Attack of the Judaizers

[phil112]

Originally Posted by Elin
You promise that is your final question?

According to Jesus, the same ones you can break when you "love your neighbor as yourself." (Mt 22:39)

Originally Posted by Hizikyah Nice way to avoid the question. Have a nice day.

Why do you resist truth so much?
elin answered your question. Tell me what Romans 14 means verse by verse. You can't. You avoid truth. You love law. To say what that chapter means you have to acknowledge your errors. Christ said obey His commandments (2 of them) the same way He obeyed Gods commandments. He did not say for us to obey Gods commandments. Christ did that for us and simplified our salvation by His blood.
This scripture fits you to a tee..........Take a long bath and use some Q-Tips on those ears.
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 

[danschance]

4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” Acts 15


Here the Judaizers wanted the gentiles to observe the Mosaic law.

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Here is how they responded:

10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” Acts 15


Wow... Not even the slightest mention of obeying the sabbath, eating kosher, etc. They said nothing about keeping laws either. They actually had disparaging remarks about the mosaic laws by saying: " a yoke the Jews could not bear". Even worse, even more damaging is that Peter said: ..why do you put God to the test.. The Judaizers of today think it is wonderful to select a few of the Mosaic laws the like and try to live by them but it is heresy, it is putting God to the test. Yeah, right....good luck with that.

 

[JesusLives]

This will probably be my last post to this thread since seems most everyone has stood firm on their position. Like watching a dog chase his tail in a circle. So I will go out with why I believe the 10 Commandments stand firm, valid, relevant.

I have noticed in reading the Bible that when something is important to God He gets involved.

Examples

God spoke most of creation into being - there was nothing He spoke and there was something.
But when it came to creating man instead of speaking He got down in the dirt and formed man and then breathed in man the breath of life and man became a living soul.

When the people thought they would get creative after the flood and build the Tower of Babel to avoid a future flood. God came down and felt it was important enough to confound the languages and people scattered on the earth.

I believe the 10 Commandments are more important than the other laws. Because God told Moses to write down all the other laws that He dictated to him. But I just can't get past the point that the 10 were so important to God that He didn't let man make a mistake in writing them down. God Himself on two tables of stone wrote them with His own finger. To me that means that the 10 Commandments are very important. They are what God expects of us, His house rules, the rules He runs His government off of. I have said in many of my previous posts that NO the 10 Commandments won't save us, But they are important because they show us what sin is. They were not nailed to the cross because it is what God still expects His children to obey. Again - Jesus did it for us - we are saved by Grace - Jesus sacrifice on the cross - His cleansing Blood. But the 10 Commandments are still valid they are not thrown out as they are still the rules of God's government.

I LOVE you and I go in peace and my voice is now silenced from this thread, this is my belief and I do not believe God is going to condemn me to hell for it. If you feel I've attacked you I apologize. I just want to listen to God and when He says to me if you love Me keep (obey) My commandments - out of love to Him I want to obey.

Enjoy chasing your tails....Joking please don't go serious on me here.

 

[JaumeJ]

Chasing my tail here. Jesus teaches to obey the commandments. As for condemning to hell, I do not believe anyone here would or has done such an heinous thing. T

his is not maintaining a position, this is beieving Jesus Christ, Yeshua.

Even in Revelation He teaches the value of obeying the commandments.

The ones etched in stone were placed in the inward parts of those saved, written on their hearts, and they love to obey God.

I know I love to, though I have tripped along the way. There are those here who apparently have never tripped because they may do whatever they choose to do.. Kind of like the remnant in Judah and Jerusalem who went to Egypt....Jeremiah 44. They told Yahweh what was true, and that was the end of that, and them.

 

[Hoffco]

I know we are not saved by our obediece nor by our faith. It is the Grace of God alone the transforms us into saints in the new birth, and justifies us by grace alone by the blood of Jesus alone. But the Grace that saves us ( born of God and forgiven by God). teaches us that God has work for us to do . the first workis believing on Jesus the 2nd is obeying God's commandments with out which,( faith and works) we will not be saved. Hoffco

 

[danschance]

I know we are not saved by our obediece nor by our faith. It is the Grace of God alone the transforms us into saints in the new birth, and justifies us by grace alone by the blood of Jesus alone. But the Grace that saves us ( born of God and forgiven by God). teaches us that God has work for us to do . the first workis believing on Jesus the 2nd is obeying God's commandments with out which,( faith and works) we will not be saved. Hoffco

We are saved by grace. Grace is the unmerited/undeserved favor of God. There is nothing we can do to earn salvation as it is the free gift of God.

 

[phil112]

.................... the first workis believing on Jesus the 2nd is obeying God's commandments with out which,( faith and works) we will not be saved. Hoffco

Words mean something and we always want to use the ones that best describe the point we are trying to get across.

Think about what you said. Believing on Christ is not "a work". And certainly grace doesn't teach us to do that. Gods' spirit does that. Grace is not available until we believe in Christ.

And the second? Not even accurate. Obeying Christs' commandments is what we are to do.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

 

[JaumeJ]

Believing Yeshua is work indeed, and this is what saves anyone.

It seems there is one group not understanding the other. Those who have the gall to say others who believe in obeying Yahweh are not living in grace, which is tantamount to saying they will all go straight to hell.

The other group who has never condemned that first group for being disobedient, rather posting pleas to obey the Father.

I believe anyone who believes Yeshua is saved, but those who have convinced themselves that it is part of grace to disobey the commandments are going to live eternity being somewhat less than those who not only teach to obey the commandments, but do all they are able to obey themselves, knowing all the while the real salvation is Yeshua, His cleansing Blood.

So I do not believe you folks who claim you do not need to obey the commandmetns are going to hell, that belief excludes those who teach against the commandments with evil intent.

Why should we, who believe the Lamb of Yahweh, and obey what He taught be told by those who do not know, that we are not living in grace. This is a lie. First outright, and second by their own teachings. Until Yahweh tells us, the obedient, not to obey Him, because we love Yeshua, we will continue, without ceasing. This taught by the Way, the Truth, and the Light, amen.

 

[Kerry]

If have faith in Christ, then grace abounds to me. If I remove my faith from Christ and Him crucified and place it in law (works). Then sin revives in me and leads me captive and the end thereof is death. Is the law bad, of course not, if not for the law I would have not known sin. If I had not heard you should not commit adultery, I would have not know that it is sin. Therefore the law is good and Holy, But in it, is the curse of death. For if a man intends to keep the law, he must keep the whole law and makes the cross of Christ of no effect for Christ kept the perfect law and I be in Christ then Christ be in me therefore by cross of christ righteousness is imputed to me.

Now what most do not realise, is the cross as it pertains to sanctification. By faith in the cross, this allows the Holy Spirit to work in me or to cause me little by little to conform to Gods morel code, which is higher than law. Jesus said " you have heard that thou shalt mot commit adultery. I say that if you look at a women with lust in your heart, you have already committed adultery and are guilty". Again if you look at man with malice in your heart then you have already committed murder.

Does this help any. besides God goes forward and not backward. We have a new and better covenant for what I could not do. Christ did for me and by faith I have fulfilled the law for christ is in me. It is no longer I that live, but Christ through me. The just shall live by faith. Consider Ruth a moabitess, If a Moabite is in Israel he (or she) is not come in the congregation of the Lord until the 10th generation, then he may enter the congregation of the Lord. But, because of Ruth's faith, she was accepted immediately and an ancestress to the Holy Christ. Faith always trumps law. The same is said for the harlot Rahab. No harlot was ever allowed to enter the congregation of the Lord. But by her faith she (a gentile) is an ancestress to the Holy Christ. By faith.

Besides who would wan't keep this law. If your son is rebellious and will not heed your voice, then you are to lay hold of him and bring him before the elders and say that my is rebellious and will not heed my voice. Then he shall be stoned with stones till he die.

 

[JaumeJ]

All I can say is balderdash! When I got to the place where you said "God goes forward, and not backward," as if He were a man. God is the same always. As far as the story of this age is concerned, yes, it does continue, but it will end.

Continue in your lawless form of grace, and when the beast comes, you will be ready to greet him, for he is also called the lawless one. Please do not ask about this, because you already know being lawless is being a sinful one.

 

[Kerry]

I think you missed the main point. It is impossible for a man to keep the law in his flesh. That is to say by his own willpower, education, and so on. However, by faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit works in me to conform to the likeness of Christ who is perfect. Not that I will ever be perfect until I stand before Him in Heaven then i will be perfect. All by faith.

No man has ever been able to keep the law without breaking it and the law provides no means of reconciliation to one who has broken it which all men have. Therefore we need a savior and that savior is Christ and Him crucified and by faith in Him I am saved not only saved I am being sanctified (set apart) by the Holy spirit by faith.

Now grace is not a license for sin. All things are lawful for me but all things are not helpful. If I in my liberty eat pork in the presence of my brother who believes it a sin. Then I have sinned because I have caused him to stumble. If I have a glass of wine in front of my brother who thinks it sin, then I have sinned and caused him to stumble. Grace is not freedom to sin. That doctrine is in error. The wages of sin is death in the OT and the NT. No truly born again child of God desires to sin for we are not born again unto sin. But, God loving people are snared into the captivity of sin by placing there faith in something else other than the cross. Because that is the only thing God will accept and nothing else. No flesh can please God. It is by my Spirit saith the Lord.

 

[vic1980]

Psalms 119:20 My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times.

Psalm 119:21 Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.

Psalm 119:22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.

Psalm 119:23 Princes also did sit and speak against me: but thy servant did meditate in thy statutes.

Reminder : The Sheep & The Goats

KJV

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

NLT

Matthew 25:41 Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.

When did God Change ?

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

God Bless

 

[JaumeJ]

Some people will not hear what was spoken by Yeshua. Anyone who teaches against the least of these will be least in heaven. Are you one of those who would rather send others not conforming to your word to hell? I know I am not one. Now, pay attention to all of the teachings if you do not understand about obedience, and that is what I have done with you. I do not condemn any who believe the way you do, but you certainly selcect only what pleases you from the Word, it is impossible for you to dialogue with anyone who may have learned other than what you seem to have learned..

What is written about actions with a clear conscience in the sight of God? What is written about not being aware of a law when it is broken? Do you know? I do, so stop buggine others with your total intolerance and allow for others to live in grace while they obey what they have learned from Yeshua. This is basic in relations as a believer. Learn it, please.

 

[Kerry]

I do not condemn you my friend. There are only two people who can condemn a person. Yourself and God. I will be obedient to the Word of God as Best I can and as the Holy Spirit works in me to conform me. Because I no that there is no good thing in my flesh. Only Be Sure to make Christ and Him crucified the main object of your faith and you will do well my brother. I will not be a stumbling block to you. But, please be careful. For to the Greek ( wise) the Cross is foolishness and to the Jew a stumbling block.

 

[vic1980]

Those that forsake God law make belivers vex in spirit as Lot & King David

Psalms 119:52-53 I have remembered Your ordinances from of old, O LORD, And comfort myself. 53Burning indignation has seized me because of the wicked, Who forsake Your law.

Reminder also on King David

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Now onto God people true Jew,Christians.

Romans 2:29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God.

And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.

God Bless

 

[JaumeJ]

Vic, your post brings to mind when Paul was vexed in spirit by the young damsel who followed him around for so many days. She had an evil spirit, although it did speak some truth through her. Paul being vexed cast the spirit out, but this displease her masters, and, I suppose, also any who liked to hear her babble.

 

[JaumeJ]

When a person has chosen evil over good, he has condemned himself. It is our Father's desire that no soul should perish. You judge yourself out of your own mouth. I will never be wise in the sight of my heavenly Father except for having chosen to follow Yeshua, His Only Begotten Son, and attempting to do what He says and not just say it. God is good all of the time

I do not condemn you my friend. There are only two people who can condemn a person. Yourself and God. I will be obedient to the Word of God as Best I can and as the Holy Spirit works in me to conform me. Because I no that there is no good thing in my flesh. Only Be Sure to make Christ and Him crucified the main object of your faith and you will do well my brother. I will not be a stumbling block to you. But, please be careful. For to the Greek ( wise) the Cross is foolishness and to the Jew a stumbling block.

 

[BradC]

Some people will not hear what was spoken by Yeshua. Anyone who teaches against the least of these will be least in heaven. Are you one of those who would rather send others not conforming to your word to hell? I know I am not one. Now, pay attention to all of the teachings if you do not understand about obedience, and that is what I have done with you. I do not condemn any who believe the way you do, but you certainly selcect only what pleases you from the Word, it is impossible for you to dialogue with anyone who may have learned other than what you seem to have learned..

What is written about actions with a clear conscience in the sight of God? What is written about not being aware of a law when it is broken? Do you know? I do, so stop buggine others with your total intolerance and allow for others to live in grace while they obey what they have learned from Yeshua. This is basic in relations as a believer. Learn it, please.

In Matthew 5,6 and 7 the Lord Jesus Christ gives many commandments to the people which his disciples were among. Those commandments were heard for the first time and the people were amazed at his doctrine. Can you tell me why Jesus left out the Holy Spirit in commanding the people these things? Was it possible for them to keep any of these commandments without the Holy Spirit enabling them? And in keeping these commandments from the greatest to the least would they be able to exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees? Would the people who kept these commandments gain entrance into the kingdom of heaven? Grace is also never mentioned by our Lord in these chapters.

Did he expect the people to live a life of keeping his 'but I say unto thee' doctrine of commandments without the grace of God? This was surely a boat load of commandments to put upon the people for them to keep and not break. A people who were weak in their flesh and sinners by nature and probably compared their lives to the scribes and Pharisees. Was this his intention or did he give these people all these holy commandments so that they would have to come to him, cease from their own labors in trying to keep from breaking them all, and find rest for their soul through grace and the Holy Spirit. There is no way he could have expected them to keep and not break all of these knowing the sin that was in their deceitful and desperately wicked hearts. Unless they were to receive grace and a new life from above, how could they keep from breaking even the least of those commandments? Surely you don't believe that their righteousness would come from keeping and not breaking these commandments, but maybe you do in a measure and perhaps you would like others to believe that also.

 

[john832]

In Matthew 5,6 and 7 the Lord Jesus Christ gives many commandments to the people which his disciples were among. Those commandments were heard for the first time and the people were amazed at his doctrine.

First of all, He was speaking to His disciples, not the multitudes...

Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him.

Secondly, they had heard these Commandments before...

Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'

What they had not heard was the magnification or exaltation of the Law Christ gave them...

Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for His righteousness' sake; He will exalt the law and make it honorable.

Notice that He exalted or magnified the Law? He did not change it or do away with it or make it of none effect by "fulfilling" it, He exalted it.

 

[JaumeJ]

After the Holy Spirit enters anyone the true battles begin. No one is given the ability to obey all the commandments to the letter, this is a foolish notion. We have the commandments written on our hearts and we obey as best we are able. Yeshua is the One Who gives us grace for when we should falter.

As for Jesus giving many commandments, He is not nor ever has been stupid, and He knows those to whom He speaks who receive Him hear His voice and understand. He is not a lawyer, nor are His children. We all know when He says to obey the commandments, He means all of them, even should it be He mentions only two or three. Only the enemy would take this to mean the others are no longer valid.

Read the Word, know the gospel of Yeshua, and be a doer, not a hearer, and being a doer is obeying what is right. Please do not come back with the edit of the Ten Commandments, that would be a lie.

In Matthew 5,6 and 7 the Lord Jesus Christ gives many commandments to the people which his disciples were among. Those commandments were heard for the first time and the people were amazed at his doctrine. Can you tell me why Jesus left out the Holy Spirit in commanding the people these things? Was it possible for them to keep any of these commandments without the Holy Spirit enabling them? And in keeping these commandments from the greatest to the least would they be able to exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees? Would the people who kept these commandments gain entrance into the kingdom of heaven? Grace is also never mentioned by our Lord in these chapters.

Did he expect the people to live a life of keeping his 'but I say unto thee' doctrine of commandments without the grace of God? This was surely a boat load of commandments to put upon the people for them to keep and not break. A people who were weak in their flesh and sinners by nature and probably compared their lives to the scribes and Pharisees. Was this his intention or did he give these people all these holy commandments so that they would have to come to him, cease from their own labors in trying to keep from breaking them all, and find rest for their soul through grace and the Holy Spirit. There is no way he could have expected them to keep and not break all of these knowing the sin that was in their deceitful and desperately wicked hearts. Unless they were to receive grace and a new life from above, how could they keep from breaking even the least of those commandments? Surely you don't believe that their righteousness would come from keeping and not breaking these commandments, but maybe you do in a measure and perhaps you would like others to believe that also.