Was Paul Really A False Apostle?

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nathan3

Guest
#81
Do you believe every Pharisee agreed on every issue? Whether or not they agreed is not the issue. The issue is that he declared himself to be a Pharisee, and Messiah clearly commanded us to avoid the teachings of the Pharisees. How do you reconcile Messiah's command?
Pharisees, and the teachings ( traditions ) are two different things. Paul did not teach, the "traditions of the Pharisees." You would have to imagine that , because its not written.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#82
Absolutely, I believe it is possible for YHVH to kill someone for not obeying Him. What makes - if I may assume - your Protestant canon "His authored written Word" though? Why not the Catholic canon? Or the Orthodox canon? Or the Ethiopian Orthodox canon? Or Luther's canon? Or my non-Pauline canon?

The manuscripts in which the Bible is taken is God's words. The world uses the same ones.

So i don't know where your confusion is coming from, but I can see its a lack of understanding many things, and much assumptions. And a shame, because your loosing your foundation.

After the world has pulled Paul's writings, then its Luke's, and then its the virgin birth of Christ, then your no longer a Christian. But just a member, of the world of confused peoples. I dont know how else to see this.
 
Aug 17, 2013
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#83
Pharisees, and the teachings ( traditions ) are two different things. Paul did not teach, the "traditions of the Pharisees." You would have to imagine that , because its not written.
The traditions of the Pharisees is an anti-Law, anti-obedience message. The Pharisees were experts at trying to find ways to get around YHVH's Order/Law. As mainstream Christianity readily admits, Pharisee Paul taught an anti-Law message as well. So, yes, I do claim Pharisee Paul taught the traditions of the Pharisees, albeit slightly modified to include a form of Messiah.
 
Aug 17, 2013
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#84
The manuscripts in which the Bible is taken is God's words. The word all use the same ones. So i don't know where your confusion is coming from, but I can see its a lack of understanding many things, and much assumptions. And a shame, because your loosing your foundation.

After the world has pulled Paul's writings, then its Luke's, and then its the virgin birth of Christ, then your no longer a Christian. But just a member, of the world of confused peoples. I dont know how else to see this.
Which Bible is God's Word?
 
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nathan3

Guest
#85
The traditions of the Pharisees is an anti-Law, anti-obedience message. The Pharisees were experts at trying to find ways to get around YHVH's Order/Law. As mainstream Christianity readily admits, Pharisee Paul taught an anti-Law message as well. So, yes, I do claim Pharisee Paul taught the traditions of the Pharisees, albeit slightly modified to include a form of Messiah.
where did Paul try to do away with the Law of God. that is not written. ?
 
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nathan3

Guest
#86
Which Bible is God's Word?

The manuscripts, those dont change, and they are all the same. -_- old testaments and new, its all God's words. Even the Apocryphal books of the old testament.
 
Aug 17, 2013
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#87
where did Paul try to do away with the Law of God. that is not written. ?
Read Galatians, for example. Gal 5:1-6 is a specific instance in that book. Paul taught against circumcision of the flesh, whereas YHVH taught the necessity of both circumcision of the heart and flesh.
 
Aug 17, 2013
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#88
The manuscripts, those dont change, and they are all the same. -_- old testaments and new, its all God's words. Even the Apocryphal books of the old testament.
I meant: Which books make up "the Bible"?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#89
Read Galatians, for example. Gal 5:1-6 is a specific instance in that book. Paul taught against circumcision of the flesh, whereas YHVH taught the necessity of both circumcision of the heart and flesh.
Paul had Timothy circumcised:

Acts 16:1-3 (NASB)
1 Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, 2 and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#90
Read Galatians, for example. Gal 5:1-6 is a specific instance in that book. Paul taught against circumcision of the flesh, whereas YHVH taught the necessity of both circumcision of the heart and flesh.
Paul speaking -

Galatians 5:1-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.


(( Did you know that circumcising of the foreskin is of the old covenant? That is the subject. ))

(( If they were still doing blood scarifies and ordinances of the old covenant ( circumcision of the foreskin ), they could not take part in the New covenant which is Christ.

Because as its written, Christ was one sacrifice for one and all time ( Hebrews 10:1-25).

After Christ gave His perfect blood to atone for our sins, and then turn away to engage in blood rituals, would be an insult to Christ. Because the cricumsions that God wants, is of of the heart. Meaning our love for God.

This is what Paul is teaching. And every Christian would know this. You cant be a Christian or your very confused if you think Paul is wrong . God chose Paul because he knows God's words. )))



3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.


( The law of the old covenant ....Not the ten commandments... Keep with the subject.. )




4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


(( If you believe Paul is saying, that you can practice, the old covenant, then Christ is Non effect to you. And your still in your sins. He is talking of the law contained in ""Ordinances """ Remember, that is what was nailed to the cross ( Colossians 2:14 ).

Not the law of God in his Commandments. There is a difference, and Paul knows this. Why don't you ? Listening to men much ? ))



5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


(( This is clear. Paul is not teaching against God's law. He is teaching against the traditions of the Pharisees, which did take part as non believers in Christ, of the old covenant ( not Christian ; not God's way). God said He would make a new covenant. ))


Jeremiah 31:31-33

King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
 
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Aug 17, 2013
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#91
Paul had Timothy circumcised:

Acts 16:1-3 (NASB)
1 Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, 2 and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.
I don't doubt that he did.

That only proves one thing (which I believe) to me though: That Pharisee Paul taught opposing doctrines to please different groups of people (cf 1Cor 9:20-22). Pro-Law to some groups, anti-Law to other groups, pro-circumcision to one, anti-circumcision to another, pro-Cretan elders to Timothy, anti-Cretans in the same breath.

