No, that is not the conclusion to draw here my friend. I am firmly convinced that after the resurrection, our character is fixed so that we never sin. What I am showing is that the Laws of God were in force at the time of Lucifer's rebellion and fall. He was a murderer (in his heart) and a liar. The same Laws that governed then, govern now and will govern for all time. It will always be wrong to murder or lie.
Why the "NT-only, grace-only" theology is off the mark
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Although I guess nothing elsa has to be said, I'd like to back up this: "...Deuteronomy 18: 15 "ADONAI will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him..."
God spoke to John the Baptist and the multitude around him and Jesus saying: "Listen to Him" and when jesus was with Peter, James and John, God also spoke about Jesus and said: "Listen to Him"... Iḿ afraid I listen to my ideas, my indoctrination, those man-made teaching, rather than the evidence that Jesus is not GOD, but His Son, His chosen and sent messenger.
God spoke to John the Baptist and the multitude around him and Jesus saying: "Listen to Him" and when jesus was with Peter, James and John, God also spoke about Jesus and said: "Listen to Him"... Iḿ afraid I listen to my ideas, my indoctrination, those man-made teaching, rather than the evidence that Jesus is not GOD, but His Son, His chosen and sent messenger.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
This brings up a question I have. Can we keep the law of God spiritually without keeping it literally?
Here is one I will quote because I can't say it any better than he: Can We Keep the Law of God Spiritually Without Keeping It Literally?
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
This brings up a question I have. Can we keep the law of God spiritually without keeping it literally?
Here is one I will quote because I can't say it any better than he: Can We Keep the Law of God Spiritually Without Keeping It Literally?
C
Perhaps, this will help.
Rom_3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal_3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal_3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
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God's intent was for them to do them to receive righteousness:
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Yes, He placed them on the heart, but they HAD to DO them through the flesh and is why Jesus said that we are to die to the flesh, because apparently doing them through the flesh did not work, otherwise Jesus would not have taught the need to die to the flesh. I believe, I hope someone can back this up, Jesus taught obedience through our spirit. By me saying "obedience", I mean that we ARE to hearken to the will of God. By me saying, 'will of God", I mean, "the moral laws of God".
And what happened to those who did not keep (do, perform, act out)/remained faithful to the whole Law?
By faith in a coming Messiah with His promises (Heb 11:13), they did according to what the Law said. If they did not fulfill (do, act out, performed) the Law, would they have received their Messiah? No! As far as that goes, the same for us, if we do not love would we receive the Messiah? No! So then, I guess salvation is based on works. I think I have been dubbed into believing that faith saves, because without works, faith is nothing. But, then again, if it is faith which is acted upon, then those things which we do are not based on our effort to received salvation but are done because of that faith.
But, if we act so as to receive righteousness, then are we not working for our salvation? Perhaps, this is what I mean by "work" and how the Covenant of Law required (see the verses above about how they were to do the works of the Law) those who was and who place themselves under it to work for their righteousness. When I say, "righteousness", I mean to have a right standing before God. If one seeks to have a right standing before God through works, then that would leave out faith.
Are we to be faithful to the Law or to the Lawgiver? If my righteousness is through the Law, then would that not mean that the righteousness found in Jesus would be contrary, seeing that God later on says that righteousness is through faith.
This is a dilemma. How can I be faithful to the Law and faithful to the Son if they both speak differently on how to obtain my righteousness?
Rom_3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal_3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal_3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
.
.
..
.
God's intent was for them to do them to receive righteousness:
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Yes, He placed them on the heart, but they HAD to DO them through the flesh and is why Jesus said that we are to die to the flesh, because apparently doing them through the flesh did not work, otherwise Jesus would not have taught the need to die to the flesh. I believe, I hope someone can back this up, Jesus taught obedience through our spirit. By me saying "obedience", I mean that we ARE to hearken to the will of God. By me saying, 'will of God", I mean, "the moral laws of God".
And what happened to those who did not keep (do, perform, act out)/remained faithful to the whole Law?
