out to specifically to adress the issue.

The concept that Paul would tell someone that because it is cultural makes sense if he said it and it wasn't in the bible, but it is so there must be a reason to why God put it in there. Maybe because it is how he designed men and women in this way? God is not the author of confusion, and to say that this is a cultural teaching is writting it off as a not true statement purely because you feel it is not truth.
 
T

tucksma

Guest
#115
#115
Misty77 said:
Genesis 1 tells mankind the species to be fruitful, to multiply, to subdue, and to have dominion over creation. Those are joint roles of authority. I don't recall many other discussions of roles until we get to the letters of Paul and Peter which indicates that they are highly dependent on culture. If they were gospel truth, then you would read about them in the OT and the gospels. I'm not saying that roles don't exist, just that they aren't quite as definitive as some people like to think.
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I agree that they aren't as definitive as people think, but women pasturing is one of the definitive points that are made. Also what scripture do you have showing that the letters are dependent on culture?
 
Misty77

Misty77

Senior Member
#116
Aug 30, 2013
1,746
45
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#116
tucksma said:
I agree that they aren't as definitive as people think, but women pasturing is one of the definitive points that are made. Also what scripture do you have showing that the letters are dependent on culture?
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It's literature analysis. They are letters. Letters are contextual and in response to something. It's critical thinking, and theology is among other things inherently logical.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#117
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#117
Misty77 said:
"We had failed to clearly describe what headship is not, and what submission is not. We came to the realization that abuse – a pattern of coercive control employing any one or more of emotional, verbal, sexual, spiritual, physical, financial and social mistreatment of the other spouse – is indeed biblical grounds for divorce and that we would no longer insist that a husband or wife was required by the Lord to remain in a relationship in which the marriage vows had been habitually broken."

"Over time, and by no means at my own doing, we came to realize that we had created an environment in our church that was abuser-friendly. Evil-friendly. We, as leaders, had encouraged our men to lord it over their wives and families rather than loving them. We had created an environment that was unbiblically oppressive to women. Myself and our elders, over some period of time, began to realize this – by the Lord’s mercy in showing us – and we began to make some changes."

Open Letter to Pastors: Abuse
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Hey Misty, Don't really know what your beef is with biblical order. If a man truly loves his wife or spouse he will treat her as a queen, take care of her needs, protect her, pour love and affection on her and in return she should have no problem being biblical and submissive to her husband. Complain to God as He is the one that decreed that Eve would be in submission to her own husband and made Adam the head of the house. This does not mean that she is a slave to be commanded around or whipped into submission, but at the same time one of the biggest problems with our society is the break down of order. The divine order that God has given not only in reference to himself and worship but also the family unit and who is to do what and be what within the ranks of a family unit.
 
Misty77

Misty77

Senior Member
#118
Aug 30, 2013
1,746
45
0
#118
dcontroversal said:
Hey Misty, Don't really know what your beef is with biblical order. If a man truly loves his wife or spouse he will treat her as a queen, take care of her needs, protect her, pour love and affection on her and in return she should have no problem being biblical and submissive to her husband. Complain to God as He is the one that decreed that Eve would be in submission to her own husband and made Adam the head of the house. This does not mean that she is a slave to be commanded around or whipped into submission, but at the same time one of the biggest problems with our society is the break down of order. The divine order that God has given not only in reference to himself and worship but also the family unit and who is to do what and be what within the ranks of a family unit.
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I'm not against order at all. God didn't decree that Eve would be in submission; he did tell her that a result of her sin that her husband would lord over her. There is a difference.

The issue at hand is when some husbands think that their job is to put their wives in their place and the churches that directly or indirectly support those ideas. A husband is to lead, and a wife gives submission as a gift. One spouse cannot demand or force the other one to fulfill their Biblical roles.
 
P

phil112

Guest
#119
#119
What believing woman wouldn't want to be under subjection to a Christian man?

Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;............................So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
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