Attack of the Judaizers

[Hizikyah]

I have been doing a study with RedTent. I have come to the conclusion that the Laws pertaining to the Theocracy (governmental justice/societal decrees/ceremonial laws/sacrificial system) were for the Israelites only, and only for the time of the Theocracy, and never had to do with salvation, but healthy and righteous living. When God left the Temple, before the deportation to Babylon, the Theocracy was gone, because the Sinai Covenant was broken by the people of Israel.

The Theocratic Laws never had to do with salvation, but always had to do with how God wanted his chosen people to live. This lifestyle was not always directly 'righteous' but always reminded people to be righteous.

Why were they suppose to leave the corners of their beard untrimmed? to remind them to leave the edges of their field unharvested, so the poor could come and gather the excess!

Salvation was always by faith alone: faith that God would forgive, and would save. Faith is always shown by faithfulness to the directions of the one you have faith in. If I have faith in the instruction manual for building an airplane, I do what the instructions say for how to build it!
The laws were always a guide.
If we neglect the Law, then we neglect Law-giver who is also the one who grants salvation. If we put our faith in the Law, then we are trusting the creation instead of the Creator.

The Law didn't save the Jews. Sacrifice didn't save the Jews.
Faith in God saved the Jews. Doing what God says displays faith.

In the New Covenant, we can shave the corners of our beards, because that command was to the Theocratic society of Israel, not to us. However, we should obey the Spirit of that Law, which is to be generous to the poor.

A study with the Scrptures will show Yahweh;s Law is for all races and all that accept Messiah are Israylites now anyway:

Numbers 15:15-16, "One ordinance shall be for you of the congregation, and for the stranger who sojourns with you, as an ordinance forever throughout your generations. As you are, so shall the stranger be in front of Yahweh. One Law and one manner shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you."

Exodus 12:48-49, "And when a stranger lives among you and wants to sacrifice the Passover to Yahweh, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near, and sacrifice it; and he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. One Law shall be for the nativeborn and for the stranger who dwells among you."

Isayah 56:1-7, "This is what Yahweh says: Keep the judgments, and do justly; for My salvation is near, soon, to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them; and keeps his hand from doing dany evil. Do not let the son of the Gentile, who has joined himself to Yahweh, speak, saying; Yahweh has utterly separated me from His people. Nor let the eunuch say; Behold, I am a dry tree. For this is what Yahweh says: To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose those things which please Me, and hold fast to My covenant: I will give to them, in My House, even within My walls, a place and a Name equal to that of sons and of daughters; I will give them the Name of The Everlasting: YAHWEH; which will not be cut off. Also the sons of the Gentile who join themselves to Yahweh, to serve Him, and to love the Name of Yahweh, to be His servants--everyone who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them and who holds fast to My covenant--I will bring them to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My House of prayer..."

Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is Yahweh our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."

Galations 3:28,29, "Is there not the Yahdai as well as the Greek; Gentile? Is there not the slave as well as the freeman? Is there not the male and the female? For all of you must be in unity in Yahshua Messiah. And if you are in Messiah, then you are a seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise."

Psalam 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."

 

[Hizikyah]

Psalam 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

 

[LT]

Psalam 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Psalm 89 refers to the Davidic Covenant, not the Sinai Covenant. The line of David, and the seed of David points to the 2nd Covenant, not the 1st.
Christ is the one from David's line, eternal on the throne.

Saying that the Law will remain unchanged until the end doesn't mean that it is all relative by form of direct command.

We as Believers are spiritual Israel, but we do not live in the Theocracy of physical Israel.
Remember that Daniel was never able to offer sacrifices at the Temple, not able to celebrate all the Feasts, not able to fulfill his legal obligations as an Israelite, but was considered righteous.
The governmental, ceremonial, societal, and sacrificial laws are not applicable(directly) to us, because the New Jerusalem has not yet come, and God's glory has not returned after it departed from the Temple, and ascended from the Mount of Olives in Ezekiel 10-11.

 

[just-me]

It's nice to see that there has been no controversy on this thread for over 3 hours.

 

[LT]

controversy must have been sleeping.
shhhh
or we might wake him

 

[psychomom]

Hebrews 4:9 KJV
(9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Hebrews 4:9 confirms that the 7th day sabbath remains it is not done away.

I see folks quoting Heb. 4 without looking at chapter 3.
I ask you all to forgive the length of this post; I post it all so you won't have to look it up.

Heb. 3:12-19
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, while it is said,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”

For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.


Heb 4:1-11
Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

The disobedience spoken of here seems (to me, at least ) to be the sin of unbelief.
"the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard."

This is a warning to not follow those who died in the wilderness because they did not believe the good news they were told.
Who is "the one who has entered His rest"?
The one who has believed God, specifically the Gospel (good news!).

 

[psychomom]

I hope my words aren't too controversial. ♥

 

[just-me]

For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

The disobedience spoken of here seems (to me, at least ) to be the sin of unbelief.
"the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard."

This is a warning to not follow those who died in the wilderness because they did not believe the good news they were told.
Who is "the one who has entered His rest"?
The one who has believed God, specifically the Gospel (good news!).

Good points you have made. The Sabbath rest was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Entering into the rest of God is to stop with our own works that has no faith, and having works by faith. If a particular day is defined as the Sabbath, we are missing the entire point of its Spiritual significance. Bless your heart sis.

