Attack of the Judaizers

[RedTent]

Your Christ is the old covenant… that’s what is sick. And your teaching that Christ requests that everybody in the world should obey the old covenant to be saved is pretty sick because for billions of people that is impossible.

When you say that Christ updated the old covenant, which many Israelites failed to keep the original even when they were a sovereign nation under God, and made it even more potent… even harder to keep and came to enforce it on all the gentiles living under Satan’s governments… this is not from Christ but it’s coming from your sick-freak doctrine of terror.

And the amazing thing about all this is the blatant hypocrisy... because you're all trying to shove down the throats of others something that you're all unable to keep.

Christ is Christ, not another God, another place, Christ is the one true God. Christ was from the beginning and now is. I couldn't have a different Christ than Christ is. Christ is not a covenant, Christ is a savior to those who would go to Him.

The bible mentions that the first covenant has been replaced, no other covenant. What you say and what I say doesn't count or change anything. It is what Christ says that counts. But for us to teach Christ's words that are not His words is a terrible thing.

Scripture says to obey. Scripture says we are born in sin. Scripture says that we can't obey.

If you were of God you would not say "sick-freak doctrine of terror". We aren't even to say "you fool". You would keep to scripture. Christ said if you love me you will keep my commandments. Christ did not say I will sick-freak you with terror as you are saying. Christ said I love you and will forgive you if you come to me.

Christ said that I give you a new covenant. Christ did not say that I cancel everything my Father gave you, Christ said he gave a new covenant.

Christ's words are not blatant hypocrisy.

 

[Hoffco]

The answer is very simple; just read the new T. and you will learn what is left of the Old Cov. and what is droped. Judizers are those who want to enforce what the New testament has dropped. very simple . Love to all ,Hoffco

 

[RedTent]

I'm not sure which covenant you are talking about, the Abrahamic or the Mosaic (Sinaitic)?

There are many covenants spoken of in scripture. Scripture tells us it is the covenant God made with Adam that has been replaced, the first covenant.

 

[Elin]

What is heart breakingly sick is saying you can pick and choose from what God is saying, Your words "mandatory observance" of Christ's request to obey shows sickness, "old covenant laws" shows sickness. God made a covenant, that is a promise that keeps or the God who made it is not to be trusted. It is sick to say that scripture is split in two, we should get rid of most of what is old. When Christ replaced and updated the same ideas and made them more potent, it is sick to say we must not look into that and find out what and how Christ replaced. Saying the only way to learn about that is based on the few years the NT covers and don't listen to any of the 4,000 years telling of how it was to be is sick.

You are taking truths scripture tells us about and twisting them into sickness.

I'm not sure which covenant you are talking about, the Abrahamic or the Mosaic (Sinaitic) covenant?

There are many covenants spoken of in scripture. Scripture tells us it is the covenant God made with Adam that has been replaced, the first covenant.

Okay. . .were you including the Mosaic (Sinaitic) Covenant in what I bolded in blue above?

 

[RedTent]

The answer is very simple; just read the new T. and you will learn what is left of the Old Cov. and what is droped. Judizers are those who want to enforce what the New testament has dropped. very simple . Love to all ,Hoffco

I think it isn't simple and I think our very lives depend on us finding the answer that God wants us to find, God's answer. I'm a Judizer because I truly believe it is of God. God does not say what Christ replaced and made new should be enforced. If we were to say that, then we must be tossed out for we would not be of God. We are saying you are tossing out what God has never said to toss out.

Christ replaced many things. In a way, even the blood of animals is not "tossed out" but it is not to be used any more because we are to use Christ's blood. Many things are changed. The temple. The Holy Spirit available to all. Many things, and we are to understand all about those things.

I do not think God said to toss out all reading of law. We are to know how it was fulfilled, not replaced. I do not think we are to toss out all covenants, only the first with Adam. We know something is made obsolete from Hebrews, and we are to know just what. If we read the entire bible, we know it is not God the Father that is tossed out.

The anti-OT people say the OT taught a works salvation, because they haven't understood the OT. If it taught that it would teach that man can be God like, can do for themselves without God. Or that the OT teaches legalistic type of obedience is good obedience. Saying that isn't so is what most of the book of Isaiah is about. So when you say you are tossing that out, it never was so you can't toss something out that never was.

 

[Angela53510]

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." Gal. 5:22-23

I wish some people on this thread could demonstrate these things, against which things there is no law!

 

[RedTent]

Okay. . .were you including the Mosaic (Sinaitic) Covenant in what I bolded in blue above?

I am going to have to go back and study this covenant to refresh my memory. So many people say it is only for the Hebrew people because it was sort of like a constitution for the land they would take. Also, I have heard people say it was commandments to tell how to gain salvation, and that can't be because from the beginning, salvation was through blood.

What this constitution would give the Hebrews was justice, peace, and a good life. And that, I think, still stands exactly as it was the day Moses brought those stone tablets down to the people. I think there is always the spiritual and principles of God that shows in the physical things God tells of. So yes, I think we should listen to this covenant.

 

[JesusLives]

Why I think the 10 Commandments are still relevant for today.

