BREAKING COVENANT

[just-us-2]

With all of the comments on this thread I am re-posting a short paragraph from my last post that wasn't replying to other people's posts: Bringing the Salt Covenant from Bible times into our time, Dr. Trumbull, considered by scholars to be the greatest authority on Covenant making, says Jesus was talking about covenants in Matthew 5:13 – taken literally, Jesus was saying that we are God’s expression of covenant. "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.” (NAS)

And now the new post:
Jesus was talking to His disciples when He said that so, we must take it as instruction to us also if we are to claim to be His followers. Therefore, if we break our covenants – lose our saltiness – we are of no use any longer. Think for a moment about what the intensity of the meaning of Jesus’ words would have been to those disciples, steeped in ancient tradition’s value of salt. Now, think about modern churches – any of them: Lutheran, Methodist, Catholic, various Evangelical denominations, etc – and evaluate honestly how we keep this Covenant with God. In all reality, we are what people, other Christians and non-Christians alike, look at to see who God is whether we like it or not. Personally, I would like to say to them all, “Don’t look at me, I mess up too much!” The point is that when the rest of the world looks at the church, the unsaved are forming their opinion of just who God is, and the Believers are watching for sincerity with wisdom and knowledge in professing Christians – a very rare commodity these days. If we, as Christians who claim to ‘love the Lord’ and follow Him, were to keep the Covenant we made with God when we accepted the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, the world would see a God who keeps His covenants rather than a social club that claims to love everyone and has no power whatsoever.

 

[Karraster]

Justus2, I have been reading about the salt covenant, and really appreciate you so much for bring this to attention. There is no way to understand a language ancient and foreign, without understanding the customs of that era, and people. Every piece of the puzzle brings a clearer picture. this is a big piece of the puzzle, and one that Messiah referred to.

 

[directline2iam]

Gen 6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant;/QUOTE LookuptoseeJesus

There you have the big misunderstanding, it says MY covenant, not our covenant. The covenant of the Old Testament and the Covenant of the New. All done by God alone, not a contract between two people like buying a car. God don't break His Covenants. He keeps them right no matter what sins we commit, for His mercy endures.

 

[chubbena]

WRONG!!! The new covenant REPLACED the old. What is it about plain scripture that makes you want to reject it so easily?

Hebrews 8:13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Is the content of the covenant changed? Or is it from inscribed on stone, or on whatever materials used, to written in the heart? If it's written in the heart then why using what's written/printed on paper in NT, which is by the way not yet written/printed in 1st century, to discredit those who have OT, which is by the way called scripture in 1st century, in their heart?

 

[just-me]

So I am persuaded to issue my conclusion, defining the character of all who have despised this thread. They have no desire to see the big picture since the beginning of time, since they are satisfied with their current state. They talk about the “New Covenant” in Christ as if it were something that was planned after everything else God has tried just failed. Then according to the rhetoric that causes contention, the word “covenant” is seen as something bad before Christ’s Sacrifice for sins. Then the “covenant” with Jesus Christ is a very good thing as long as it doesn’t include those failed covenants, laws, and Old Testament sayings of God.

Consider these scriptures when thinking about the covenant with Christ, for He was in the planning stage before God created heaven and earth. So what is the conclusion of “covenant?” It is only one huge covenant finalized in Christ Jesus. Everything that God has said from the beginning was all planned out in sequence to be finished and completed in Christ. It all must be there in order for it to be perfect. I think this thread is endorsing one covenant through Christ. The complete covenant cannot exempt Christ from everything before He was made flesh and dwelt among us.

Matthew 4:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

John 17:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 1:1and 14 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Colossians 1:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

“partakers of the inheritance” sounds like one covenant to me

Colossians 1:13-16
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

“For Him” is the cohesive bond that includes everything that God has ever made, and has ever given. EVERYTHING!

 

[just-me]

Colossians 1:17-19
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

If Jesus created all things, is that not one covenant that includes all things from the beginning, written in the Word and through the Word? Whoever separates Jesus from the Old Testament laws, and covenants is in critical danger.

