Attack of the Judaizers

[Elin]

No, stop using hebrew when the greek it was originally in has been translated to english. Why do you post if it isn't so that you can be perfectly understood? You are dabbling in confusion, and you know what the bible says about that.

YHWH and Yahshua are not in the original NT writings.

Theos and Christos are.

The apostolic writings do not need to be improved.

 

[Elin]

it was originally Greek? that's news to me!! then translated to English? Are ya skippin a few languages there Buddy?

The NT was written in Greek, which has been translated into English in many translations.

The OT was translated into Greek several hundred years before the birth of Christ, and was the translation used in his day.

 

[Elin]

There is more evidence than what is referenced. This just to name a few sources. It may not be generally agreed upon, however one day perhaps we will know. I believe it was originally Hebrew.

A study of the writings of the Christian "Church Fathers" shows that much of the "New Testament" was written in Hebrew. This includes direct statements made by; Papias, Ireneus, Origin, Eusubius, Epiphaneus, Jerome and Clement of Alexandria.

4. The prominent first century historian Josephus wrote in both his books, Antiquities and Wars, that Hebrew was the language of first century Jews and that they did not know Greek. (In fact there is a Jewish tradition saying it is better to eat swine than learn Greek.)
5. Modern linguistics (thanks to the input of cognisant Messianic Jewish and gentile scholars) shows that the text themselves don't lend to an "original Greek" translation. A very good book you want to get with dozens of examples is, The Semitic Origin of the New Testament, by James Trimm. This can be ordered via www.nazarene.net. Also recommended is the Hebrew/Aramaic New TestamentResearch Institute at www.nazarene.net/hantri/
6. Other books, such as The Jewish New Testament, by David Stern are also helpful in showing the Hebrew thought that gets lost in the Greek/English. (The latter can be ordered through Amazon.com.)

Are we saying anything material has been lost?

If not, it is of little conseqence.

 

[Elin]

I also have read that with the information the deep sea scrolls opened up there is more reason to believe even lots of the New Testament was originally in Hebrew.

More important, I think, is understanding the change that was happening in the world between the greek thinking that Alexander the Great ushered in, and the difference it made in understanding from Hebrew thinking. Greek thinking was called Hellenism. A lot of misunderstanding of the OT is due to
our not understanding the way Hebrew thought was, we are so immersed in our way of thinking.

The only thing of consequence is whether the differences are material.

 

[Josh321]

That is very presumptuous to say those who love Torah and Messiah are in the wrong. Messiah kept Torah and taught it. We are governed by thousands of man made laws. And you say forget Torah? Torah is love Yahuah Almighty and love our neighbor. That is Torah. 10 Words. Not hard. That's what it means to walk in His ways.

What makes no sense is to say love Messiah, hate Torah. Messiah wrote Torah.

the fact that your trying to be justified by it... says alot, and you ignored all the main points as usually to say something completely different i can prove my sayings by the bible that what i said is the truth, we not suppose to be " trying " anything suppose to live a natural christian life through the holy spirit, that is what the new testament is... i'm not trying to be rude but separate yourself.. from whatever denomination you might be in and see if God doesn't reveal himself to you God does not like denominations if your under a " religion" instead of christ you won't know what is right from wrong

 

[Elin]

o.k. again we agree to disagree in the food issue, however, you say the new law 2 (NT) is Love God and love fellow man...
I just gotta say here I'm not feeling the love.

I love your passion to prove a point and believe it or not I love you as a sister in Christ. We are not all on the same level of learning and understanding and I am so thankful that God is our judge.

Okay, Sis, I probably should address this, for everyone's sake here.

My heart also worships the Father
at the feet of Christ
in the Holy Spirit.

But true faith is more than just heart felt.
I suspect all those Muslims working havoc in the Middle East have a heart-felt faith.

True faith must be informed with Truth.
So Truth is just as important as heart-feltness.

In this forum, my focus is basically NT Truth.
So I will be demonstrating what is not in conformity with NT Truth.

But that doesn't mean my faith is any less heart-felt,
nor that I love the brethren any less.

Ka-peesch?

 

[Elin]

well, Paul did say that he had followed the Law, but still needed Christ.

To what are you referring?

