Manifest Sons of God doctrine

Arwen4CJ · Jan 13, 2014

From the thread:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/82687-people-say-im-crazy-16.html

I suggest that we start a new thread, branching from the "people say Im crazy thread," since Simiel has left the thread, and the whole thread became a different topic altogether.

Cobus originally posted this at the above thread:

Context: If you have to give one context in line with Scripture, what will the short version be.... Let me give you mine.... God sent Jesus so we can turn from evil and Satan, to God and holiness....

There is ONE subject in the Bible.... Turn from darkness to Light. Turn from Satan to God... The whole Bible has only one purpose.... To let God's will be done on earth.... One purpose... God to save some!!!

The whole Bible teach... Let God's will be done...

So let me sk you this, do you believe this Scripture, and do you think the heart of flesh CAN move out of God's will? Do you believe the stony heart can be holy, or the flesh-heart and God's Spiritr UNHOLY (or sin at all?). God says if we are Born of God, HIS SEED remaineth in us and we CANNOT sin... 1 John 3:9 and ! John 5:18... And God prohecied it in Ezekiel 36:26 and 27... God says HE WILL CAUSE us to KEEP His will.... Do you believe this? Do you believe I can sin if GOD CAUSE me to stay and remain in HIS WILL?

Either Godf is lying or you know not the POWER of God's salvation... I think you do not know God's salvation....Eph 4 says God appointed the people in iffce for the PERFECTING of the SAINTS.... In the Bible a SAINT is already a person that sinneth not! but God says htey are not perfect Yet... WHY?

Please tell me what you think God will call a SAINT... it is from the greek word HAGIOS.... physically pure, morally blameless and MOST HOLY.... how can even one sin be MOST HOLY? Adam only sinned once and he fell from holiness....

No my friends, you have to know this.... Ezekiel 36:26 and 27... A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Oh God is SO BEAUTIFUL and SO POWERFUL, May His will be done as it is done in heaven.... How is His will done in heaven? PERFECTLY...

I'll give my response in a bit. In the mean time, anyone is welcome to respond.

Arwen4CJ · Jan 13, 2014

Here is mine:
God created us to live in perfect relationship with Him. However, the first humans sinned, and that perfect relationship with God was broken. Now all humans have a desire to sin, and we will sin. We cannot live up to God's standards. So, God became flesh and did what we could not do -- He lived a perfect life and became our perfect sacrifice. He took the punishment that we deserved upon Himself and He died on the cross instead of us. Jesus then rose from the dead, and He will come again. Jesus is our only hope.

Actually, I would say that God is the main subject of the Bible.

He does call us to turn from our evil ways and turn towards God (to repent). And God does definitely save us. He would like all to come to Him, but not everyone will. We proclaim what Jesus has done for us, but it is up to people to accept the gospel or not. Some will reject it because they don't want to have to bow to God as their Lord and Savior. They don't think that they need Him. They think they can save themselves.

In a way, yes. But God doesn't force Himself on us. Humans have fallen, and we keep trying to let our will be done. It is us who refuse to submit to God. It will always be like this until Jesus comes again.

It is only God who can make any of us holy. We are not righteous on our own. Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us. God never says that our sinful nature disappears when we become born again. If you think that you do not sin now that you are a believer, then you are deceiving yourself. If you're going to use 1 John, then how about this passage:

1 John 1:5-2:2 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; [SUP]7 [/SUP]but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. [SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an [SUP][a][/SUP]Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; [SUP]2 [/SUP]and He Himself is the [SUP][b][/SUP]propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Now if we read the entire letters of 1 John, 2 John, and 3 John, we can see that John is confronting the sinful attitudes that people have when they do not treat each other out of love. He is saying that Jesus commanded us to love one another, so we shouldn't hate each other. Treating people with hate is of the devil. He's not telling us that Christians have lost the ability to sin, or that they no longer have a sinful nature.