I was a single mother and in our house I had rules. I explained those rules to my daughter and made sure that she understood them and knew what I expected of her she also knew that there would be consequences and possible punishment if they were not obeyed. Did I make those rules hard and impossible for her to comply with? No - I made them because I loved her and I wanted to keep her safe, happy and to be as free from problems as possible. As she grew there were adjustments made but the basic principle of the rules still applied - in other words the rules did not change.

God has given us 10 Commandments - they have not changed, they are still the same today as the day God wrote them with His finger in stone. He spoke them to the people on Mt. Sinai and they are still relevant today. These rules or laws are to show us what sin is. The man who questioned Jesus was asking him what must I do to be saved? Jesus asked him how he saw or read the law. He replied to love God with all your heart and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus told him he was correct on these two hang the whole law. The first four honor and show God love and the last six show love toward our fellow man. Gods 10 Commandments or rules are laws/rules of love. They are still relevant for today because if a sinner comes and asks what must I do to be save we can show them the rules and what God expects - Gods rules don't change because God does not change.

Can the 10 commandments save that sinner - NO - John 3:16 tells us that Jesus is our Savior. But that does not mean that Gods laws/rules that He asked us to obey have changed. Just as my daughter knows when she comes home that moms rules of the house are still in force.

Jesus did for us what we could not do for ourselves, but He did not change His Father's laws/rules/principals of love. He sent the Holy Spirit to live in our hearts and those laws are written in our hearts. Because we love God we obey His Laws/rules that not one jot or tittle will be changed until all is fulfilled and all has not been fulfilled because Jesus has not returned yet and gotten rid of sin the wicked and Satan and his evil forces.

 

[Karraster]

The Church Fathers changed the commandments. Look it up. While they were at it, they gave us pagan recitals. Yeah, rehearsals for the Adversary. I didn't pull this out of my hat. If anyone wants to know the truth they will find it. That's a promise you can count on, not from me, from the Creator. Knock? Remember that verse? Seek?

anyhow, gotta drop by this thread occasionally to check on my buddy. till it runs it's course, and it will.

 

[RickyZ]

The answer is very simple; just read the new T. and you will learn what is left of the Old Cov. and what is droped. Judizers are those who want to enforce what the New testament has dropped. very simple . Love to all ,Hoffco

I think 'dropped' is the wrong word, that would mean some of Gods eternal word is no longer eternal. I would use the word fulfilled instead, because that's what Christ did. He didn't negate the law, He fulfilled it.

 

[Rockbysea]

Christ is not a covenant, Christ is a savior to those who would go to Him.

No…. your Christ is your make believe covenant consisting of a few portions of the old contract. Your make-believe covenant is your message not Christ. Also…. how can you be worshiping the real Christ when you told me that God created the earth in His image? According to scripture Jesus looked like a man not a sphere.

If you were of God you would not say "sick-freak doctrine of terror".

I attack this sick-freak doctrine of death because that is what it is.

You would keep to scripture. Christ said if you love me you will keep my commandments.

Yes and Christ has many, many commandments (only a tiny fraction were written down) and not one that was written down was the Sabbath

Christ said that I give you a new covenant.

Correct… but you keep pushing your own make-believe covenant.

 

[RedTent]

No…. your Christ is your make believe covenant consisting of a few portions of the old contract. Your make-believe covenant is your message not Christ. Also…. how can you be worshiping the real Christ when you told me that God created the earth in His image? According to scripture Jesus looked like a man not a sphere.

I attack this sick-freak doctrine of death because that is what it is.

Yes and Christ has many, many commandments (only a tiny fraction were written down) and not one that was written down was the Sabbath

Correct… but you keep pushing your own make-believe covenant.

I have said nothing that isn't scripture based. You have said nothing that is scripture based. Even that the NT does not mention the Sabbath is not scripture. That word is used 60 times in the KJV New Testament.

Although you are right, God created man in His image, God never said the earth was in His image. I was thinking of the passages in Job and Psalms that tell of the wonders of God's creation, and the order God runs this with. Surely, you haven't cancelled both those books?

I am not sure what is in your craw with your accusations. How could a covenant be make believe? How could covenants be old? A promise is a promise made today or thousands of years ago. How could my quoting scripture be not quoting scripture? You sound more like a bully than a servant of the Lord.

 

[danschance]

Redtent,

What did the death of Christ accomplish?

Does the death of Christ have an effect on the OT law?

 

[Hizikyah]

Redtent,

What did the death of Christ accomplish?

Does the death of Christ have an effect on the OT law?

the Levitical priesthood has been abolished, replaced with the priesthood after the order of Melchizedek, which Yahshua is now High Priest.

The true purpose of the sacrificial Law has been completed,

Sins have been cleansed for those who accept Messiah.

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

 

[Rockbysea]

You have said nothing that is scripture based. Even that the NT does not mention the Sabbath is not scripture. That word is used 60 times in the KJV New Testament.