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Galatians 4:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Romans 5:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

1 Corinthians 15:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

God has made it clear that we will be held accountable, if with vain words we say we promise to abide by your covenant, and then think we aren’t responsible for not living up to the agreement because Jesus bore it all on the cross. Those are the ones who fight to reject certain parts of scripture, saying this or that no longer applies after Christ. It proves a carnal mind. They don’t have the Spirit to understand the old.

Romans 8:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The condition of our heart will be manifested by what we say, and what we say can be very condemning of us in the sight of God.

1 John 3:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

Luke 6:45 (KJV)
[SUP]45 [/SUP]A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

 

[chubbena]

Originally Posted by just-me
So when we confess that we are saved, we are bound to the covenant despite our insincerity.




Sounds like a dictatorship to me. Instead of God issuing Words that we can respond to, you seem to be saying that God says you better respond, and you have no alternative. I don't see an institution (covenant) of a loving relationship in that.

And by the way, His covenant with the Israelites, with all the "hard to bear" laws, He called it a covenant of LOVE c.f. Deut 7:12.

 

[Rockbysea]

Originally Posted by just-me
So when we confess that we are saved, we are bound to the covenant despite our insincerity.




Sounds like a dictatorship to me. Instead of God issuing Words that we can respond to, you seem to be saying that God says you better respond, and you have no alternative. I don't see an institution (covenant) of a loving relationship in that.

God is a dictator. The Kingdom of God is a dictatorship not a democracy… All who do not obey God’s dictates… His commands will perish by fire. Amazing how all you old covenant butchers have not figured that out after all this Sabbath keeping in the fear of damnation

What you are saying is the opposite… that man is the dictator over God… that man dictates what God should do. If a man confesses that He’s saved then God is forced to obey his voice and come into covenant/agreement with him.

 

[just-me]

God is a dictator. The Kingdom of God is a dictatorship not a democracy… All who do not obey God’s dictates… His commands will perish by fire. Amazing how all you old covenant butchers have not figured that out after all this Sabbath keeping in the fear of damnation

What you are saying is the opposite… that man is the dictator over God… that man dictates what God should do. If a man confesses that He’s saved then God is forced to obey his voice and come into covenant/agreement with him.

I mentioned a verse previous to this post that exemplifies what you are presenting. May God Bless you with wisdom.

Romans 8:3-9 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[RedTent]

God is a dictator. The Kingdom of God is a dictatorship not a democracy… All who do not obey God’s dictates… His commands will perish by fire. Amazing how all you old covenant butchers have not figured that out after all this Sabbath keeping in the fear of damnation

What you are saying is the opposite… that man is the dictator over God… that man dictates what God should do. If a man confesses that He’s saved then God is forced to obey his voice and come into covenant/agreement with him.

God a dictator? God is a creator of the universe, very like some men create a car. I suppose the creator of a car is a dictator to the car. He made the car so that if you put sugar in the gas tank it isn't going to run, regular dictator to that car.

There can't be sin in God's heaven, sin must be cleansed from people who go there. Sort of like you can't go into some restaurants without clothes on. I wouldn't think of being angry with God over that any more than I'd tangle with a restaurant owner if I wanted to go eat in his restaurant naked.

I was always in awe of God and thankful for His love. The world He created seems wonderful to me, better than any car ever made. I thought the way God told us to live in it the best way worked pretty good, too. I am frightened of the other way: to live in sin, doesn't look good to me at all. But when I listen to how God wants things, I don't think it is fear that drives me, but love of my Lord.

 

[Karraster]

[SUP]Matthew 11:29

[/SUP]Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.[SUP][a][/SUP]


I have loved this verse always. When I was blind I loved this verse because only the last half sunk into my heart. The more open my eyes become I see the whole verse, Take my yoke upon you and learn from me. I love it all the more! Messiah said if we see Him, truly see Him, then we have seen the Father. We are to do the Father's will.


“I will house myself in them, . . .
and I will walk among you.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

 

[Rockbysea]

And by the way, His covenant with the Israelites, with all the "hard to bear" laws, He called it a covenant of LOVE c.f. Deut 7:12.

Those laws are not hard to bear when it's the constitution of an entire nation.... when every man, woman, child and beast of the entire nation is resting on the Sabbath. But when you try to enforce those same laws upon individuals enslaved in Egypt.... or in modern Babylon... or upon the billions of poor living in slave states around the world it’s next to impossible.