If it were true that believers lost the ability to sin, then we wouldn't have the NT writers constantly telling us to watch our doctrine, or to love one another, they would not be addressing issues of sin that came into the church. There would be no need to address any of this, as the NT letters were written to the church (to those who believed already).

The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, but He doesn't force us to not sin. The Holy Spirit also leads us in the process of sanctification, but this does not mean that we are perfect already. He guides us and moves us to do good things, but He doesn't prevent us from doing bad things.

God's power of salvation has to do with the forgiveness of sins. God does change us, but He doesn't make us unable to sin.

Actually, what a "saint" is depends on what denomination you are a part of. When I see the word "saint" in the Bible, it seems to be another word for a believer -- just someone who is a Christian. It doesn't mean that the person is perfect. The teaching that saints are perfect or are wonderful people is a human teaching.

If anyone is "perfect" it is only because of Jesus' imputed righteousness. It isn't because they have lost the ability to sin.

The only way anyone is ever pure is because of the imputed righteousness from Jesus. We are not righteous on our own, and we never will be.

This doesn't mean that it is literally impossible for us to ever sin. And also be careful not to mix things that happen at the second coming with where we are in history now. Jesus has not returned yet.

posthuman · Jan 13, 2014

i think if you separate the old man from the new in your thinking, you will understand Cobus, his perspective, and what he has to say much better.

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

(Romans 7:14-25)

dcontroversal · Jan 13, 2014

posthuman said:

No doubt as the more time you spend with Christ (in the word) the more wicked you will see yourself in the flesh in light of the righteousness of Christ. Paul went from the least of the apostles, to the least of the saints, to the number one chief sinner before God. True, biblical people will "beat on the breast" while saying, "God be merciful unto me, a sinner" Thank the Almighty Father God of Heaven and His most righteous and Holy Son Jesus the Christ for grace and mercy!

Arwen4CJ · Jan 13, 2014

posthuman said:

I think I might need to quote more of the old thread so that people can see more of a history of the other thread, and what was developing there. Because, to me, it sounds like he is saying that Christians no longer have the sinful nature at all, so that it is impossible for us to sin.

Let me go back in the history of the other thread and pull quotes that Cobus made in that other thread to give this more context:

Then he posted #307, which is what I started the thread with.

reject-tech · Jan 13, 2014

I believe we can be righteous from God's opinion, but not from our own.
In other words, humbly never able to fully concede a righteousness that is bestowed by God.
I see this repeatedly in the characters in the bible who were said to be righteous.

A son of man is what a person becomes because of mankind around him.
He becomes what some properly oriented men aspire to become, and what improperly oriented men produce by way of their wrongdoings.
The world has begotten his turning away from it.
A son of God is a more interpersonal expression of the same thing, with the focus on the conduit between the man and God personally, instead of between the man and his surroundings.
Same man, different context.
It refers to something within that is begotten of God, and the only son He begets is salvation, that is, an outward manifestation of salvation of others, not a salvation of self. Because the cost of saving others is abandonment of self preservation. Lifeguards and firemen are simple fleshly examples.

How many of these and who are "saints" or "elect" is up for God to state, not the individual.
There is repeated language in the scripture for anyone of this status to dodge the boasting of that status.

So John the baptist for example, knowing good and well that he was another "Elijah" was able to truthfully dodge the question "are you Elijah" (the same guy)
And he was able to truthfully say that no he was not "that prophet". I think if they had asked him if he were A prophet, he would have either said "yes" or "what do you say?"

When you see people jump on the internet, TV or the pulpit with the title "prophet", "saint", "elect" and so on, and give some detailed vision to a mass of listeners that haven't been pre-evaluated, my opinion is that you can dismiss that person as a prophet. The guys in the bible that took and used that title weren't your average believer or preacher. They were elect, and usually indisputably empowered beyond ordinary means by God.

I think claiming to be a "son of man" is about as far as one can go with a title, and that they probably only really know each other as such.
We should very carefully be more willing to identify other people as saints, elect, prophets, sons of men, sons of God and so on, than to identify ourselves, and more than likely those people will not claim those titles.

