There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

[NWL]

Yahweh (Jehovah) is not only the Father.

The Father is Jehovah, but so is Jesus, and so is the Holy Spirit.

If Jesus weren't Jehovah, He would be a second God. But we know that there is only one God (Jehovah). Therefore Jesus has to be Jehovah, too. The same with the Holy Spirit.

Hi Arwen4CJ, I've been skimming through this thread from time to time, I haven't had the time or energy due to my circumstances to be on this forum much, but what I keep seeing is this teaching that Jehovah in not only the Father, but also the the Son and HS.

I'm just interested where you get your scriptural proof which shows that Jesus was directly called Yahweh (Jehovah) and also where the HS was directly called Yahweh (Jehovah)? At present, I've only ever seen the name YHWH in reference to the Father.

Do you have such scriptural proof, or is your reasoning based purely on assumptions based on a belief?

I've enjoyed your posts btw.

 

[tucksma]

Hi Arwen4CJ, I've been skimming through this thread from time to time, I haven't had the time or energy due to my circumstances to be on this forum much, but what I keep seeing is this teaching that Jehovah in not only the Father, but also the the Son and HS.

I'm just interested where you get your scriptural proof which shows that Jesus was directly called Yahweh (Jehovah) and also where the HS was directly called Yahweh (Jehovah)? At present, I've only ever seen the name YHWH in reference to the Father.

Do you have such scriptural proof, or is your reasoning based purely on assumptions based on a belief?

I've enjoyed your posts btw.

Well Jesus cannot be called YHWH because Jesus wasn't called Jesus till the NT and YHWH is Hebrew.

Don't get me wrong I agree with you that the trinity isn't real, but Jesus never being called YHWH doesn't show he isn't because of the differing in languages.

 

[NWL]

Well Jesus cannot be called YHWH because Jesus wasn't called Jesus till the NT and YHWH is Hebrew.

Don't get me wrong I agree with you that the trinity isn't real, but Jesus never being called YHWH doesn't show he isn't because of the differing in languages.

Hi tucksma, good hearing from you again.

tucksma from our personal conversions together I know your an intelligent person, but look at the line of reasoning you just used, "Jesus never being called YHWH doesn't show he isn't", does that sound like good logial reasoning to you? Imagine how absurd I'd sound if I used that very same line of reasoning but with regard to any other Bible character with regard to the name Jehovah.

The fact that the Father was only ever called YHWH (Jehovah) and Jesus didn't make a single attempt to call himself Jehovah or include himself in that name, for example Jesus said in John 12:28 "...Father, glorify your name” and not our name, shows that the name YHWH (Jehovah) shouldn't directly apply to Jesus.

This is why I'm so interested to see the verses from Arwen4CJ which shows these names being applied to both Jesus and the HS, it's a bold statement to say that Jesus should be called Jehovah, I'm genuinely interested to hear from him.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Hi Arwen4CJ, I've been skimming through this thread from time to time, I haven't had the time or energy due to my circumstances to be on this forum much, but what I keep seeing is this teaching that Jehovah in not only the Father, but also the the Son and HS.

Correct. If this were not so, Christians would be worshiping someone who isn't Yahweh (Jehovah), which would be idolatry.

I'm just interested where you get your scriptural proof which shows that Jesus was directly called Yahweh (Jehovah) and also where the HS was directly called Yahweh (Jehovah)? At present, I've only ever seen the name YHWH in reference to the Father.

Sure. I'll show proof of this from Scripture again, as I think that this is an essential topic. There is no Scripture that literally says "Jesus is YHWH," or "the Holy Spirit is YHWH." At the same time there is no Scripture that literally says, "the Father is YHWH." These are all conclusions that we come to by reading Scripture and by using reasoning in conjunction with it.

The word YHWH is not found in the NT. We know from the OT that YHWH is the one and only God, and it is to the OT that we must look for evidence of this.

Does that make sense?

Do you have such scriptural proof, or is your reasoning based purely on assumptions based on a belief?

Yes, but we will need to use logic, too.

I've enjoyed your posts btw.

Thanks Glad to hear it.