 

[just-me]

the fact that your trying to be justified by it... says alot, and you ignored all the main points as usually to say something completely different i can prove my sayings by the bible that what i said is the truth, we not suppose to be " trying " anything suppose to live a natural christian life through the holy spirit, that is what the new testament is... i'm not trying to be rude but separate yourself.. from whatever denomination you might be in and see if God doesn't reveal himself to you God does not like denominations if your under a " religion" instead of christ you won't know what is right from wrong

Do you really think that she has said that we are justified without faith? I can't agree with your assumptions saying they are fact. If you can find that she is denying faith in anything that she has posted, please enlighten us all to this pagan exhortation she is presenting, by throwing faith to the wind.

 

[Historicist]

LT, your response to my post on who wrote Hebrews is very dogmatic, uses no scripture whatsoever to support your claims. Then, in your desperation to prove me wrong, you resort to the smear of "anti-Semitism. I realize that you are a mere 18 years old but, surely, you can do better than name calling.

 

[Bazman]

Jesus is our Sabbath Rest

Interesting link to anyone who wants to read. For those who keep the Sabbath this might give you an insight as to why I don't. I don't keep Sunday either as a Sabbath. I go to Church on Sunday to remember Christ's resurrection and to partake in the Lord's Supper. The command to keep the Lord's supper is there but obviously as many Saturday worshippers will say there is no command to keep the Sunday.

Also, do you know something there are people who believe that if you take a lunar calendar that the First day of a lunar month ie when the new moon starts is a Sabbath and then you count 7 days from that as the following Sabbaths in the month. Here is a thought as there is 29 and half days of a Lunar cycle then some lunar months would have 29 or 30 days neither divisible by 7 would mean that the Sabbath day would fall not always on Saturday just saying infact I looked at this year's lunar cycle and I think in some months even Sunday would be called their Sabbath as well as Monday etc. I think Saturday does fall as Sabbath some months. Check it out. Oh there is so much in this area. Praise God that God doesn't hold us accountable on this.

But I am sure there will be some who will tell me otherwise. Like I say I am very open in this area as for discussion but let's keep it civil. After all let us not judge as per Romans 14.

 

[Elin]

the Mosaic Law had ceremonial laws and moral laws. I don't think anyone is in disagreement that
the Moral Laws were always and will always be in place ie adultery is wrong no matter what and to say that Jesus did away with that would be ludicrous.

The thing is mentioned over and over again in the New Testament is the Ceremenoial part of the law should not be imposed on Gentiles.
Colossians 2 16-17 - 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

So when we are told to keep God's commandments in the New Testament these are the Moral Laws plus Baptism and the Lord's supper.

Testament means - Covenant - Contract. Ie two contracts for 2 different situations

Hebrews 7:12 - For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

So to me if there is a change in the Priesthood there is a change in the Law. Paul recognised this when he said that the weaker brother was keeping days, and the dietary law...

Romans 14
v1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.

v5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

"Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister." (Ro 14:13)

the aim is to love not to have arguments over things which now don't matter in the New Covenant. See what Paul says in Galatians.

Galatians 4 10-11
10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

See how he says I fear for you... He is concerned that they are trying to keep the Mosaic Ceremonial Law
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value.
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

This is as plain as day I don't see why we try and twist God's word when he would not make it complicated.

the key to the whole law is to Love God and Love others - moral code to the Law.
So if we love we will be able to keep the commandments that we are asked to keep.

Please don't in fight and judge one another for as the Book of Romans suggests you will end up passing judgement on yourself! (Romans 14:10)

Examining, probing, demonstrating does not necessarily mean judging, until one states judgment.

Let's be careful not to confuse the two.

Let's be careful not to dismiss important clarification of God's will for the new order (Heb 9:10) with judgment of others.

 

[Elin]

LT, your response to my post on who wrote Hebrews is very dogmatic, uses no scripture whatsoever to support your claims. Then, in your desperation to prove me wrong, you resort to the smear of "anti-Semitism. I realize that you are a mere 18 years old but, surely, you can do better than name calling.

In this thread?

 

[LT]

LT, your response to my post on who wrote Hebrews is very dogmatic, uses no scripture whatsoever to support your claims. Then, in your desperation to prove me wrong, you resort to the smear of "anti-Semitism. I realize that you are a mere 18 years old but, surely, you can do better than name calling.

I think you misread what I posted. I never called you or anyone here antisemitic.

My response on the author of Hebrews was perhaps dogmatically against Pauline authorship, but I do have Scripture and sources to back up that claim. We can discuss further on a separate thread if you want, but that convo would derail this thread.

