Attack of the Judaizers

[LT]

I saw in your reference, LT, someone has gone so far as to declare Jews cannot be saved. That declaration is grave and a pity.



Rom 11:17
Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18
do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Rom 11:19
Then you will say, "Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in."

wow. I am floored.
Who would say such a terrible thing?! Was it in this thread?

 

[JesusLives]

Or a biblical quote where clean animals were for sacrifice before the flood?
Even if clean animals were for sacrifice, ever wonder why God calls them clean and accepts them and why God calls the other animals unclean and does not accept them?

Genesis 4:2 Says that Abel took care of sheep and Genesis 4:4 Says Abel brought the firstborn of his flock for a sacrifice. Sheep are a clean animal. Lists of clean and unclean animals are given in book of Leviticus.

If you take a hard look at unclean animals most all the time they are the garbage cleaners of the earth. Pigs, vultures, shrimp just a few examples - a pig will eat anything, vultures clean up road kill or any other dead thing, and shrimp are bottom feeders cleaning up the ocean. Hope that helps a little with the wondering.

 

[Elin]

1 Corinthians 2:9, "But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which Yahweh has prepared for those who love Him."

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

Deuteronomy 10:12-13, "And now, O Israyl, what does Yahweh your Father require of you, but to reverence Yahweh your Father by walking in all His ways, by loving Him, by serving Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul. By keeping the Laws of Yahweh, with His statutes, which I command you this day, so that you may be blessed?"

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Mattithyah 22:37, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."

Yahchanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Yep. . .and Christ Jesus' commandments are two, which are the law of God and Christ (1Co 9:21),
and which, in obeying, fulfill (perform) the whole law (Mt 22:37-40).

Just can't get around the simple law of Christ.

 

[RedTent]

We don't still do animal sacrifice to remind us of the spiritual meaning of Christ's atonement,

nor do we still sprinkle with blood, nor do we still mix cleansing water in which to wash away defilement,
to remind us of the spiritual meaning of the cleansing power of faith in Christ's blood (Ro 3:25),

nor observe Passover to remind us of the spiritual meaning of the lamb slain from
the foundation of the world,

nor. . .etc., etc., etc.

Why this one specific practice, counter to the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days
(Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers in Heb 9:10; Ro 14:14; etc., to remind you
of the spiritual meaning of the copies, shadows and patterns (Heb 8:5)?

Are you sure it's about "reminders," rather than about preferring one's own way
above the way God has ordained for the NT order (Heb 9:10)
in Ro 14:14; 1Tim 3:4-5; 1Co 8:8; Col 2:16-17; Mk 7:19?

Are you sure it's not about will worship (Col 2:22-23)
and turning back to dead, miserable, worldly forms of religion
which do not come from the new creation (Gal 4:8-11; Col 2:8, 17, 20; Heb 10:1),
and, therefore, are worldly (Gal 4:3) because they are authorized by man only,
and not by God's new order (Heb 9:10)?

If you read scripture you read and know what Christ replaced. If we use the blood of animals we are not using the correct blood. And to say that all that God taught, even when God said to use the blood of animals before Christ was crucified is "dead, miserable, and unworthy is actually saying that Christ, who is one with God is dead, miserable and unworthy. I have heard people who preach as you do even say that the shadow of Christ that God gave to the world was to be tossed away and not read. It is like seeing a beautiful tree and saying we can look at the tree but never see the shadow of that tree. Christ is that beauty, we are not to belittle even the shadow of that beauty.

And that you can go into my mind and heart and know it better than I or God can know it is very presumptuous. It is more than judgmental, it is wrong all the way. I said why I was kosher, and you are calling me a liar, besides judging me. On a forum devoted to God.

 

[Mastersman]

Hebrews 10:4 states" For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." The Old Testament system of sacrifices pointed to what was coming in the future, the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ for remission of all sins. Jesus said from the cross " It is finished". When He said this it was a done deal. The ball is now in our court, either reject or accept Him. He is all we need for salvation and for life, nothing else!

 

[JaumeJ]

I will have to rescind what I posted about you referrencing because I do not see it here. I did read it, but it must have been elsewhere. `The scripture stands though because it is true.

wow. I am floored.
Who would say such a terrible thing?! Was it in this thread?

 

[LT]

I will have to rescind what I posted about you referrencing because I do not see it here. I did read it, but it must have been elsewhere. `The scripture stands though because it is true.

No problem. I'm just glad to know that it was none of these here!

 

[JaumeJ]

Here is a good supposition. Suppose a person is saved by the grace of the Blood of Yeshua, Jesus. That person is so joyous, and so grateful to experience the Love of Yahweh for the first time ever he determines to be as much like Yeshua as is humanly possible, knowing all the true work has already been done for him by Jesus on the cross. After all, we are to follow His Example.