Now.....let's go to a chapter of Scripture from the OT that I've quoted several times....Isaiah 45, and then let me ask a few questions to you based on that (I'm putting the parts that I think are especially relevant to this topic in bold):

Isaiah 45 (NASB)
45 Thus says the LORD to Cyrus His anointed,
Whom I have taken by the right hand,
To subdue nations before him
And [SUP][a][/SUP]to loose the loins of kings;
To open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“I will go before you and make the [SUP][b][/SUP]rough places smooth;
I will shatter the doors of bronze and cut through their iron bars.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“I will give you the [SUP][c][/SUP]treasures of darkness
And hidden wealth of secret places,
So that you may know that it is I,
The LORD, the God of Israel, who calls you by your name.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“For the sake of Jacob My servant,
And Israel My chosen one,
I have also called you by your name;
I have given you a title of honor
Though you have not known Me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]“I am the LORD, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God.
I will [SUP][d][/SUP]gird you, though you have not known Me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That [SUP][e][/SUP]men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing [SUP][f][/SUP]well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.



[SUP]8 [/SUP]“Drip down, O heavens, from above,
And let the clouds pour down righteousness;
Let the earth open up and salvation bear fruit,
And righteousness spring up with it.
I, the LORD, have created it.


[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Woe to the one who quarrels with his [SUP][g][/SUP]Maker—
An earthenware vessel [SUP][h][/SUP]among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the [SUP][i][/SUP]potter, ‘What are you doing?’
Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’
Or to a woman, ‘To what are you [SUP][j][/SUP]giving birth?’”


[SUP]11[/SUP]Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his [SUP][k][/SUP]Maker:

“[SUP][l][/SUP]Ask Me about the things to come [SUP][m][/SUP]concerning My sons,
And you shall commit to Me the work of My hands.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it.
I stretched out the heavens with My hands
And I [SUP][n][/SUP]ordained all their host.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I have aroused him in righteousness
And I will make all his ways smooth;
He will build My city and will let My exiles go free,
Without any payment or reward,” says the LORD of hosts.


[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thus says the LORD,

“The [SUP][o][/SUP]products of Egypt and the merchandise of [SUP][p][/SUP]Cush
And the Sabeans, men of stature,
Will come over to you and will be yours;
They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains
And will bow down to you;
They will make supplication to you:
‘[SUP][q][/SUP]Surely, God is [SUP][r][/SUP]with you, and there is none else,No other God.’”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Truly, You are a God who hides Himself,
O God of Israel, Savior!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They will be put to shame and even humiliated, all of them;
The manufacturers of idols will go away together in humiliation.
[SUP]17[/SUP]Israel has been saved by the LORDWith an everlasting salvation;
You will not be put to shame or humiliated
To all eternity.


[SUP]18 [/SUP]For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it [SUP][s][/SUP]a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited),

“I am the LORD, and there is none else.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“I have not spoken in secret,
In [SUP][t][/SUP]some dark land;
I did not say to the [SUP][u][/SUP]offspring of Jacob,
‘Seek Me in [SUP][v][/SUP]a waste place’;
I, the LORD, speak righteousness,
Declaring things that are upright.


[SUP]20 [/SUP]“Gather yourselves and come;
Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations;
They have no knowledge,
Who carry about [SUP][w][/SUP]their wooden idol
And pray to a god who cannot save.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“In the Lord all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory.”

(Remember that in the OT LORD = YHWH)

Questions for you after reading Isaiah 45:
1.) How many gods are there (and who are they)?

2.) How many Saviors are there (and who are they)?

3.) How many creators are there (and who are they)?

4.) Can there be something that is a true god, but not YHWH?

5.) To whom will every knee bow and every tongue swear allegiance?

6.) By whom will Israel be saved by an everlasting salvation?

7.) In whom will Israel be justified and will glory?

If you could answer those questions, I will continue

 

[NWL]

Questions for you after reading Isaiah 45:
1.) How many gods are there (and who are they)?

There is one God here Jehovah (YHWH)

2.) How many Saviors are there (and who are they)?

One savior Jehovah (YHWH)

3.) How many creators are there (and who are they)?

One creator Jehovah

4.) Can there be something that is a true god, but not YHWH?

This is a tricky one, I'm not too sure what you mean by "true god", if you mean god in the Hebrew subordinate sense then I'd have to say yes there can be a true god -or at least a god rather than thee God as I like to say- apart from Jehovah, but if you mean true God in it's entirety then of course I'd say no, there cannot be.

5.) To whom will every knee bow and every tongue swear allegiance?