 

[Josh321]

Do you really think that she has said that we are justified without faith? I can't agree with your assumptions saying they are fact. If you can find that she is denying faith in anything that she has posted, please enlighten us all to this pagan exhortation she is presenting, by throwing faith to the wind.

i have a series of questions.. what is grace, and what happens when one receives grace?what does we are no longer under law but under grace means to you? secondly people saying we gotta keep the law to be saved so i'm not making any assumptions, and before you say the usual thing.. as what you people tell me, so what are we to do then kill steal etc etc.. i hear this everytime i say grace, alot of people clearly doesn't understand grace or what grace does when God gives grace to a person [h=3]Romans 6[/h]King James Version (KJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

[Yahshua]

I don't know if it has been done already, but maybe we should make a thread studying Romans from beginning to end, one sentence at a time just so everyone's on the same page. I'd say "one verse at a time" but we all know how sometimes verses break up complete thoughts.

 

[Josh321]

what i don't get... we know righteousness does not come from the law the bible said so.... and the bible also said the law is fulfilled within us through the holy spirit when we receive christ? yet we suppose to be under the old covenant? come on people... i understand some people may have grew up living this kinda of way so built up a solid brick wall that is hard to break it down but comon you can't be stubborn if the bible said so you know it's so...

 

[Josh321]

I don't know if it has been done already, but maybe we should make a thread studying Romans from beginning to end, one sentence at a time just so everyone's on the same page. I'd say "one verse at a time" but we all know how sometimes verses break up complete thoughts.

this has gotten deeper than that... it's like people refuse to accept it because they are offended or feel silly for doing something wrong.. there is no pride in anything, if you want to ask me why i believe what i believe i will anwser every question with the bible, the bible has the anwser for all of our questions

 

[Brother_Don]

the word is to be studied from Genesis to Revelation, not just read but studied. Its hard for me to believe that some one has studied the word for less than a year and has all the answers. i've read the Word and studied over and over this past 33 years and i still don't have all the answers, and probably never will as long as i'm in this flesh body, the Word is always showing me something new.

 

[just-me]

i have a series of questions.. what is grace, and what happens when one receives grace?what does we are no longer under law but under grace means to you? secondly people saying we gotta keep the law to be saved so i'm not making any assumptions, and before you say the usual thing.. as what you people tell me, so what are we to do then kill steal etc etc.. i hear this everytime i say grace, alot of people clearly doesn't understand grace or what grace does when God gives grace to a person Romans 6

King James Version (KJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Are you really asking what grace is?
It is unmerited favor given without requirements, but not without reciprocation.
Don't you know what happens after grace is received?
Grace is an attribute of God toward us.

John 1:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Now I will ask you some questions. Has anybody said that the law saves? I haven't ever read something like that from the so called judaizers and legalizers. The law came first from God. It didn't come through man.

The question that I ask, and will not strive with arguments is this. Do you think that the instructions given by God because of transgressions are no longer useful for enlightenment? If you say no, they no longer apply, then it is obvious you are satisfied with knowing less than God has intended from the beginning.

Four more questions.
1. If Jesus is the creator of all, as Paul wrote to the Colossians, why does His first words He gave to Moses mean nothing to you in difference to His teachings in the 4 gospels?
2. Did you know that all that Jesus taught before His death was Old Testament?
3.If all that God has given to mankind is through grace, why not accept all of it in Spiritual truth?
4.Is the law beyond your comprehension because it can only be seen as physical?

I get the impression that you hate the Mosaic Law, and want to negate it because of the grace you desire.

Romans 8:6-9 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The law doesn't cause enmity in my heart, mind, and soul. In fact, knowing the spiritual significance of the law increases my worshipful response toward a God that is totally awesome through our Savior, the One and only Messiah Jesus Christ. I'm sure you will have no argument with the way I believe now.

 

[RedTent]

I don't know if it has been done already, but maybe we should make a thread studying Romans from beginning to end, one sentence at a time just so everyone's on the same page. I'd say "one verse at a time" but we all know how sometimes verses break up complete thoughts.

I don't think that would work at all. Many people study Romans, Hebrew and Galatians and come up with something completely different from studying the same words.

Year ago, someone told me that I was misunderstanding Paul and whoever wrote Hebrews. I read these books as saying that God wanted us to ignore a lot of what God was saying although I hadn't thought of it like that, before. The God was telling us that he broke all the promises God had made before Christ, and again I would have been shocked at that wording of my belief. So what does Paul consider the Law of Moses? In Hebrews, does God tell us to destroy and not take seriously the OT? Those are the burning questions, and a verse by verse breakdown of these chapters isn't going to give us the answers that Christ wants us to know.