Yes, the heart can be righteous, and God will speak it, but who dares accept it? And I believe that is part of the qualifier.

Simiel · Jan 13, 2014

If your still sinning you haven't denied yourself. Your still living from you flesh. Still drawing out from your old man..

When you accept Jesus and ask God for the Holy Spirit. Now you live out your spirit. Your new man

But since our minds only knows our old man we try to live from that place. That's why he tells us to renew our mind or repent (Chang the way you think) So we can know our new man and live from that place.

We have the ability to sin but not to enjoy it.. Why?? Because your spirit is convicting your old mind.. There fighting. So you having flesh and spirit wars..

Renew your mind to the spirit.. You want have sinning problems.

This is the best way I can explain it..

Angela53510 · Jan 13, 2014

I think we need to go through a bit of the Bible to understand, that NO, we are not suddenly perfect and equal to Christ when we are saved.

Step 1 - Justified by faith
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. " Romans 5:1

Step 2 - Sanctified by the Spirit (growing up in the Lord!)
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life." Romans 6:22

Step 3 - Glorified
"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:30

"and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if so it be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together." Romans 8:17

Also, 1 John 3:2, if very clear that we do not become like Jesus until we meet him face to face.

"Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appearswe shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2

Why are we not made perfect or do we become like Christ in this lifetime? Because we do not see Christ clearly, because we live in a fallen world.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1 Cor. 13:12

Finally, Paul is clear that we are changing in this life. Notice the verb tense of "are being transformed"

The word is μεταμορφούμεθα in the Greek, which is the present, indicative passive. God is in the process, right now of transforming us. However, as 1 John 3:2 above so clearly states, this is not done until either Christ returns or we die.

"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." 2 Cor. 3:18

Character is continually being formed in the believer as he or she is conformed to the image of Christ, thus fulfilling one of the creation purposes of God.

I think Simiel, that you need to post a few Bible verses to support your points. I know for a fact, that you cannot, because you do not know the Bible well enough, and you would not have these heretical doctrines if you had read the Bible through.

If you want to answer me, then show it to me in the Bible, or don't bother replying. Only the Bible has the truth of God, not a person who can barely write in English!

Simiel · Jan 13, 2014

Angela53510 said:

I think we need to go through a bit of the Bible to understand, that NO, we are not suddenly perfect and equal to Christ when we are saved.

Step 1 - Justified by faith
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. " Romans 5:1

Step 2 - Sanctified by the Spirit (growing up in the Lord!)
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life." Romans 6:22

Step 3 - Glorified
"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:30

"and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if so it be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together." Romans 8:17

Also, 1 John 3:2, if very clear that we do not become like Jesus until we meet him face to face.

"Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appearswe shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2

Why are we not made perfect or do we become like Christ in this lifetime? Because we do not see Christ clearly, because we live in a fallen world.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1 Cor. 13:12

Finally, Paul is clear that we are changing in this life. Notice the verb tense of "are being transformed"

The word is μεταμορφούμεθα in the Greek, which is the present, indicative passive. God is in the process, right now of transforming us. However, as 1 John 3:2 above so clearly states, this is not done until either Christ returns or we die.

"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." 2 Cor. 3:18

Character is continually being formed in the believer as he or she is conformed to the image of Christ, thus fulfilling one of the creation purposes of God.

I think Simiel, that you need to post a few Bible verses to support your points. I know for a fact, that you cannot, because you do not know the Bible well enough, and you would not have these heretical doctrines if you had read the Bible through.

If you want to answer me, then show it to me in the Bible, or don't bother replying. Only the Bible has the truth of God, not a person who can barely write in English!

Your 1 John 3:2. Is talking about the way Jesus is in heaven. ( Like the way he transfigured on the mountain) Not the way he was on earth.
I believe you should read the whole chapter No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him...

If you read your bible you know what I say is true.. I believe Romans 7,8 and 12.. ephesians 4 ,1 Peter 1 speaks on it...