To Jehovah (YHWH)

6.) By whom will Israel be saved by an everlasting salvation?

By Jehovah the God of Isreal.

7.) In whom will Israel be justified and will glory?

By his God Jehovah

If you could answer those questions, I will continue

Please bear in mind my answers are based on Isaiah 45 alone -which I believe you intended for me to do anyway- apart from question 4. And I Look forward to it

 

[NWL]

There is no Scripture that literally says "Jesus is YHWH," or "the Holy Spirit is YHWH." At the same time there is no Scripture that literally says, "the Father is YHWH." These are all conclusions that we come to by reading Scripture and by using reasoning in conjunction with it.

I re-read your response and realised I forgot to address the above. Please do not think that I won't accept such a scripture which renders it more or less the same, for example, "Jesus you are Jehovah" or at least along the lines. As for your comment saying there is no scripture which literally says "the Father is YHWH" then your correct (this though is being very specific), however we do have scriptures which say more or less exactly the same thing but just in a different word order. For there are many which say Jehovah is the Father or vice versa,which re-quire little, (or even non) reasoning skills, to quote a few:

(Isaiah 64:8) "...And now, O Jehovah, you are our Father..."

(Psalm 89:1,26) "...Jehovah’s expressions of loving-kindness I will sing about even to time indefinite...He himself calls out to me, ‘You are my Father, My God and the Rock of my salvation..."

You would not find a single scripture which "literally" reads "the Father is YHWH" the same way you wouldn't find one that reads "the Father is God", even though he undoubtedly is, and based on other verses which read more or less along the lines we come to the conclusion he is, e.g "...there is actually to us one God the Father..." (1 Corinthians 8:6), just like Isaiah and Psalms they require no reasoning or interpretation skill.

So my statement still stands correct, the Father is directly called YHWH (Jehovah), which makes the fact that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not directly refereed to as YHWH (Jehovah) strange don't you think. However I still eagerly await your reply.

 

[tucksma]

Hi tucksma, good hearing from you again.

tucksma from our personal conversions together I know your an intelligent person, but look at the line of reasoning you just used, "Jesus never being called YHWH doesn't show he isn't", does that sound like good logial reasoning to you? Imagine how absurd I'd sound if I used that very same line of reasoning but with regard to any other Bible character with regard to the name Jehovah.

The fact that the Father was only ever called YHWH (Jehovah) and Jesus didn't make a single attempt to call himself Jehovah or include himself in that name, for example Jesus said in John 12:28 "...Father, glorify your name” and not our name, shows that the name YHWH (Jehovah) shouldn't directly apply to Jesus.

This is why I'm so interested to see the verses from Arwen4CJ which shows these names being applied to both Jesus and the HS, it's a bold statement to say that Jesus should be called Jehovah, I'm genuinely interested to hear from him.

Jesus wasn't called Jesus until the NT, so he couldn't be called YHWH is what I am saying. You'll never find YHWH and Jesus together because Jesus is a Greek name and YHWH is hebrew. They are different languages, which is why no verse will ever say that rather the trinity is true or not.

 

[LClark]

How does a thread based on heresy run so long on a Christian forum?

 

[tucksma]

How does a thread based on heresy run so long on a Christian forum?

This question has been relevant to what is the Truth and what isn't sense Jesus died. That's why.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

There is one God here Jehovah (YHWH)
One savior Jehovah (YHWH)
One creator Jehovah
This is a tricky one, I'm not too sure what you mean by "true god", if you mean god in the Hebrew subordinate sense then I'd have to say yes there can be a true god -or at least a god rather than thee God as I like to say- apart from Jehovah, but if you mean true God in it's entirety then of course I'd say no, there cannot be.
To Jehovah (YHWH)
By Jehovah the God of Isreal.
By his God Jehovah
Please bear in mind my answers are based on Isaiah 45 alone -which I believe you intended for me to do anyway- apart from question 4. And I Look forward to it

Thank you. You did exactly as I wanted -- answering solely based on the text from Isaiah 45.

Question 4 is important, and I by "true God" I meant God in the absolute sense.

Now, I will want to refer back to this passage later....but I do have another one from the OT to look at first:

Zechariah 12:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [SUP][h][/SUP]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Questions:
1.) What do you make of this verse?

2.) Why do you think the speaker, God, switches the pronouns there? -- He starts out saying "Me," and then says "Him."