This, I believe, is the problem mainstream Christianity & Messianics, etc. grapple with but do not understand. Each group perceives Paul saying one thing, and the other group (legitimately) perceives Paul teaching the opposite. What I see is this: they are both right! Paul was double minded (Jam 1:8, 4:8), the vain man who did not know that faith without works is dead (Jam 2:20). A type of Balaam (the prophet who taught both truths and falsehoods).
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#92
This is from the KJV, and I see the new covenant to be made will have the effect that all from the least to the greatest will know the Lord, and there will be no need for people to say "know ye the Lord." Do you see this as having already occurred? If so, why is there so much dissent in the forum and in the actual world?


Jer 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#93
Jer 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



The last part looks forward to the Lords Day written of in Revelation 20., And other places in the old testament.
 
Aug 17, 2013
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#94
Paul speaking -

Galatians 5:1-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.


(( Did you know that circumcising of the foreskin is of the old covenant? That is the subject. ))

(( If they were still doing blood scarifies and ordinances of the old covenant ( circumcision of the foreskin ), they could not take part in the New covenant which is Christ.

Because as its written, Christ was one sacrifice for one and all time ( Hebrews 10:1-25).

After Christ gave His perfect blood to atone for our sins, and then turn away to engage in blood rituals, would be an insult to Christ. Because the cricumsions that God wants, is of of the heart. Meaning our love for God.

This is what Paul is teaching. And every Christian would know this. You cant be a Christian or your very confused if you think Paul is wrong . God chose Paul because he knows God's words. )))



3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.


( The law of the old covenant ....Not the ten commandments... Keep with the subject.. )




4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


(( If you believe Paul is saying, that you can practice, the old covenant, then Christ is Non effect to you. And your still in your sins. He is talking of the law contained in ""Ordinances """ Remember, that is what was nailed to the cross ( Colossians 2:14 ).

Not the law of God in his Commandments. There is a difference, and Paul knows this. Why don't you ? Listening to men much ? ))



5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


(( This is clear. Paul is not teaching against God's law. He is teaching against the traditions of the Pharisees, which did take part as non believers in Christ, of the old covenant ( not Christian ; not God's way). God said He would make a new covenant. ))


Jeremiah 31:31-33

King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Your statements are based on the belief that the "new covenant" is already here. I do not believe it is.

The καινός (not neos) covenant which Messiah taught (Mt 26:28, Mk 14:24, Lk 22:20) was a renewed covenant, not the brand new covenant foretold by Jeremiah. As for Jeremiah's prophecy, note how it has not come to pass yet. Does everyone fully know YHVH's Torah/Law? Has it been written on our hearts? Don't forget verse 34 (of Jeremiah 31, it is often not quoted) - are we still teaching one another? Does everyone know YHVH?

Finally, the Pharisees were not teaching the "Old" Covenant. They were teaching man-made traditions which clouded YHVH's Law. Messiah came to remove those traditions, and bring His people back to His Covenant.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,409
6,697
113
#95
If this is what you believe, I am happy. The reason I ask is because of the OP, and many people quote this same passage in order to demonstrate somehow that this has already occurred because of receiving the gospel of Jesus, Yeshua. Now, I do believe our new nature is to do all we are capable to please our Savior in thanksgiving, and also all who know Him learn from Him and obey Him. This I want in the light for consideration and prayer. So then, this is not teaching that this has occurred, thank you.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#96
Your statements are based on the belief that the "new covenant" is already here. I do not believe it is.

The καινός (not neos) covenant which Messiah taught (Mt 26:28, Mk 14:24, Lk 22:20) was a renewed covenant, not the brand new covenant foretold by Jeremiah. As for Jeremiah's prophecy, note how it has not come to pass yet. Does everyone fully know YHVH's Torah/Law? Has it been written on our hearts? Don't forget verse 34 (of Jeremiah 31, it is often not quoted) - are we still teaching one another? Does everyone know YHVH?

Finally, the Pharisees were not teaching the "Old" Covenant. They were teaching man-made traditions which clouded YHVH's Law. Messiah came to remove those traditions, and bring His people back to His Covenant.
the new covenant, is Christ. I really dont have time for this right now. Maybe we can talk more about scripture in the future. But as for today. theres only but so much stuff, i cant take in at once.
 
Aug 17, 2013
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#97
the new covenant, is Christ.
The new covenant, according to Jeremiah, includes YHVH's Torah and Law ;) The Law exists in the "Old" Covenant, and it will exist in the "New" Covenant. So what is Paul teaching?

I really dont have time for this right now. Maybe we can talk more about scripture in the future. But as for today. theres only but so much stuff, i cant take in at once.
It was a pleasure debating. See you soon.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#98
I encourage everyone, to research and study, the Difference, between Ordinances, prescribed by the law to forgive sin for the old covenant, , and the law itself of the ten commandments and other commandments, and learn, learn learn for pets sake, the difference...

Have a good day.
 
Aug 17, 2013
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#99
I see no significant difference between "ordinance" or "law/commandments" in the written texts.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
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I will not watch an hour video on a subject that was very recently discussed to death. Maybe someone who has watched this person's video will tell me, if he used scripture to support Paul being an apostle, what scripture.

I am neither against nor for Paul. I read him always, but my Teacher is Yeshua. Since his writings are mostly to specific congregations or assemblies with specific questions and problems, I look to his writings for what has already been taught by the evangelists and prophets. Then Paul tends to make more sense. Meanwhile, I don't thing anyone may be faulted for listening to Jesus, Yeshua, first I mean, that would be just stupid.
Jesus did not write Scripture. Do you mean Matthew, Mark, Luke or John?