Will anyone be so miserable as to fault that person, simply because he wants to please the One Who lived and died suffering the most awful death just so he would be saved. He knows he cannot be Jesus, but he can be as much like Him as is humanyly possible because he loves His Savior. I believe this is reasonable, So it goes for all those who believe being good, as good as humanly possible, means to obey the commandments as best possible.....the commandments I say.

 

[chubbena]

It is not a problem for Jews to follow the traditions of the Law, because they have made that commitment.
The problem comes when Jews try to impose the Law on Gentile believers.
That is "trying to make Jews out of the Gentiles in the name of Christ. It is false religion, and a false gospel!"

The Gentiles do not need to follow the sacrificial laws, the societal laws, the governmental laws, etc; but are still called to follow the spirit of those laws.

For Jews, if their conscience requires them to continue in the traditions, then they must obey. It would be a sin for them to reject their God-given conscience!

I don't see Jews trying to impose the law on gentile believers or "law keepers" trying to impose the law on others. Most on this forum are passively responding to accusations such as this thread and in responding, stating their understanding.
On the other hand I see many mixing traditions (Judaism) with the law and with what Paul said about "worthless elementary principle of the world" and "hollow and deceptive philosophy which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world".
Thus I don't agree with your last point i.e. if their (Jews) conscience requires them to continue in the traditions, then they must obey. It's always the traditions Christ spoke against, not the law.

 

[LT]

I don't see Jews trying to impose the law on gentile believers or "law keepers" trying to impose the law on others. Most on this forum are passively responding to accusations such as this thread and in responding, stating their understanding.
On the other hand I see many mixing traditions (Judaism) with the law and with what Paul said about "worthless elementary principle of the world" and "hollow and deceptive philosophy which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world".
Thus I don't agree with your last point i.e. if their (Jews) conscience requires them to continue in the traditions, then they must obey. It's always the traditions Christ spoke against, not the law.

Do you celebrate Christmas? Easter? Independence Day? Thanksgiving?

Then let them follow their feasts as well.
------------
The only problem is when people connect observance of the customs and traditions (including circumcision and Sabbath) to salvation.
I don't think anyone here has openly done this.

 

[Elin]

Romans 2?

Romans 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law,
and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law"

Jews only?

Jews only were under the Law.

Gentiles were not under the Law, and sinned against their consciences, not the Law.

Numbers 15:15-16, "One ordinance shall be for you of the congregation, and for the stranger who sojourns with you, as an ordinance forever throughout your generations. As you are, so shall the stranger be in front of Yahweh. One Law and one manner shall be for you and for the stranger
who sojourns with you."

Exodus 12:48-49, "And when a stranger lives among you and wants to sacrifice the Passover to Yahweh, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near, and sacrifice it; and he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. One Law shall be for the nativeborn and for the stranger who dwells among you."

Isayah 56:1-7, "This is what Yahweh says: Keep the judgments, and do justly; for My salvation is near, soon, to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them; and keeps his hand from doing dany evil. Do not let the son of the Gentile, who has joined himself to Yahweh, speak, saying; Yahweh has utterly separated me from His people. Nor let the eunuch say; Behold, I am a dry tree. For this is what Yahweh says: To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose those things which please Me, and hold fast to My covenant: I will give to them, in My House, even within My walls, a place and a Name equal to that of sons and of daughters; I will give them the Name of The Everlasting: YAHWEH; which will not be cut off. Also the sons of the Gentile who join themselves to Yahweh, to serve Him, and to love the Name of Yahweh, to be His servants--everyone who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them and who holds fast to My covenant--I will bring them to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My House of prayer..."

You know full well these do not refer to all Gentiles.

Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

The promise (Ge 3:15, 12:3b, 18:18, 22:18, 26:4bk, 28:14b; Ac 3:25; Gal 3:8)
is Christ, and all those who believe in Christ are Abraham's seed.

Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is Yahweh our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl
for an everlasting covenant."

And the Abrahamic covenant, now fulfilled in the New Covenant, stands as an everlasting covenant with all those who believe in the Son of God.

Galations 3:28,29, "Is there not the Yahdai as well as the Greek; Gentile? Is there not the slave as well as the freeman? Is there not the male and the female? For all of you must be in unity in Yahshua Messiah. And if you are in Messiah, then
you are a seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise."

Psalam 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun.
His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."

And David's Seed, Christ Jesus, endures forever, seated on the the throne of David forever, now ruling and reigning at the right hand of God.

We're on the same page in all of these, right?

 

[chubbena]

Genesis 4:2 Says that Abel took care of sheep and Genesis 4:4 Says Abel brought the firstborn of his flock for a sacrifice. Sheep are a clean animal. Lists of clean and unclean animals are given in book of Leviticus.

If you take a hard look at unclean animals most all the time they are the garbage cleaners of the earth. Pigs, vultures, shrimp just a few examples - a pig will eat anything, vultures clean up road kill or any other dead thing, and shrimp are bottom feeders cleaning up the ocean. Hope that helps a little with the wondering.