 

[Arwen4CJ]

I re-read your response and realised I forgot to address the above. Please do not think that I won't accept such a scripture which renders it more or less the same, for example, "Jesus you are Jehovah" or at least along the lines. As for your comment saying there is no scripture which literally says "the Father is YHWH" then your correct (this though is being very specific), however we do have scriptures which say more or less exactly the same thing but just in a different word order. For there are many which say Jehovah is the Father or vice versa,which re-quire little, (or even non) reasoning skills, to quote a few:

(Isaiah 64:8) "...And now, O Jehovah, you are our Father..."

(Psalm 89:1,26) "...Jehovah’s expressions of loving-kindness I will sing about even to time indefinite...He himself calls out to me, ‘You are my Father, My God and the Rock of my salvation..."

You would not find a single scripture which "literally" reads "the Father is YHWH" the same way you wouldn't find one that reads "the Father is God", even though he undoubtedly is, and based on other verses which read more or less along the lines we come to the conclusion he is, e.g "...there is actually to us one God the Father..." (1 Corinthians 8:6), just like Isaiah and Psalms they require no reasoning or interpretation skill.

So my statement still stands correct, the Father is directly called YHWH (Jehovah), which makes the fact that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not directly refereed to as YHWH (Jehovah) strange don't you think. However I still eagerly await your reply.

Awesome. Very good. We will get there.

It just takes a little time to build it up. Isaiah 45 is a key passage for me, but there are others as well. So, I'm going to present a little more evidence, and ask about several more passages from the OT, and then we will look at what that means, and of course talk about Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We'll do Jesus first.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

How does a thread based on heresy run so long on a Christian forum?

Because people are asking honest questions, and we are having a good discussion. We are defending our positions, and we are engaged in honest dialogue.

 

[Simona25]

Jesus wasn't called Jesus until the NT, so he couldn't be called YHWH is what I am saying. You'll never find YHWH and Jesus together because Jesus is a Greek name and YHWH is hebrew. They are different languages, which is why no verse will ever say that rather the trinity is true or not.

The name "Jesus" in hebrew is Yeshua or Yehoshuah - a name that contains a particle of YHWH.
There are a lot of verses in which Jesus Christ indirectly says that He is YHWH. This is also the reason why He was crucified.


1. John 18, 4-8:

4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

Why do you think the jews went backward and prosternated to the ground when they heard the syntagm "I am"; is this a normal reaction from the jews when they hear the verb "to be" conjugated, or did Jesus Christ used it in a way that reminded them the tetragrammaton YHWH?

2. John 8,58-59:


58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Again, we see a strange reaction from the jews when they hear Jesus Christ pronouncing "I am". Why were they so upset about Jesus Chriat saying that?

3. John 8, 23-24:


23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.


24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Another example where the verb "to be" has a higher significance and not the usual one.


4. Mark 14,61-64:

61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Same like the other jews, from the previous examples, the high priest is angry and rip off his clothes because Jesus Christ, by saying "I am", is attributing himself the name of YHWH.

Leviticus 24,16 says "16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death."
So, from Leviticus 24:16, we understand the "blasphemy" that Jesus Christ commited: that of saying that He is God. The jews have had a lot of Messiahs before Jesus Christ, but no one said that they were God. Jesus Christ did - which is why He got crucified.

 

[VCO]

then who is all power full is it the father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit

One more time, THEY, the THREE, are coequally the same and ONLY GOD that has ever existed.

Colossians 2:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Philippians 2:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

Now if you are asking which one of the THREE is the "Shot-Caller"; that would be the primary function of the FATHER, and always has been; while the Son's primary function has always been to do the will of the Father. Likewise the Holy Spirit's primary function has always been, since creation, to enable us to do the will of the Father, starting with believing, and receiving Jesus Christ as LORD. HOWEVER their singular DEITY is coequally shared at all times, except for the time that Jesus Christ willingly set it aside to become our Ultimate Sacrifice for sin, as he died on the cross.

Hebrews 2:7-9 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "YOU HAVE MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS; YOU HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR, AND HAVE APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

 

[VCO]

Because people are asking honest questions, and we are having a good discussion. We are defending our positions, and we are engaged in honest dialogue.

Good Biblical response:

1 Peter 3:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

 

[tucksma]

The name "Jesus" in hebrew is Yeshua or Yehoshuah - a name that contains a particle of YHWH.
There are a lot of verses in which Jesus Christ indirectly says that He is YHWH. This is also the reason why He was crucified.