 

[Josh321]

[h=3]Mark 2:26-28[/h]King James Version (KJV)

26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

 

[Elin]

You are pounding a square peg in a round hole.

First off, you are separating the 10 commandments from the Mosaic laws. There is not a single scripture that allows you to do this.

I see it a different way.

What matters is how Scripture sees it, and that is not how God's laws are presented in Scripture.

God wrote the 10 Commandment on stone with His finger He then gave the stones to Moses so would that not make it God's law given to Moses to carry down the mountain and not Moses's law. Moses was just the carrier and messenger not the author.. God was the author so it is God's law and not Moses.

None of God's laws are Moses' laws.

Where did you get this erroneous dichotomy?

Only because God gave them to Moses for Israel, are they called Mosaic laws,
as distinct from other OT laws God gave, such as to Abraham in Ge 17:1 and Ge 17:10-11 (circumcision).

It's not complicated.

Let's not divide what God has joined in his laws.

 

[Elin]

The Decalogue or 10 commandments were the basis for all the 600 or 700 laws the Jews created from them which Jesus called the tradition of the elders. The Jews never could keep the 10 and outside of the action of the Holy Spirit on our lives we cant either. Paul said the letter of the law killeth but the spirit of the law gives life. Thank God Jesus fulfilled the law and we are under grace, but
His law written on our hearts brings us into obedience as we grow in Him.

Accuracy police: the letter (not the letter of the law) killeth, the Spirit (not the spirit of the law) gives life.

The letter is the law, and the spirit is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Elin]

I posted a verse that is Shaul speaking not me, and no that is not what it is saying.

Its saying the fleshly minded people can not subject themselves to Yahweh's Law.

Originally Posted by Hizikyah

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; bitterly opposed to, Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

It is saying the unregenerate (not born again, no Holy Spirit life) cannot submit to God's law,
they are spiritually powerless.

 

[Elin]

The torah that is supposed to be written on peoples hearts is 613+ Laws, the oral law created by Jews/rabbis/pharisees has 1,000s of made up laws.

Yeremyah 31:33, "After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; minds, and I will be their Father, and they will be My people."

8451. torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah
Phonetic Spelling: (to-raw') Short Definition: law

No sir.

It is the Ten Commandments, the basis of the Sinatic Covenant, which they broke, that is written on hearts.

 

[just-me]

What matters is how Scripture sees it, and that is not how God's laws are presented in Scripture.


None of God's laws are Moses' laws.

Where did you get this erroneous dichotomy?

Only because God gave them to Moses for Israel, are they called Mosaic laws,
as distinct from other OT laws God gave, such as to Abraham in Ge 17:1 and Ge 17:10-11 (circumcision).

It's not complicated.

Let's not divide what God has joined in his laws.

I haven't read any place in scripture that Moses was given laws differing from God's laws. Do you have scripture that says Moses wrote laws down that were not from God?

 

[Elin]

Scripture blends obedience and mercy:

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, in conformity with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

According to the NT word of God, the law of God is the law of Christ (1Co 9:21), which is Mt 22:37-39, which performs the whole law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:10; Gal 5:6), and is written on hearts.

 

[Elin]

I have been doing a study with RedTent. I have come to the conclusion that the Laws pertaining to the Theocracy (governmental justice/societal decrees/ceremonial laws/sacrificial system) were for the Israelites only, and only for the time of the Theocracy, and never had to do with salvation, but healthy and righteous living

That is a Judaizing gloss, the food laws were not about health, but holiness.

They were regulations of defilement, as in other defilement regulations, to teach the meaning
of spiritual defilement and holiness, as separation from spiritual defilement.

We know they were not about health because God gave mankind everything that lives and moves for food in Ge 9:3, and the NT goes back to that standard (Mk 7:19; Ro 14:14; 1Tim 4:3-5; Heb 9:9-10; Col 2:16-17).

There is no Biblical basis for the Mosaic food laws as prescriptions for health,
in light of Ge 9:3 and Mk 7:19, etc.

 

[john832]

That is a Judaizing gloss, the food laws were not about health, but holiness.
They were regulations of defilement, as in other defilement regulations, to teach the meaning of spiritual defilement and holiness, as separation from spiritual defilement.

And what is your basis for a holiness interpretation in this passage?

Gen 7:1 Then the LORD said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.
Gen 7:2 You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;

There is not instruction about holiness here. In fact, there is no instruction about what clean and unclean is. It was well known at that time.

 

[Elin]

A study with the Scrptures will show Yahweh;s Law is for all races and all that accept Messiah are Israylites now anyway:

Not according to the NT.

God gave the Mosaic laws to Israel as the basis for the Sinaitic Covenant, not to all races.

God has now made the Sinaitic Covenent obsolete (Heb 8:13),
having replaced it with the New Covenant (Lk 22:20), and
has set aside the Mosaic law (Heb 7:18-19) in the change of the priesthood (Heb 7:12)
on which it was based (Heb 7:11),
in fulfillment of his promise in Ps 110:4 (Heb 7:17, 21).

That is the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers.

 

[Elin]

It's nice to see that there has been no controversy on this thread for over 3 hours.

I'll bet we can fix that. . .

 

[Elin]

I hope my words aren't too controversial. ♥

Christ's words were, and we are not above our Master.

Paul's words were, and he was not above his Master.