My post was responding to

Can you please show a biblical quote where man ate meat before the flood of Noah. The 7 clean animals were for sacrafrice can you show any different?

My point is, clean animals are NOT SOLELY for sacrifices after the flood. Noah knew what's clean and what's not clean before the flood and when God said he and his family could eat all that's moving, he would not have picked the unclean.

 

[RedTent]

I don't see Jews trying to impose the law on gentile believers or "law keepers" trying to impose the law on others. Most on this forum are passively responding to accusations such as this thread and in responding, stating their understanding.
On the other hand I see many mixing traditions (Judaism) with the law and with what Paul said about "worthless elementary principle of the world" and "hollow and deceptive philosophy which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world".
Thus I don't agree with your last point i.e. if their (Jews) conscience requires them to continue in the traditions, then they must obey. It's always the traditions Christ spoke against, not the law.

No scripture speaks against traditions as a physical path to the spiritual truth. It is man that does that. Scripture speaks against physical doing as an end in itself, as a means of salvation. Man will scream if anyone speaks against the Christmas tradition, a means most Christians use to celebrate Christ. It is purely man made, there is no scripture for it. There probably is no wrong in it. Yet he will throw stones at anyone who uses a physical doing that God suggested to use as a reminder of a spiritual truth. I think that man just likes the sin of judging others and glories in it. Tell them not to do it, and they defend their right to it as if their life depended on this sin of theirs. Scripture says that sin can even prevent Christ from being able to forgive them, and that they will be judged as they judge others. It is a serious sin.

 

[Elin]

common fable is that the pharisees kept Yahweh's Law but did it without love

Fable, indeed!

 

[Elin]

so sacrifice truth to make the masses happy? stop using the name of Yahweh on your command?

Sacrificing what truth?

No, just stop acting like one language is superior to another.

God didn't say that.
Jesus didn't say that.
The apostles wrote the NT in Greek.

God mentions no preference of one language over another.
We speak English here.
Stop insulting our language.

 

[Elin]

You are not the only one quoting "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you" and many have already answered that
God told Noah to bring 7 pairs of every clean animal and 1 pair of every unclean animal into the ark - and Noah did exactly what he was told.
Absurd reasoning?

Yes. . .in addition to being a ridiculous exegetical leap.

You have no basis for stating what God's reason was there.

No doubt pig is a great pet - you could feed it with anything and it won't get sick. It simply would generate enough fat to bury any poisonous material.

God gave it for food (Ge 9:3).

Take it up with him.

 

[LT]

Fable, indeed!

well, Paul did say that he had followed the Law, but still needed Christ. There is more to it than just a fable I think...
The Pharisees were definitely guilty of pride (praying loudly from the street corners, using small change when giving an offering so it would ring loudly in the offering plate), and which Law deals with the sin of pride?

I think Jesus made it clear that God's Law is all against pride, and all for love.
All the individual commands reinforce this.

 

[JaumeJ]

Yahweh does not have any desire to kill anyone, but as long as His creatures call Him a liar, they just cannot approach Him. This is what people are doing in effect if after knowing the Gospel, and I mean knowing it, they refuse to believe it.

I thought about it. I deserve death, but my Father does not want to kill me. I believe Him though to my shame it took making His Only Begotten Son payment for my sin. God is good all of the time, people are not.

 

[chubbena]

Do you celebrate Christmas? Easter? Independence Day? Thanksgiving?

Then let them follow their feasts as well.
------------
The only problem is when people connect observance of the customs and traditions (including circumcision and Sabbath) to salvation.
I don't think anyone here has openly done this.

No I don't celebrate Christmas or Easter for there are much falsehood in them. Thought I talked about Christmas with you somewhere - I was Roman Catholic.
Nevertheless, I celebrate the essence of Passover every so often.
Independence day? Nope. I'm not American but I do respect Americans celebrating that day and I don't see any religious falsehood on that day.
Thanksgiving? Good question. Yours are on a different day. I think it's good to celebrate on my day and equally good for you to celebrate on your day.
I never connect circumcision and Sabbath to salvation. I understand even in OT circumcision was about the heart. I understand even in OT Sabbath was about physical rest.
That said, I'm afraid someone will ignore my statement here and keep accusing me of what I'm not.

 

[LT]

Sacrificing what truth?

No, just stop acting like one language is superior to another.

God didn't say that.
Jesus didn't say that.
The apostles wrote the NT in Greek.

God mentions no preference of one language over another.
We speak English here.
Stop insulting our language.

don't be so easily offended Elin.

You know I side with you on this topic, but I beg you to be more moderate.
Strong's Greek 1933 (gentle, merciful in making judgements and meek in receiving judgement).

Hiz is not a bad guy. He is a brother.
Even in the disagreement, remember to also regularly agree with each other on Christ (agree in the Lord), even in the middle of an argument.
This is to remind each other of the true importance: CHRIST.