1. John 18, 4-8:

4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

Why do you think the jews went backward and prosternated to the ground when they heard the syntagm "I am"; is this a normal reaction from the jews when they hear the verb "to be" conjugated, or did Jesus Christ used it in a way that reminded them the tetragrammaton YHWH?

2. John 8,58-59:


58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Again, we see a strange reaction from the jews when they hear Jesus Christ pronouncing "I am". Why were they so upset about Jesus Chriat saying that?

3. John 8, 23-24:


23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.


24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Another example where the verb "to be" has a higher significance and not the usual one.


4. Mark 14,61-64:

61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Same like the other jews, from the previous examples, the high priest is angry and rip off his clothes because Jesus Christ, by saying "I am", is attributing himself the name of YHWH.

Leviticus 24,16 says "16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death."
So, from Leviticus 24:16, we understand the "blasphemy" that Jesus Christ commited: that of saying that He is God. The jews have had a lot of Messiahs before Jesus Christ, but no one said that they were God. Jesus Christ did - which is why He got crucified.

The only thing I'm going to say is just cause Jesus says "I am" doesn't mean he is God. The phrase "I am" comes up in scripture 698 times. Many people other than Jesus say this phrase.

 

[GreenNnice]

The name "Jesus" in hebrew is Yeshua or Yehoshuah - a name that contains a particle of YHWH.
There are a lot of verses in which Jesus Christ indirectly says that He is YHWH. This is also the reason why He was crucified.


1. John 18, 4-8:

4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

Why do you think the jews went backward and prosternated to the ground when they heard the syntagm "I am"; is this a normal reaction from the jews when they hear the verb "to be" conjugated, or did Jesus Christ used it in a way that reminded them the tetragrammaton YHWH?

2. John 8,58-59:


58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Again, we see a strange reaction from the jews when they hear Jesus Christ pronouncing "I am". Why were they so upset about Jesus Chriat saying that?

3. John 8, 23-24:


23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.


24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Another example where the verb "to be" has a higher significance and not the usual one.


4. Mark 14,61-64:

61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Same like the other jews, from the previous examples, the high priest is angry and rip off his clothes because Jesus Christ, by saying "I am", is attributing himself the name of YHWH.

Leviticus 24,16 says "16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death."
So, from Leviticus 24:16, we understand the "blasphemy" that Jesus Christ commited: that of saying that He is God. The jews have had a lot of Messiahs before Jesus Christ, but no one said that they were God. Jesus Christ did - which is why He got crucified.

I would have to look at the Hebrew but the words "I am," in those contexts said, Hisimone, definitely, refer indirectly, if not, directly to Jesus calling Himself 'I AM.' That is pointed out nicely, milady

 

[Arwen4CJ]

The only thing I'm going to say is just cause Jesus says "I am" doesn't mean he is God. The phrase "I am" comes up in scripture 698 times. Many people other than Jesus say this phrase.

But don't you think, at least given the context in which He said these statements, that it means something more than when someone says, "I am going to the store?"

Jesus clearly meant something very specific when He said, 'Before Abraham was, I am."

And we can tell that His audience knew that He meant because they were prepared to stone Him for blasphemy. But all of that only makes sense if He is referring to YHWH, and applying that name to Himself.

There is more Scripture in which Jesus says, "I am He," and we will look at it. The way that Jesus uses it is very similar to the way YHWH uses it in Isaiah.

 

[tucksma]

But don't you think, at least given the context in which He said these statements, that it means something more than when someone says, "I am going to the store?"

Jesus clearly meant something very specific when He said, 'Before Abraham was, I am."

And we can tell that His audience knew that He meant because they were prepared to stone Him for blasphemy. But all of that only makes sense if He is referring to YHWH, and applying that name to Himself.

There is more Scripture in which Jesus says, "I am He," and we will look at it. The way that Jesus uses it is very similar to the way YHWH uses it in Isaiah 45 and the surrounding chapters.

In the "Before Abraham was, I am" i believe Jesus is talking about importance. Jesus says was for Abraham, because he is dead. He says am for him, because it is present tense. Before Abraham I am, or I am more than Abraham was.

 

[tucksma]

Also I am he (unless they ask who is God) can refer to MANY things. It depends on the context.