By faith in a coming Messiah with His promises (Heb 11:13), they did according to what the Law said. If they did not fulfill (do, act out, performed) the Law, would they have received their Messiah? No! As far as that goes, the same for us, if we do not love would we receive the Messiah? No! So then, I guess salvation is based on works. I think I have been dubbed into believing that faith saves, because without works, faith is nothing. But, then again, if it is faith which is acted upon, then those things which we do are not based on our effort to received salvation but are done because of that faith.
But, if we act so as to receive righteousness, then are we not working for our salvation? Perhaps, this is what I mean by "work" and how the Covenant of Law required (see the verses above about how they were to do the works of the Law) those who was and who place themselves under it to work for their righteousness. When I say, "righteousness", I mean to have a right standing before God. If one seeks to have a right standing before God through works, then that would leave out faith.
Are we to be faithful to the Law or to the Lawgiver? If my righteousness is through the Law, then would that not mean that the righteousness found in Jesus would be contrary, seeing that God later on says that righteousness is through faith.
This is a dilemma. How can I be faithful to the Law and faithful to the Son if they both speak differently on how to obtain my righteousness?
C
Sorry, I didn't read the first post in the thread. But I took the point you want to get across to mean that we shouldn't just teach the Gospel but also every teaching that God has given us, including his commandments. If that's the case, I agree. God revealed to us the way to him and the way to salvation. He doesn't just teach us how to become his children; he teaches us how to act like his children. 
I hope your teaching is not that works are necessary for salvation, though.
I hope your teaching is not that works are necessary for salvation, though.
I would like to hear your comments on this. If what TheAristocat is saying is what you are saying, then like him, I agree.
Sorry, I didn't read the first post in the thread. But I took the point you want to get across to mean that we shouldn't just teach the Gospel but also every teaching that God has given us, including his commandments. If that's the case, I agree. God revealed to us the way to him and the way to salvation. He doesn't just teach us how to become his children; he teaches us how to act like his children.
I hope your teaching is not that works are necessary for salvation, though.
I hope your teaching is not that works are necessary for salvation, though.
I really like the way you said "He doesn't just teach us how to become his children; he teaches us how to act like his children." Sweet. We are known by our family surname. Isa 44:5 One shall say, I am the LORD'S; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel.
C
I agree with all the verses you quoted but I don't know if they have anything to do the fact that the law is to be on the heart - same for the Israelites (Deut 6:6), same for the believers in the new covenant (Jer 31:31-34).
No one is justified by works of the law but by faith - same for Abraham, same for David and same for believers in the new covenant.
No one is justified by works of the law but by faith - same for Abraham, same for David and same for believers in the new covenant.
Didn't Rom 3-4 teaches righteousness through faith using Abraham as an example?
Didn't Rom 10:3 just say they (the Israelites) did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own i.e. they did not submit to God's righteousness?
Wasn't Rom 10:6-8 quoted from Deut 30:12-14 and both says "the word is near you - it's in your mouth and in your heart"?
Fact is, most tried outwardly and failed. Fact is, some like David, loved the law inwardly and was able to obey for the most part of their life. Fact is, when they sinned, they knew there's redemption.
No one in history could keep the whole law but it does not mean no one was faithful (e.g. David). We know in the book to the Hebrews that animal sacrifices were a type to the sacrifice of Christ and all human in history are saved by His blood i.e. if we believe.
I look at it this way - Salvation is He rescued us from the bondage of sin. We are on the way to the promised land and by faith we walk the walk until we get there.
I totally agree here.
Like you said, righteousness is to have a right standing before God. If we do have that, we'd love His law and love His Son even more for He's the only way out when we fail.
Didn't Rom 10:3 just say they (the Israelites) did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own i.e. they did not submit to God's righteousness?
Wasn't Rom 10:6-8 quoted from Deut 30:12-14 and both says "the word is near you - it's in your mouth and in your heart"?
Fact is, most tried outwardly and failed. Fact is, some like David, loved the law inwardly and was able to obey for the most part of their life. Fact is, when they sinned, they knew there's redemption.
No one in history could keep the whole law but it does not mean no one was faithful (e.g. David). We know in the book to the Hebrews that animal sacrifices were a type to the sacrifice of Christ and all human in history are saved by His blood i.e. if we believe.
