Attack of the Judaizers

danschance · Jan 7, 2014

"Because Christ outshines the former" - The OT points toward Jesus. Jesus said to the Pharisees: "You search the scriptures (OT) because you think you will find eternal life, but they testify about me".

"Christ rounded out and made fuller the old, it does not mean that we must not use the old as a base that the new was built on?" - The New Testament has primacy over the OT. Sure the OT has value but the Christian needs to be familiar with the NT first and foremost.

RedTent said:

"You are looking at law the OT gave as only history." I am not amused at how people on this thread assume they know what I say, think and feel. Please don't do that to me, OK? I do read the OT, it has some relevant lessons for us today, but it clearly pales to the NT. The OT points to Jesus but in the NT we are introduced to Jesus.

RedTent said:

"When Christ fulfilled the law, and put forward the spirit of the law, he really didn't change anything." - Here is where alarms are going off. Do you really think the death of Christ on the cross didn't change anything? This is serious error.

RedTent said:

Thru Christ we know who God is to a much broader extent.

john832 · Jan 7, 2014

LT said:

Are they at cross purposes? Is the letter 180 degrees opposed to the spirit?

Killing is wrong in the letter, so is it righteousness in the spirit? Or is it still wrong?

Brother_Don · Jan 7, 2014

i don't think think the letter is 180 degrees, but i see people talking in circles, and it gets confusing. i really feel for those recently coming to want to know our Salvation Christ.

danschance · Jan 7, 2014

john832 said:

Jesus Himself affirmed 9 0f the the 10 commandments, We are not bound to ceremonial laws such as sabbath but murder is sin. The ceremonial laws are mere shadow of things to come (Col 2:16-17).

JaumeJ · Jan 7, 2014

One should beware of being paganized also. Paganization is turning from the teachings of the entire Bible to an easy, warm and fuzzy non-faith of Abraham approach to reading the Word. These folks accuse anyone who calls our Savior by His Hebrew name judaizers much of the time. They seem to think using His actual name is works of the law. There is no law to call Him Yeshua, nor to call Him Jesus.

Perhaps there is some truth to this, however it is odd that the name, Jesus, is held above His true name, and that it is not completely translated to English from the Hebrew, that translation being Who He is, Salvation.

If Iwere to always all Him Salvation, it is certain someone somewhere in the forum would find grave fault in this too. Calling Him Yeshua is getting closer to how all called Him when He walked His earth. For me, and for many others, calling Him Jesus is stepping away from the faith of Abraham in favor of Greek. God bless all who truly understand and believe Salvation. I do hope all understand as long as we address Him in the honor and glory He merits, we are perfectly acceptable for Him. It is unfortunate so many think they can defend God. It is He Who defends us always.

Nautilus · Jan 7, 2014

Dwark said:

Nope, that is not the definition.

Here,

Judaizers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In your case, by your handle/name I assume that you are a women. Paul states emphatically that you are not to instruct me. So if you want to talk about the weather, fine, if you want to talk about religion, you need to remain quite in church and not talk about religion until you get home, with your head covered or your hair shaved off and then you can ask your husband inside your house.

Well, I should have said the protestant abuse of Paul opposes Jesus, but ya.

Well, you have not demonstrated this, please do. As to the OP, he is pointing out heresy, and the irony is too funny.

Sexist much? If you hadn't noticed this is not church and regardless as wrong as your posts you should be willing to taker correction from men and women.

Brother_Don · Jan 7, 2014

They would have been in a world of hurt if they hadn't done what Debra suggested.

john832 · Jan 7, 2014

danschance said:

So, Christ Himself spoke the Ten Commandments from Mt. Sinai. He is the One who was the LORD. He gave Ten Commandments which are not ceremonial Laws. Now you are telling me He says "Oops, my bad. I had you put to death people for breaking my Sabbath. I had Israel removed from their land and carried into captivity for Sabbath breaking and Idolatry (equally ranked). I told you I made a perpetual covenant regarding the Sabbath but now I have changed my mind. I think I'll try something different now."

The Sabbath is not reaffirmed?

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Looking down through time to the end time days He says this...

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

What happened here? Did He mean to say Sunday but got confused?

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

The early church kept the Sabbath. It took an edict from constantine to "de-judaize" the church by outlawing Sabbath observance in the FOURTH century.

Well if the one who gave the Law on Mt. Sinai, Jesus Christ, said this...

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

And then changed His mind, how many more times has He changed His mind and what version are we on now? Version 6.7? What will He decide to change tomorrow?

chubbena · Jan 7, 2014

And Matt 12:12 ...............it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
Explicitly, do good on the Sabbath.
Implicitly, to each his own. Really?

KohenMatt · Jan 7, 2014

john832 said:

I think this is really the crux of the issue. Either God lied, or we have 2 different gods. God told His people that He chose, to do certain things forever, for eternity. And that by them doing them, He would be pleased.

Then Jesus comes along, and we assume that He is doing away with all of the these things (even though He never said so).

So either:
1) God lied when He said to do those things forever, but changed His mind when He came in the flesh as Jesus.
2) Jesus supercedes God by getting things right in the NT, thereby implying 2 different Gods, where 1 is more correct than the other.

As an aside, if we believe God really did mean forever, then we would endorse and support the Jewish people following the Torah and offering Sacrifices in order to be in right relationship with God. Because if He truly meant that they should do those things forever, then we should recognize that it grants them access to Him forever. I don't know many people who would say that.

2Thewaters · Jan 7, 2014

The Jews are fine
they are the church of God
the Jews by blood were stiff necked so Jesus had to go to the pagans to convert a few and make them Jews by faith through the dark days
when the PAGANS attacked and took over his church

Salvation is not of the pagan caucasion sun god worshippers
Salvation is still of the Jews

My Jesus is Jewish
do you love him?
He wants to adopt you into the Jewish truth and take you into the Jewish temple
but the Pagan hypnosis says
salvation is of the caucasions and all you have to do is say Jesus is Lord and Jesus is come in the flaesh
and they believe the lie and make him caucasion

silly

go to any store
by a picture of Jesus
he is caucasion

they have become craxy with money power and cant read

Ohm hey, there is good money in this religious stuff!
Let us go and build large churches with widescreen tv's and have pizza parties!
let us build basketball courts in our temples

they have lost their minds...

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit and in truth: for the father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24 God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

the truth is Jewish
my Bible is Jewish
every prophet is Jewish
Abraham is Jewish
by FAITH Abraham is Jewish see?

He is father of all us Jews
he was a caucasions and God converted him to a Jew and all who join him God makes Jewish by faith

anyone wants to prove it read your Bible

the new Jerusalme has twelve gate

each one has over the door the name of a Jewish tribe and every one of the twelve foundations is a Jewish disciple
and no one who is not a Jew by faith or a Jew by blood will ever enter there.

Better wake up man,
time to get out of caucasion Babylon and come to the Jewish Bible

every writer in the Bible was Jewish.

john832 · Jan 7, 2014

KohenMatt said:

Well, here goes another round of criticism for me but then, I have never really cared much what people think of me...

Anyhoo, what is the state of Israel currently?

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear

unto this day.

They cannot see the truth because God has blinded them. Why?

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

They are blinded so that God can have mercy on them in the future. They have been blinded by God and will receive mercy.

We also read...

Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Notice the old is obsolete and READY to vanish away? It hasn't, it is just ready to. There is a big difference between being ready to and already have. If you are ready to die, is that the same as having died? Big difference.

There are still under the only Covenant they can see or understand. Who is responsible for that?

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Rom 11:8 Just as it is written: "GOD HAS GIVEN THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE AND EARS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT HEAR, TO THIS VERY DAY."

So, is God a Covenant breaker or Covenant keeper? Will Israel be under the Old Covenant until God grants them sight and understanding? Or will He just go back on His word and discard them for what they had no control over?

Elin · Jan 7, 2014

WomanLovesTX said:

Jesus preached that the kingdom is here, and that it is not of this world, but invisible
and within you (Lk 17:20-21).
Christ's kingdom is with the hearts of men in whom he rules and reigns.

The kingdom of Israel was restored after their return from exile in Babylon, when Jerusalem was rebuilt with it walls and Temple, and the people rededicated themselves to God (Ne 12:43).

There is no Biblical warrant for another restoration in time.

JaumeJ · Jan 7, 2014

If people who throw around the term new covenant would look at what is written about it, how the truth is to be written on our inward parts on the flesh tablet of our heart, then continue to read how it will no longer be said, know the Lord, know the Lord, for all will know the lord from the least up, perhaps something will dawn on these purporters.

Does it not stand to reason something is amiss with those who come in saying know the Lord, know the Lord? This post is an honest question, so keep it honest in response please.

john832 · Jan 7, 2014

Elin said:

Lemme see here...

Luk 17:21 nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Who was He speaking to?

Luk 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
Luk 17:21 nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

You mean these Pharisees?

Mat 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

The ones who shut up the Kingdom so that they did not go in nor did they allow anyone else to?

Mat 23:14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
Mat 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Mat 23:16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
Mat 23:17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
Mat 23:18 And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
Mat 23:19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?

Mat 23:33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
Mat 23:35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

The Kingdom of God was within these Pharisees?

Albert Barnes helps us here...

Is within you - This is capable of two interpretations.
1. The reign of God is “in the heart.” It does not come with pomp and splendor, like the reign of temporal kings, merely to control the external “actions” and strike the senses of people with awe, but it reigns in the heart by the law of God; it sets up its dominion over the passions, and brings every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.
2. It may mean the new dispensation is “even now among you.” The Messiah has come. John has ushered in the kingdom of God, and you are not to expect the appearance of the Messiah with great pomp and splendor, for he is now among you. Most critics at present incline to this latter interpretation. The ancient versions chiefly follow the former.

All in all, after reading Matthew 23, I have to conclude that the Kingdom of God was not inside the heart of the Pharisees, but rather the King of the Kingdom of God was standing among them.

JaumeJ · Jan 7, 2014

The Kingdom! It occurs to me, Jesus may well have been speaking of His own presence, since not all have the Kingdom in their hearts.............read some comparisons below if you will...............

Luk 17:21

(ASV)

neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

(CEV)

There is no use saying, 'Look! Here it is' or 'Look! There it is.' God's kingdom is here with you."

(Darby)

nor shall they say, Lo here, or, Lo there; for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.

(DRB)

Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there. For lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

(FDB)

et on ne dira pas: Voici, il est ici; ou, voilà, il est là. Car voici, le royaume de Dieu est au milieu de vous.

(FLS)

On ne dira point: Il est ici, ou: Il est là. Car voici, le royaume de Dieu est au milieu de vous.

(HNT)

ולא יאמרו הנה־פה או הנה־שם כי מלכות האלהים הנה בקרבכם׃

(INR)

"Eccolo qui", o "eccolo là"; perché, ecco, il regno di Dio è in mezzo a voi".

(IRL)

Eccolo qui, o eccolo là; perché ecco, il regno di Dio è dentro di voi.

(ISV)

People won't be saying, 'Look! Here it is!' or 'There it is!' because now the kingdom of God is among you."

(KJV)

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(KJV+)

Neither[SUP]G3761 shall they say,G2046 LoG2400 here!G5602 or,G2228 loG2400 there!G1563 for,G1063 behold,G2400 theG3588 kingdomG932 of GodG2316 isG2076 withinG1787 you.G5216 [/SUP]

[SUP]

(ROB)

Şi nici nu vor zice: Iat-o aici sau acolo. Căci, iată, împărăţia lui Dumnezeu este înăuntrul vostru.

(SSE)

ni dirán: Helo aquí, o helo allí; porque he aquí el Reino de Dios entre vosotros está.

(Vulgate)

neque dicent ecce hic aut ecce illic ecce enim regnum Dei intra vos est

(Webster)

Neither will they say, Lo here! or lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(WNT)

Nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' --for the Kingdom of God is within you."

[/SUP]בקרבכם

Historicist · Jan 7, 2014

danschance said:

The fourth commandment sabbath was never one and the same with the Old Covenant ceremonial sabbaths, this is proved by 1900 years of Christian history. The early church, the Protestant reformers, Charles H. Spurgeon, D. L. Moody and all evangelical leaders, until recent decades, did not try to reduce the Ten Commandments to nine. Why do you?

dcontroversal · Jan 7, 2014

Josh321 said:

The truth is, unless God makes it real/believable unto that person they will never understand. The rich man in Luke 16 while cooking in hell refused to believe that the preaching of the Law/Prophets could influence His brothers that he was worried about. Abraham said, they have the law and the prophets, but the rich man said, no it won't work and if one rose from the dead (Lazarus) they would believe. Abraham said in essence, if they won't receive the word of God they will not believe though one rose from the dead.

One did rise from the dead, Jesus, and untold numbers of unbelievers pour into hell daily because they cannot understand nor are they willing to understand, because men love darkness rather than the light!

Elin · Jan 7, 2014

Historicist said:

So you set John against Paul, who is not under the law (1Co 9:20). . .and thereby reveal your misunderstanding of Scripture.

And until you reconcile them, your understanding of Scripture remains faulty.

Historicist · Jan 7, 2014

JaumeJ said:

If people who throw around the term new covenant would look at what is written about it, how the truth is to be written on our inward parts on the flesh tablet of our heart, then continue to read how it will no longer be said, know the Lord, know the Lord, for all will know the lord from the least up, perhaps something will dawn on these purporters.

Does it not stand to reason something is amiss with those who come in saying know the Lord, know the Lord? This post is an honest question, so keep it honest in response please.

When Jesus prophesied: "I never knew you" (Matt. 7:23) it was in the context of lawlessness ("iniquity").

Attack of the Judaizers

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