This is why I refer to you all as old covenant butchers. You each need to hack pieces out of the old covenant that you are unable to keep and then order Christ to allocate His suffering to honor (ratify) what’s left, which is your butchered make-believe covenant. This is why I call it an elitist doctrine… it’s for the well-to-do know-it-alls of the world who have the freedom and wealth to rest one day a week instead of slaving 7 days a week in a sweat shop for 2 dollars a day… and can afford to eat beef instead of being forced to eat pork lard to stretch the beans… And then you can confidently discard the other 95% of the covenant you can’t keep assuming that Christ has followed for dictates and ratified your butchered contract. .

 

[Rockbysea]

God a dictator? God is a creator of the universe, very like some men create a car. I suppose the creator of a car is a dictator to the car. He made the car so that if you put sugar in the gas tank it isn't going to run, regular dictator to that car.

There can't be sin in God's heaven, sin must be cleansed from people who go there. Sort of like you can't go into some restaurants without clothes on. I wouldn't think of being angry with God over that any more than I'd tangle with a restaurant owner if I wanted to go eat in his restaurant naked.

I was always in awe of God and thankful for His love. The world He created seems wonderful to me, better than any car ever made. I thought the way God told us to live in it the best way worked pretty good, too. I am frightened of the other way: to live in sin, doesn't look good to me at all. But when I listen to how God wants things, I don't think it is fear that drives me, but love of my Lord.

I’m the dictator of my car because I’m the driver. The nations will be ruled with a rod of iron. That is a dictatorship. The difference is that it’s a benevolent dictatorship not a cruel dictatorship. But you old covenant butchers are trying to dictate to Christ… to order him to ratify your contracts

 

[Karraster]

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

“For Him” is the cohesive bond that includes everything that God has ever made, and has ever given. EVERYTHING!




We are to be conformed to Messiah. and He was conformed to The Almighty, and is Him. In the everlasting life to come, there will not be any who disagree with Him. We will all love and worship our Maker! And His Love will conquer all!

 

[RedTent]

I’m the dictator of my car because I’m the driver. The nations will be ruled with a rod of iron. That is a dictatorship. The difference is that it’s a benevolent dictatorship not a cruel dictatorship. But you old covenant butchers are trying to dictate to Christ… to order him to ratify your contracts

"Old Covenant butchers" No one can butcher a covenant, even you. It is a contract, an agreement between two. You can refuse to honor your part of the agreement, where does the butchering come in?

I didn't know that someone on cc invented and created a car!! Bully for you. Driving a car someone invented and created is something else again.

 

[just-me]

Those laws are not hard to bear when it's the constitution of an entire nation.... when every man, woman, child and beast of the entire nation is resting on the Sabbath. But when you try to enforce those same laws upon individuals enslaved in Egypt.... or in modern Babylon... or upon the billions of poor living in slave states around the world it’s next to impossible.

This is why I refer to you all as old covenant butchers. You each need to hack pieces out of the old covenant that you are unable to keep and then order Christ to allocate His suffering to honor (ratify) what’s left, which is your butchered make-believe covenant. This is why I call it an elitist doctrine… it’s for the well-to-do know-it-alls of the world who have the freedom and wealth to rest one day a week instead of slaving 7 days a week in a sweat shop for 2 dollars a day… and can afford to eat beef instead of being forced to eat pork lard to stretch the beans… And then you can confidently discard the other 95% of the covenant you can’t keep assuming that Christ has followed for dictates and ratified your butchered contract. .

You miss the point again. The entire plan of God is one program/covenant from beginning to end. It involves Jesus from the beginning of all things to the end of all things with the most finite detail. Butchering, or taring to shreds is the mistake that people make so that we see ourselves as righteous, and that makes us unrighteous. No escape. If you say you want in, your in. If you break it, the substance doesn't change. Suffer the consequence.

Romans 14:11-13 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

 

[just-me]

This is why I refer to you all as old covenant butchers. You each need to hack pieces out of the old covenant that you are unable to keep and then order Christ to allocate His suffering to honor (ratify) what’s left, which is your butchered make-believe covenant. This is why I call it an elitist doctrine… it’s for the well-to-do know-it-alls of the world who have the freedom and wealth to rest one day a week instead of slaving 7 days a week in a sweat shop for 2 dollars a day… and can afford to eat beef instead of being forced to eat pork lard to stretch the beans… And then you can confidently discard the other 95% of the covenant you can’t keep assuming that Christ has followed for dictates and ratified your butchered contract. .