I look at it this way - Salvation is He rescued us from the bondage of sin. We are on the way to the promised land and by faith we walk the walk until we get there.
I totally agree here.
Like you said, righteousness is to have a right standing before God. If we do have that, we'd love His law and love His Son even more for He's the only way out when we fail.
C
Let us not forget that the Hebrews said the following concerning their righteousness (right standing before God), by which justification (the reversal of the adverse sentencing attached to the Law, namely: death) is received, seeing that righteousness is what caused one to stand properly before God and thus, not adversely sentenced from His presence:
And they who fulfilled the Law, down to proper sacrifice, found their justification (reversal of death) when Jesus came and delivered them from Hades:
With the understanding of Deut 6:25, where it said that their righteousness was by observing to DO ALL as they were commanded by the LORD under the Law, we can see now that God's righteousness is shown apart from the Law's righteousness:
I agree that if one believes in God and acts upon that faith and in essence, carry out His will, then that is imputed as righteousness. But, under the Law, one had to be physically obedient to the written Law, as oppose to one being spiritually obedient to the leading of the Spirit.
Yes, the laws they added was not how God said it was to be. But, that does not nullify the many mentions of: works of the Law. That is, deeds of the Law. Deeds are done in the flesh and the Law said to do this or that to obtain your righteousness, as oppose to Christ Law of Love which states that Love is done because of faith, not because we are seeking righteousness.
Some did keep the whole Law (by implementing physical sacrifices). Otherwise, there would have been no righteous dead, and no one from the dead in Mathew 27:51-53 would had been walking around when Jesus was resurrected. Either obedience to the Law was their claim to righteousness or the wicked dead was those who were risen with Christ.
Deliverance from death for them was through hearkening to the written Law which God said to follow in order to obtain their righteousness (as to not receive eternal death). But now that the promised Messiah came, our deliverance from death is through hearkening to the Word (Voice) Himself, as it was originally intended. Through His blood we have been redeemed from death and this Salvation is offered through faith, which is spiritual, and not the works of the Law, which is physical.
It is not because we have a right standing before God that we obey, it is because we love and out of that love, we obey. I speak for myself, and I am sure you will agree, I love His Law because it shows me Who God is and it is that by which the Spirit leads.
P.S. It seems you and I are both long-winded. Can we stick to one subject so that others will not lose interest because of the long posts?
--Chris
Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
And they who fulfilled the Law, down to proper sacrifice, found their justification (reversal of death) when Jesus came and delivered them from Hades:
Mat 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
With the understanding of Deut 6:25, where it said that their righteousness was by observing to DO ALL as they were commanded by the LORD under the Law, we can see now that God's righteousness is shown apart from the Law's righteousness:
Rom 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
I agree that if one believes in God and acts upon that faith and in essence, carry out His will, then that is imputed as righteousness. But, under the Law, one had to be physically obedient to the written Law, as oppose to one being spiritually obedient to the leading of the Spirit.
Yes, the laws they added was not how God said it was to be. But, that does not nullify the many mentions of: works of the Law. That is, deeds of the Law. Deeds are done in the flesh and the Law said to do this or that to obtain your righteousness, as oppose to Christ Law of Love which states that Love is done because of faith, not because we are seeking righteousness.
Some did keep the whole Law (by implementing physical sacrifices). Otherwise, there would have been no righteous dead, and no one from the dead in Mathew 27:51-53 would had been walking around when Jesus was resurrected. Either obedience to the Law was their claim to righteousness or the wicked dead was those who were risen with Christ.
Deliverance from death for them was through hearkening to the written Law which God said to follow in order to obtain their righteousness (as to not receive eternal death). But now that the promised Messiah came, our deliverance from death is through hearkening to the Word (Voice) Himself, as it was originally intended. Through His blood we have been redeemed from death and this Salvation is offered through faith, which is spiritual, and not the works of the Law, which is physical.
It is not because we have a right standing before God that we obey, it is because we love and out of that love, we obey. I speak for myself, and I am sure you will agree, I love His Law because it shows me Who God is and it is that by which the Spirit leads.
P.S. It seems you and I are both long-winded. Can we stick to one subject so that others will not lose interest because of the long posts?
--Chris