Sorry for my English writing God didn't call me to write. Maybe you can be my helper like Arron was to Moses

Arwen4CJ · Jan 13, 2014

Simiel said:

I'm a bit confused....I thought you left this discussion?

Of course you are welcome to continue participation.

A couple things here -- we don't have to ask for the Holy Spirit. Depending on viewpoint, some say that people receive the Holy Spirit when they are baptized, others say that we receive the Holy Spirit when we come to faith in Christ. I hold to the second of those views, though my denomination holds to the first. I can see Scriptural arguments for both.

At least you admit now that we have the ability to still sin, once we are believers.

Arwen4CJ · Jan 13, 2014

Simiel said:

Actually, that is talking about the Second Coming of Jesus, which hasn't happened yet.

You're still taking Romans 7 and 8 out of context, as well as the other passages, if you think that it means that true Christians never sin.

Once again, I have to ask you --
Do you always treat all other people you encounter perfectly, never even thinking bad thoughts about them, never hurting them in any way, and never accidentally treating them wrong?

Do you always love God perfectly, and keep Him first in all that you do, always acting how He would want you to?

Simiel · Jan 13, 2014

Arwen4CJ said:

If I say yes i do you won't believe me and if I say no I will be lying.

I will say this I use too, but not till I renewed my mind I have not .. Not till Holy Spirit revealed this to me my whole perspective on things change. I will not treat somebody wrong because God doesnt treat me that way.. I just want to please Him and with me he is well pleased

Have I wronged any of you? Have I called you names or liars? Or called your beliefs false?

wanderer6059 · Jan 14, 2014

Simiel said:

i love when people us no scripture to back up there points and thoughts and when they do they take verses way out of context because they don't understand when they are reading, don't you simiel......wait im kidding i can't stand it simiel please stop talking

Simiel · Jan 14, 2014

wanderer6059 said:

I have relationship with the Farther. Not just scriptures that tell me about Him.

You know not what you read because you read with your mind and not with the new heart that God gave you

wanderer6059 · Jan 14, 2014

simiel by the way answer this is Jesus Christ the one and only savior and the Son of God being 100% man and 100% God in the flesh at the same time or just a man a phrophet with the Spirit of God

Simiel · Jan 14, 2014

Yes to what you said.. But he was a prophet also and much more lol

Luke 7:26But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.

wanderer6059 · Jan 14, 2014

Simiel said:

God in the flesh or prophet?

Arwen4CJ · Jan 14, 2014

Simiel,

When Jesus was on earth, was Jesus God in the flesh (and also fully human), or was He merely a man who was empowered by the Holy Spirit?

When I asked you this in the other thread, you gave me one answer....but maybe you've changed your mind?

To make this clear....you have to answer #1 or #2.

#1.) Jesus was God in the flesh while He was on earth. This means that Jesus was fully human and fully God. He did not do the miracles as simply a man empowered by the Holy Spirit.

#2.) Jesus was merely a human who was empowered by the Holy Spirit, and He did all of His miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can do the same miracles Jesus did because we are empowered by the Holy Spirit, too.

Which answer do you go with? #1 or #2?

Simiel · Jan 14, 2014

Arwen4CJ said:

1.I will let you answer your own question.. Did Jesus do any miracles before he got the Holy Spirit??

2. Did Jesus disciples do the same miracles? I will remind you he sent out 72 disciples 12 apostles later on Paul and the Corinth church..

3 Luke 9:49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. What about that guy?? Lol

wanderer6059 · Jan 14, 2014

Simiel said:

1.I will let you answer your own question.. Did Jesus do any miracles before he got the Holy Spirit??

2. Did Jesus disciples do the same miracles? I will remind you he sent out 72 disciples 12 apostles later on Paul and the Corinth church..

3 Luke 9:49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. What about that guy?? Lol

is Jesus God or a prophet? again i ask you. say only one word, God or prophet.

Manifest Sons of God doctrine

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