After reading your post over for three times, you might want to consider that we could possibly be on the same page. One question for confirmation. Do you esteem the so called Mosaic law as relevant for Christians today? I do.

 

[just-us-2]

I’m the dictator of my car because I’m the driver. The nations will be ruled with a rod of iron. That is a dictatorship. The difference is that it’s a benevolent dictatorship not a cruel dictatorship. But you old covenant butchers are trying to dictate to Christ… to order him to ratify your contracts

We... "old covenant butchers"???? There is no point in continuing to try showing you what you are missing. I would not say that to one who seeks to learn but you obviously have no interest in learning so I will simply quote the Bible and let it give you the message: "Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.1 Peter 2:12 (NAS)

I could go on and show you with scripture the group of people you belong to, proven by your remarks, but I have better things to do than contend with a person who already thinks he knows all he needs to know and refuses to hear. I will give you one bit of friendly advice though...refrain from name-calling of your elders, one of whom is Red Tent who you labeled an old covenant butcher, whom you should respect.

 

[Rockbysea]

"Old Covenant butchers" No one can butcher a covenant, even you. It is a contract, an agreement between two. You can refuse to honor your part of the agreement, where does the butchering come in?

I didn't know that someone on cc invented and created a car!! Bully for you. Driving a car someone invented and created is something else again.

That’s why I call it “make-believe.” No you can’t butcher the old covenant but you can create your own thinking that it’s the same thing when it’s not. I’m amazed that after all this living and bible reading my simple language is hard to understand.

For 13 years I kept all the Sabbaths, feasts, 3 tithes, 7 offerings and didn’t eat unclean meats… gave up a potentially promising music career, cut my hair…wore a suit and tie to services and carried a brown briefcase and had a bible with my name imprinted in gold lettering. In 13 years I did not miss one Sabbath service, holy day or feast. If someone would have put a gun to my head and told me to work on the Sabbath I would have told them to pull the trigger.

There is no way I would listen to anyone tell me anything in those days. It made sense to me…. I was shown in the bible that God commanded the Sabbath, sunset to sunset, and shown a few scriptures in the NT to back it up… the same ones I see used here… and that was enough for me.

One day after 13 years I started to read those same NT scriptures supporting the Sabbath and challenged myself to look at it the opposite way and I was shocked: I noticed they were meaning the exact opposite to what I was told. Suddenly there was this tremendous weight lifted off my shoulders. I was literally floating around with a glazed euphoric look on my face for about 3 months that everyone could see.

I believe now that if I would have been on an Internet discussion board anytime during those 13 years (there was no Internet in those days) and heard the arguments that I’m presenting here which I’ve never heard put quite this way anywhere before… I do not believe I could challenge them. The reason why I say this is because I have an old friend who went to those same services as I did but he never left. He’s been keeping all those Sabbaths and holy days now for 30 years. Not too long ago over dinner the subject came up and for the first time I laid it all out...similar to what I’ve laid out here. After it was over he just looked at me with this stunned look on his face... smiling but in his eyes it was like he just lost something old and dear to him and said, “Everything you say is right… you are so convincing.”

But I do believe (I have not yet checked up on him) that he’s still doing the same thing and the reason is that when I first realized that I was free under Christ I was relieved and overjoyed… when he first realized he was free under Christ he was disappointed… disappointed because I believe that to him keeping those few commands made him feel different from everybody else and now without them he wasn’t special. Like many here believe the Sabbath is a seal that separates them from others... one person even posted what that seal looks like... like a flashy gold coin.

I think this is why many can’t be budged… keeping those Sabbaths makes them feel special… better than everybody else… the prospect of just being a child of God (and there are not many) doesn’t have that appeal to give them that same feeling of being special.

 

[Karraster]

Rockbysea, I could post a long reply about myself that is exactly the opposite to what you just said. In the end it is not up to us to decide. You are either on board with submitting to the will of Almighty or you live for yourself. Lukewarm is not a good position either.