Attack of the Judaizers

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J

john832

Senior Member
#1,461
May 31, 2013
11,389
193
63
#1,461
Elin said:
Likewise, the true purpose of the laws of defilement (persons, clothing, houses, food)

and the laws of purification, were for types and shadows to show the meaning of sin as spiritual defilement,

and its remedy to be through faith in the cleansing blood of Christ (Ro 3:25).

The sacrificial laws, as well as the defilement laws (persons, clothing, houses, food) and the purification laws were all temporary, and for the purpose of foreshadowing the nature and work of Christ Jesus.

The reality of them is now here, and the shadows, patterns, copies have passed away (Heb 9:10;
Col 2:16-17).

And actually, the priesthood was changed (Heb 7:12), it is the law with its commands and regulations
that was set aside (Heb 7:18-19) and abolished (Eph 2:15).
Click to expand...
So this is ceremonial?

Deu 23:12 "Also you shall have a place outside the camp, where you may go out;
Deu 23:13 and you shall have an implement among your equipment, and when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and turn and cover your refuse.

Or this...

Deu 22:8 "When you build a new house, then you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring guilt of bloodshed on your household if anyone falls from it.

Or the laws concerning quarantine?

Lev 15:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'When any man has a discharge from his body, his discharge is unclean.
Lev 15:3 And this shall be his uncleanness in regard to his discharge—whether his body runs with his discharge, or his body is stopped up by his discharge, it is his uncleanness.
Lev 15:4 Every bed is unclean on which he who has the discharge lies, and everything on which he sits shall be unclean.
Lev 15:5 And whoever touches his bed shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening.
Lev 15:6 He who sits on anything on which he who has the discharge sat shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening.
Lev 15:7 And he who touches the body of him who has the discharge shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening.
Lev 15:8 If he who has the discharge spits on him who is clean, then he shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening.
Lev 15:9 Any saddle on which he who has the discharge rides shall be unclean.
Lev 15:10 Whoever touches anything that was under him shall be unclean until evening. He who carries any of those things shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening.
Lev 15:11 And whomever the one who has the discharge touches, and has not rinsed his hands in water, he shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening.
Lev 15:12 The vessel of earth that he who has the discharge touches shall be broken, and every vessel of wood shall be rinsed in water.

these are health and safety laws.
 
JesusLives

JesusLives

Senior Member
#1,462
Oct 11, 2013
14,554
2,176
113
#1,462
Rockbysea said:
I went through this argument at great length already before and it's way too soon for me to repeat myself.... when heaven and earth passes so will the stroke of pen in the law and like the stroke of pen so will those who live under it.
Click to expand...

So what does one do with that pesky little word Obey?
 
J

john832

Senior Member
#1,464
May 31, 2013
11,389
193
63
#1,464
JesusLives said:
So what does one do with that pesky little word Obey?
Click to expand...
Why to hear some around here, you do not have to obey, Jesus did it all for you. You are free to live anyway you wish, God is just thrilled that you have deigned to say the magic words.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#1,465
#1,465
This is good, confession and testimony; Without them we will not be saved. "if we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths Jesus as Lord, we will be saved". Rom.10: 9-10 Jesus is "the sourse of eternal life to as many as obey Him". Heb.5:9. Even water baptism "saves", because we must give a good confession "of a good conscience" .1Pet.3:21 And this is why James 2:24 says "a man is justified by works and not by faith only". Hoffco
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#1,466
#1,466
This is good, confession and testimony time; Without them we will not be saved. "if we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths Jesus as Lord, we will be saved". Rom.10: 9-10 Jesus is "the sourse of eternal life to as many as obey Him". Heb.5:9. Even water baptism "saves", because we must give a good confession "of a good conscience" .1Pet.3:21 And this is why James 2:24 says "a man is justified by works and not by faith only". Hoffco
 
S

Sophia

Guest
#1,467
#1,467
john832 said:
Why to hear some around here, you do not have to obey, Jesus did it all for you. You are free to live anyway you wish, God is just thrilled that you have deigned to say the magic words.
Click to expand...
well... He did do it all for us.
But that doesn't mean we can live lawlessly.

If you are saying that you can go to hell after Christ saved you from it, you are contradicting yourself, and the Word.
However, if a person says that we can go on sinning, then they have no faith. And so they just weren't even saved.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
J

john832

Senior Member
#1,468
May 31, 2013
11,389
193
63
#1,468
Sophia said:
well... He did do it all for us.
But that doesn't mean we can live lawlessly.

If you are saying that you can go to hell after Christ saved you from it, you are contradicting yourself, and the Word.
However, if a person says that we can go on sinning, then they have no faith. And so they just weren't even saved.
Click to expand...
OK, then explain this...

Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

and this...

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#1,469
#1,469
This is why we must STOP saying only half of the truth, a half truth is a full lie! This "faith only" is the tool of the "angel of light" Satan, using us to defeat ourselves and do His work of damnation for him. This is the main element of the apostacy of the Church today. The requirement of salvation has always been, Repent, trust and obey all that God has revealed for our age. Don't add or substrat. Warren Wersby is the worse "angel of light" that Satan has in his employment, and Chuck swindol is a runner up. And of course these Judizers are "angels of light" also. We must always consider all the lawful teachings of the Old t. as legetiment for us to day, the health laws are a must for us; But the new cleansers that we have ,like Bleach and hydogene peroxide, antibacteria soaps, etc. are fast ways of cleaning up after defilements. Hoffco
 
J

john832

Senior Member
#1,470
May 31, 2013
11,389
193
63
#1,470
Hoffco said:
This is why we must STOP saying only half of the truth, a half truth is a full lie! This "faith only" is the tool of the "angel of light" Satan, using us to defeat ourselves and do His work of damnation for him. This is the main element of the apostacy of the Church today. The requirement of salvation has always been, Repent, trust and obey all that God has revealed for our age. Don't add or substrat. Warren Wersby is the worse "angel of light" that Satan has in his employment, and Chuck swindol is a runner up. And of course these Judizers are "angels of light" also. We must always consider all the lawful teachings of the Old t. as legetiment for us to day, the health laws are a must for us; But the new cleansers that we have ,like Bleach and hydogene peroxide, antibacteria soaps, etc. are fast ways of cleaning up after defilements. Hoffco
Click to expand...
We must adhere to the entirety of scripture. Obedience does not remove the guilt for breaking God's Laws in the past. That is grace...

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Neither is grace a free pass to continue breaking God's Laws. We must obey. Grace is the means of forgiving us and cleansing us when we slip and fall. God does not freely extend grace to one who is unrepentant...

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

But God's great mercy and love is extended to those who are striving to obey in the form of grace.
 
E

Elin

Banned
#1,471
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#1,471
john832 said:
So this is ceremonial?

Deu 23:12 "Also you shall have a place outside the camp, where you may go out;
Deu 23:13 and you shall have an implement among your equipment, and when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and turn and cover your refuse.
Click to expand...
Sanitary regulations for Israel's military camp were not ceremonial laws.

Ceremonial laws were in Lev.

Or this...

Deu 22:8 "When you build a new house, then you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring guilt of bloodshed on your household if anyone falls from it.
Click to expand...
Building codes were not ceremonial laws.

Ceremonial laws were in Lev.

Or the laws concerning quarantine?

Lev 15:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'When any man has a discharge from his body, his discharge is unclean.
Lev 15:3 And this shall be his uncleanness in regard to his discharge—whether his body runs with his discharge, or his body is stopped up by his discharge, it is his uncleanness.
Lev 15:4 Every bed is unclean on which he who has the discharge lies, and everything on which he sits shall be unclean.
Lev 15:5 And whoever touches his bed shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening.
Lev 15:6 He who sits on anything on which he who has the discharge sat shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening.
Lev 15:7 And he who touches the body of him who has the discharge shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening.
Lev 15:8 If he who has the discharge spits on him who is clean, then he shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening.
Lev 15:9 Any saddle on which he who has the discharge rides shall be unclean.
Lev 15:10 Whoever touches anything that was under him shall be unclean until evening. He who carries any of those things shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening.
Lev 15:11 And whomever the one who has the discharge touches, and has not rinsed his hands in water, he shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening.
Lev 15:12 The vessel of earth that he who has the discharge touches shall be broken, and every vessel of wood shall be rinsed in water.
Click to expand...
Yes, the Levitical laws were the ceremonial laws, and those of Lev 15 were the ceremonial defilement and purification laws.

All discharges were defiling; i.e., sweat, sperm, menstrual blood, birthing, spittal, etc., etc., etc.

and had to be purified according to the purification laws.

It's not about health, and it's not about morality.

It's about patterning the meaning of sin as spiritual defilement, from which God's people must be cleansed,
that apart from the new birth, everything man does is sin, because he does not believe.

I'm having a hard time taking you seriously with such weak understanding of Scripture and erroneous application of it.
 
E

Elin

Banned
#1,472
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#1,472
john832 said:
Why to hear some around here, you do not have to obey, Jesus did it all for you. You are free to live anyway you wish, God is just thrilled that you have deigned to say the magic words.
Click to expand...
And you misunderstand Scripture the same way you misunderstand what others say.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#1,473
#1,473
This is why Noah, David, Mary , Joseph, Zacharius, Elizabeth all found grace in the eyes of the Lord.! They were obedient to all the known will of God for them. But for us, the known will of God for us has changed drastily. The Grace of God: power and love, is what saved us from our sin, and grace is what makes us obey Jesus in order to follow through with the beginning of grace in the new birth. Birth makes us alive, and enable us to repent ,trust and obey, Very simple. Don't complciate salvation with gnostic thoughts, extra from the Bible; like, "freewill" and "faith only" or Jesus as Savior first and latter as Lord.Hoffco
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#1,474
Jul 2, 2011
21,496
6,748
113
#1,474
Does anyone see the irony in the fact that we must confess we obey our Father, whether we call Him by the name of the faith of Abraham, that being Yahweh, or we call Him by one of the names from the nations?

Does anyone see something nefarious developing in the minds of some who believe they are brethren?
 
E

Elin

Banned
#1,475
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#1,475
john832 said:
OK, then explain this...

Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

and this...

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Click to expand...
James is saying that true faith, which is the faith that saves, obeys.

If there is no obedience, the faith is not true, therefore, it does not save, because it is counterfeit
(Mt 7:21-23).

It's not complicated.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#1,476
#1,476
This is why Noah, David, Mary , Joseph, Zacharius, Elizabeth all found grace in the eyes of the Lord.! They were obedient to all the known will of God for them. But for us, the known will of God for us has changed drastily. The Grace of God: power and love, is what saved us from our sin, and grace is what makes us obey Jesus in order to follow through with the beginning of grace in the new birth. Birth makes us alive, and enable us to repent ,trust and obey, Very simple. Don't complciate salvation with gnostic thoughts, extra from the Bible; like, "freewill" and "faith only" or Jesus as Savior first and latter as Lord. John832, I would remind you, that you are leaving out God's POWER in regeneration the Makes us alive, it is resurrection power that saves us, not just "mercy and love", they are helpless to save with out God's power. Hoffco
 
E

Elin

Banned
#1,477
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#1,477
john832 said:
We must adhere to the entirety of scripture. Obedience does not remove the guilt for breaking God's Laws in the past. That is grace...

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Neither is grace a free pass to continue breaking God's Laws. We must obey. Grace is the means of forgiving us and cleansing us when we slip and fall. God does not freely extend grace to one who is unrepentant...

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

But God's great mercy and love is extended to those who are striving to obey in the form of grace.
Click to expand...
Correction. . .wrong emphasis.

God's great mercy and love is extended to those of true faith by grace.
 
J

john832

Senior Member
#1,478
May 31, 2013
11,389
193
63
#1,478
Elin said:
And you misunderstand Scripture the same way you misunderstand what others say.
Click to expand...
OK, then school us. Show me why Christ's plain statement here is wrong...

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Mat 19:18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, " 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER,' 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,' 'YOU SHALL NOT STEAL,' 'YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS,'
Mat 19:19 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER,' and, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "
 
E

Elin

Banned
#1,479
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#1,479
john832 said:
OK, then school us. Show me why Christ's plain statement here is wrong...

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Mat 19:18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, " 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER,' 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,' 'YOU SHALL NOT STEAL,' 'YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS,'
Mat 19:19 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER,' and, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "
Click to expand...
Okay, I can do that too.

Show me why Christ's plain statement here is wrong:

"On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Mt 22:40)

You will never understand the Scriptures until you understand them in reconciliation.

So get crackin'. . .er, reckonin', that is.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#1,480
#1,480
Thanks to JaumesJ, ,nefarious, (not right , evil, wicked) that is a very colorful word, I will start using it. The sound of it is atrosious,?? what ever, some thing else to fill my mind with mischevious thoughts, hah ha.LOL. I must be ware of the workings of the OLD MAN, sorry, I get carry away ,at times, it is 3:30 am, here. Hoffco LOL.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.