Attack of the Judaizers

[john832]

I keep them, and strive to do more, but not for my salvation.

Do you? Do you keep them all? Including that pesky fourth one?

This is why you are lost. Because you believe your salvation is on your own effort in fulfilling the Law.

And you know this how? How is it that because I believe I should keep the Commandments, that I also believe I am saved BY keeping the Commandments and not by faith in Christ? How do you know this?

I follow the Law of God, and encourage others to do so, not out of fear of hell, but out of appreciation for heaven.
(and fear of God's discipline in this life)

Your lack of freedom is dependent on your enslavement to the Law, which all are freed from if they accept the sacrifice of Christ.

Hmmm, so not committing adultery, not killing, not stealing is a lack of freedom? I have never felt so free in my entire life. I am free of the consequences of committing adultery. Free of the consequences of killing. Free of hte consequences of stealing. If that is enslavement, then bring it on.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Notice what the Spirit frees us from, sin and death. It doesn't free us from obeying, it frees us from the consequences of disobedience, sin.

 

[LT]

RedTent and Elin, I don't think you guys are as different as you seem to think.
Each of you has said the same points, but just focus on a different side.
I have heard both of you say that we are saved by faith alone.
Both have said that the Law is useful, and instructive.
Both have said that we should seek to follow God.

The expression is just a bit different, because RedTent enjoys the traditions of the text, while understanding the Spiritual;
and Elin avoids the tradition, for the sake of clarifying where her faith lies.

Neither is wrong, as long as we don't push the other to copy us.

 

[Hizikyah]

None of that alters the text stating the New Covenant has made the Old (Sinaitic) Covenant obsolete (Heb 8:13).

One either believes the plain unequivocal NT word of God, or one does not.

Or one misunderstands it, and takes writing on the topic of the abolishment of the Levitical priesthood and transfer the Yahshua after the order of the Malak-Zadique and thinks that means no more Law of Yahweh, the Law that Messiah and Yahweh both say more than once WILL NEVER BE DONE AWAY.

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

 

[RedTent]

Those posters who believe that some scripture that God gave is superior to other words of our Lord, and not to be understood as the story of how God wants to redeem us, need to read the letters and beliefs of Constantine. He set up our modern church, Many of you, in this thread, are quoting him almost verbatim. His words, letters, and actions expressed so extremely what you are preaching that even you would be able to recognize how scripture tells us differently.

I went on to learn what went on at church councils for hundreds of years after Constantine to find that the influence of his theology was carried forward year after year. Even the change that Luther pioneered in the church didn't wipe it out. Posters on this thread are still preaching Constantine.

Constantine's life shows his understanding of God. He even murdered his wife.

 

[john832]

Criticism is too weak a word.

You've got some serious studying, reckoning and reconciling of Scripture to do.

I blieve your standard reply here is "non-responsive".

 

[john832]

The "it's now 2,000 years later" part.

And I guess you are also a preterist?

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

And the book of Revelation is fulfilled also?

 

[LT]

Do you? Do you keep them all? Including that pesky fourth one?

And you know this how? How is it that because I believe I should keep the Commandments, that I also believe I am saved BY keeping the Commandments and not by faith in Christ? How do you know this?

Hmmm, so not committing adultery, not killing, not stealing is a lack of freedom? I have never felt so free in my entire life. I am free of the consequences of committing adultery. Free of the consequences of killing. Free of hte consequences of stealing. If that is enslavement, then bring it on.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Notice what the Spirit frees us from, sin and death. It doesn't free us from obeying, it frees us from the consequences of disobedience, sin.

If you really need to know, I have faithfully kept the Sabbath (although on Sunday instead of the traditional Saturday) for the past two years.

I said what I said because you did claim faith plus works for salvation. If that was not your intent, then clarify. As of what you have said, if a person eats pork, they cannot be saved, and if they don't repent of thier pork eating, they will go to hell.

^Is this really what you believe? Because that is all I have taken from your words.
If not, be clear, and tell me how you divide the Law.

 

[john832]

Yeah. . .lemme see here. . .

"The kingdom does not come with observation" (v. 20); i.e., it is invisible. . .because "it is within you." (v. 21)

"You" here, as is common, is in the general sense, it is not specific to the Pharisees.

"You" here was spoken to the group that was present...

Luk 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;

Who is the antecedant of them? The Pharisees.

Luk 17:21 nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Who is He still speaking to? The Pharisees.

You are twisting scripture here and it is obvious.

 

[Hizikyah]

If you really need to know, I have faithfully kept the Sabbath (although on Sunday instead of the traditional Saturday) for the past two years.

I said what I said because you did claim faith plus works for salvation. If that was not your intent, then clarify. As of what you have said, if a person eats pork, they cannot be saved, and if they don't repent of thier pork eating, they will go to hell.

^Is this really what you believe? Because that is all I have taken from your words.
If not, be clear, and tell me how you divide the Law.

WHAT? Is this Sunday not 7th day serious or a joke?

How can you follow a Commandment by not following it? Not ONE SINGLE place in Scripture is anyone told to keep Sunday/

“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

Exodus 31:13, "Speak also to the children of Israyl, saying; Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for they are a *sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am Yahweh
Who sanctifies you, and makes you holy."

*sign=Word #226, Hebrew Dictionary,Strong's Exhaustive Concordance,
meaning mark, token, sign, consent, flag, evidence of consent.

“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons

Ezekiyl 20:12, "Moreover, I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am Yahweh Who sanctifies them."

“Protestants...accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change...But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that...In observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.” Our Sunday Visitor, February 15, 1950.

“Sunday is founded, not of scripture, but on tradition, and is distinctly a Catholic institution. As there is no scripture for the transfer of the day of rest from the last to the first day of the week, Protestants ought to keep their Sabbath on Saturday and thus leave Catholics in full possession of Sunday.” Catholic Record, September 17, 1893.

“It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible.” Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Magazine, USA (1975), Chicago, Illinois, “Under the blessing of the Pope Pius XI”

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."
"Times" is word # 2166 - Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar - 1) a set time, time, season

Daniyl 8:12, "And a host was given him against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and succeeded."

 

[LT]

They both avoid my questions. I have not received a single answer when I ask a question. They only argue over a single word, or deflect to a new topic.

There is no one learning here. There are just scoffers.

 

[john832]

If you really need to know, I have faithfully kept the Sabbath (although on Sunday instead of the traditional Saturday) for the past two years.

Sunday is not, has not been nor ever will be the Sabbath.

I said what I said because you did claim faith plus works for salvation. If that was not your intent, then clarify. As of what you have said, if a person eats pork, they cannot be saved, and if they don't repent of thier pork eating, they will go to hell.

Whoa young fella, let's get this straight, I claimed no such thing, James the Lord's brother makes this claim...

Jas 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
Jas 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
Jas 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Your argument is with James and his book in the Holy Bible, not with me.

^Is this really what you believe? Because that is all I have taken from your words.
If not, be clear, and tell me how you divide the Law.

Why divide the Law? I believe I should obey the Law. I believe that the gift of eternal life is just that, a gift that I can NEVER earn, but I also believe that gift is not given to unrepentant, evil Commandment breakers who murder, commit adultery, lie, steal and cheat. Do you?

 

[jag1977]

There are no sides in spiritual nourishment. Our meat is ours. It fulfills us. No law means I don't have to chose a side. I have the main course and it pleases my life. All others are covered by the Lord and the Lord is your God.

 

[john832]

They both avoid my questions. I have not received a single answer when I ask a question. They only argue over a single word, or deflect to a new topic.

There is no one learning here. There are just scoffers.

Hmmm, I have.

 

[LT]

Sunday is not, has not been nor ever will be the Sabbath.



Whoa young fella, let's get this straight, I claimed no such thing, James the Lord's brother makes this claim...

Jas 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
Jas 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
Jas 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Your argument is with James and his book in the Holy Bible, not with me.



Why divide the Law? I believe I should obey the Law. I believe that the gift of eternal life is just that, a gift that I can NEVER earn, but I also believe that gift is not given to unrepentant, evil Commandment breakers who murder, commit adultery, lie, steal and cheat. Do you?

I am not talking about lying or adultery. I am asking about pork.

 

[Hizikyah]

They both avoid my questions. I have not received a single answer when I ask a question. They only argue over a single word, or deflect to a new topic.

Uhh, I have 2 recent posts that have not so much as received a peep.

The questions you asked him had to do with you convo, I read the "I keep Sunday Sabbath" and was uncertain if this was serious or a joke. SO I asked, and supplied some info.

How can you say I didnt answer your question when it was pointed at another persons comments?

 

[john832]

There are no sides in spiritual nourishment. Our meat is ours. It fulfills us. No law means I don't have to chose a side. I have the main course and it pleases my life. All others are covered by the Lord and the Lord is your God.

No Law means your life is not worth squat on 42nd street at 2:00am. Care to rethink that?

 

[jag1977]

It's worth everything to me. It worth nothing to the Lord. My soul is FREE.

 

[LT]

Uhh, I have 2 recent posts that have not so much as received a peep.

The questions you asked him had to do with you convo, I read the "I keep Sunday Sabbath" and was uncertain if this was serious or a joke. SO I asked, and supplied some info.

How can you say I didnt answer your question when it was pointed at another persons comments?

Well, I asked about eating pork. I did not ask about the Sabbath.

 

[Hizikyah]

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

 

[john832]

I am not talking about lying or adultery. I am asking about pork.

Uh, which Commandment is that?

But since you asked...

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Ti 4:2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
1Ti 4:5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Now where do we find meats set apart (sanctified) in God's Word?

Lev 11:1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them,
Lev 11:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying, 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth:

Deu 14:3 "You shall not eat any detestable thing.

Now first of all, notice who it is that is speaking? The LORD, the one who became Jesus Christ. As I have asked before, did He just decide "Oops, my bad. I think I'll just change my mind here?"

Do you suppose that you know more about what fuel you should put into the human body than the Designer and Creator?