Do you have problems reading and comprehending or are you being dishonest? Where did I say that there is no mention of the Sabbath in the NT? I said “…Christ has many, many commandments … and not one that was written down was the Sabbath.” Why are you twisting that to say that I claimed that “the NT doesn’t mention the Sabbath?” Can you not see the difference when someone says, “”Not one of Christ commandments was to keep the Sabbath” and “There is no mention of the Sabbath in the NT”?

God never said the earth was in His image.

Yes I know God never said the earth was in His image…. You did. And when I questioned you on it you gave me such an incoherent explanation for this belief that I just let it go.

How could a covenant be make believe?

Simple… You take a few commands that you can roughly obey out of the old covenant (A few Sabbaths, feasts and food laws) and then you use your imaginary Jesus to forgive you for not including the rest and voila: a make-believe covenant

How could covenants be old?

When a new one is created by the same author.

A promise is a promise made today or thousands of years ago. How could my quoting scripture be not quoting scripture?

Anyone can quote scripture… It’s the improper application of the quoted scripture to bolster a false doctrine.

You sound more like a bully than a servant of the Lord.

Bullies are those who attack others. Victims of bullies either cower or push back. This thread is titled “Attack of the Judaizers.” This thread is a push back to all these bullies who are terrorizing believers with threats of damnation for not keeping portions of the old covenant. You are the bully and I’m contributing to this thread to push back and you don’t like it.

 

[Hizikyah]

snip

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

 

[Rockbysea]

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

I'm not Jewish... don't want to respond to Jewish translators that are haters of Christ's message and use every possible trick to promote the old covenant in the NT. My translation says, "from the Law" not "of the Law." And "yodh"... wow that sounds like it was extracted right off an old scroll...

 

[Hizikyah]

I'm not Jewish... don't want to respond to Jewish translators that are haters of Christ's message and use every possible trick to promote the old covenant in the NT. My translation says, "from the Law" not "of the Law." And "yodh"... wow that sounds like it was extracted right off an old scroll...

Hater of Messiah message? So quoting it, standing on it, and speaking it is hating it?.....ok

Well the Messiah clearly spoke, you can choose your way or His.

Here are some translations, I hope one is sufficient:

New International Version
It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

New Living Translation
But that doesn't mean that the law has lost its force. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the smallest point of God's law to be overturned.

English Standard Version
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.

New American Standard Bible
"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

King James Bible
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter in the law to drop out.

International Standard Version
However, it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one stroke of a letter in the Law to be dropped.

NET Bible
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tiny stroke of a letter in the law to become void.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But it is easier for Heaven and earth to pass away than for one symbol of The Law to pass away.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
It is easier for the earth and the heavens to disappear than to drop a comma from Moses' Teachings.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass than one tittle of the law to fail.

King James 2000 Bible
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one dot of the law to fail.

American King James Version
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one pronunciation mark of the law to fail.

American Standard Version
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tittle of the law to fall.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fall.

Darby Bible Translation
But it is easier that the heaven and the earth should pass away than that one tittle of the law should fail.

English Revised Version
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tittle of the law to fall.

Webster's Bible Translation
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Weymouth New Testament
But it is easier for earth and sky to pass away than for one smallest detail of the Law to fall to the ground.

World English Bible
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tiny stroke of a pen in the law to fall.

Young's Literal Translation
and it is easier to the heaven and the earth to pass away, than of the law one tittle to fall.

 

[Rockbysea]

Hater of Messiah message? So quoting it, standing on it, and speaking it is hating it?.....ok

Well the Messiah clearly spoke, you can choose your way or His.

Here are some translations, I hope one is sufficient:

New International Version
It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

New Living Translation
But that doesn't mean that the law has lost its force. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the smallest point of God's law to be overturned.

English Standard Version
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.

New American Standard Bible
"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

King James Bible
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter in the law to drop out.

International Standard Version
However, it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one stroke of a letter in the Law to be dropped.

NET Bible
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tiny stroke of a letter in the law to become void.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But it is easier for Heaven and earth to pass away than for one symbol of The Law to pass away.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
It is easier for the earth and the heavens to disappear than to drop a comma from Moses' Teachings.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass than one tittle of the law to fail.

King James 2000 Bible
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one dot of the law to fail.

American King James Version
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one pronunciation mark of the law to fail.

American Standard Version
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tittle of the law to fall.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fall.

Darby Bible Translation
But it is easier that the heaven and the earth should pass away than that one tittle of the law should fail.

English Revised Version
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tittle of the law to fall.

Webster's Bible Translation
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Weymouth New Testament
But it is easier for earth and sky to pass away than for one smallest detail of the Law to fall to the ground.

World English Bible
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tiny stroke of a pen in the law to fall.

Young's Literal Translation
and it is easier to the heaven and the earth to pass away, than of the law one tittle to fall.

I went through this argument at great length already before and it's way too soon for me to repeat myself.... when heaven and earth passes so will the stroke of pen in the law and like the stroke of pen so will those who live under it.

 

[Hizikyah]

I went through this argument at great length already before and it's way too soon for me to repeat myself.... when heaven and earth passes so will the stroke of pen in the law and like the stroke of pen so will those who live under it.

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 ἀνομία anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness