Was Paul Really A False Apostle?

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cfultz3

Guest
In other words: you deny that Messiah commissioned His 11/12 Jewish apostles to be the Apostles to the Gentiles (Matthew 28:18-20)?

I find it quite incredulous to believe the alleged claim that the ministry to the small population of Jews were given to the 12, and the rest of the much larger Gentile world was given to one man!
In other words, you deny this:

Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Perhaps, this should be read:


In this attempt to prove Scripture false concerning Paul, you missed this:
Mat 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
 
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People do a lot of things in the name of religion, yourself included. But allow Paul to speak for himself . Paul never told people Not to keep the ten commandments and like commandments. Christ told people to observe the law of the ten commandments, as Paul did also.

Paul however was not under the old Covenant of blood ordinances, and he never taught people to observe the old blood covenant as Christians. That would be sacrilegious .and Paul was right to keep people from that.

Do you observe the old blood rituals ?
I suggest reading Galatians 5:1-6.

No, I do not observe YHVH's sacrifices, for the fact that there is no sanctified Temple to do so. Until YHVH restores it, those particular laws are inapplicable.
 
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many will try to distract you but dont believe in them
paul was an apostle for gentiles
do you not know apostless accepted paul later
dont believe in false teachings stick to the truth

may god bless you
So, I should not believe Messiah when He appointed the 12 to be the apostles to the Gentiles (Mt 28:18-20)?
 
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In other words, you deny this:
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Did Messiah say that to Paul? Or did He speak those things through Ananias, in the house of Judas? Which is it? Paul's own witness is inconsistent. We do not have additional corroborating witnesses to verify Paul's three differing accounts, in any case: "in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." - Mt 18:16

Perhaps, this should be read:

In this attempt to prove Scripture false concerning Paul, you missed this:
Mat 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
No, I didn't miss it. Messiah also came for Israel (Mt 15:24). After Messiah completed His witness and offer to Israel, He then sent His apostles to all the (Gentile) nations (Mt 28:19) to invite those who desire to sojourn as believers with believing Israel, for their salvation.
 
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sureshjames

Guest
So, I should not believe Messiah when He appointed the 12 to be the apostles to the Gentiles (Mt 28:18-20)?
he appointed 12 apostles
each apostle for one tribe of israel
 
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cfultz3

Guest
In other words: you deny that Messiah commissioned His 11/12 Jewish apostles to be the Apostles to the Gentiles (Matthew 28:18-20)?

I find it quite incredulous to believe the alleged claim that the ministry to the small population of Jews were given to the 12, and the rest of the much larger Gentile world was given to one man!
You said the following:
Paul claimed to be a Pharisee (Acts 23:6, Phil 3:5) - well into his 'Christian ministry'. Messiah commanded me to avoid the teachings of the anti-Law Pharisees (Mt 16:6-12).
Although Jesus said that Paul was chosen by Him:
In other words, you deny this:

Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Yet. by you inclusive understanding of Acts 23:6 and Phil 3:5, you would imply that God teaches against such people as Paul and warns you to avoid them.

In essence, you are saying that God warns you to avoid someone who was PERSONALLY chosen by His Son. Interesting, should we avoid all the apostles now?

Could Act 23:6 simply be saying that when it comes to the resurrection of the dead, that he is of the Pharisees who believe the dead will be risen, as oppose to the Sadducees?

Could Phil 3"5 simply be saying that when it comes to the Law and it strict observation, he was a Pharisee, as oppose to the Sadducess who were more socially and morally loose with the laws?
 
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You said the following:
Although Jesus said that Paul was chosen by Him:

Yet. by you inclusive understanding of Acts 23:6 and Phil 3:5, you would imply that God teaches against such people as Paul and warns you to avoid them.

In essence, you are saying that God warns you to avoid someone who was PERSONALLY chosen by His Son. Interesting, should we avoid all the apostles now?

Could Act 23:6 simply be saying that when it comes to the resurrection of the dead, that he is of the Pharisees who believe the dead will be risen, as oppose to the Sadducees?

Could Phil 3"5 simply be saying that when it comes to the Law and it strict observation, he was a Pharisee, as oppose to the Sadducess who were more socially and morally loose with the laws?
Do you give the same liberties to Joseph Smith when he claimed to have seen the Father, the Son, and angels?

No, I don't believe Messiah visited Joseph Smith, nor do I believe He visited Paul. Messiah, in Mt 24, forewarned against false Christs (Mt 24:23,24) who allegedly appears in the deserts or secretly (without witnesses, Mt 24:26). There are no records of first-hand witnesses to Paul's desert-road encounter with Messiah.
 
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chubbena

Guest
Yet many are not claming Paul to be a mere "pastor", but an "apostle" with a much greater standard.
Does the scripture set a much greater standard for apostle? Can we definite the word "apostle" biblically?
The appearance was to Jerusalem (Psa 84:7) at the Temple to present offerings (Deu 16:16,17; 12:5,6), and to learn of YHVH's Torah/Law (Deu 31:11-13). Since the Temple is not extant, it is my belief that this particular law does not apply to faithful believers now.
Did the commandment say it's valid only as long as the temple exists? Did Yeshua say "destroy this temple I will raise it again in 3 days?" Is not His body the temple? Is not His body the believers?
1. The Greek text of 2Pet 3:15 does not include "God gave him". It only says "wisdom given him". The Greek text does not identify the source of Paul's wisdom. James 3:15 states that there is a devilish sort of wisdom.
Was Peter speaking negatively of Paul in verse 15 that he linked the long suffering of the Lord is salvation with his writings?
2. The Greek text does not identify Paul as a "brother in Christ". Only as a "brother". Not all "brothers" are good brothers, cf Mt 10:21.
As far as I know Peter and Paul were not related by blood so if not in Christ how could he call Paul brother?
3. Whatever hidden wisdom Paul allegedly reveals, is it witnessed to by additional writers? Or preached only by Paul alone? Is Paul greater than Messiah's standard for Himself (cf Jn 5:31)?
Didn't it witnessed by Peter?
The Tanach teaches that circumcision of the heart and flesh are both necessary. Faith plus obedience, which Messiah, and the twelve, and James the elder all preach.
Are you saying circumcision of the flesh is necessary for salvation? What does Deut 10:16 and Deut 30:6 mean then? And are we not to believe what James said in Acts 15:13-21?
 
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cfultz3

Guest
1. Paul's words compose 27% of the Protestant New Tesatment, not half.
okay 27% of New Testament is false. That makes it better to swallow. (NOT)

2. I do not say that the H.S. cannot keep things out of His Word. Instead, one must understand Deu 13:1-5 that He actually sends false prophets to test us! Can we discern between the two trees we have before us?
Are you saying that Paul was a false prophets to test us? And that 27% of New Testament Scripture is a false teaching?
3. Which "Bible" is riddled with falsehood?
I suppose that since you say that Paul was a false teacher sent by God to test people, then I reckon the one you who is calling God's written words as such is saying that the Bible is riddled with falsehood.

Only a fool will follow such as you.

4. It's interesting that we have those who advocate that believers cannot and should not do what Messiah did (follow YHVH's Law), and yet call them "Christ-followers"! How ironic! :rolleyes:
What is more ironic is that you assume I teach against the Law. What is more ironic is that you teach against God's Scripture in your defense to place others under the Law which we were delivered from by the Son. It is ironic that people can be deceived to place themselves back under the Law.
 
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sureshjames

Guest
Do you give the same liberties to Joseph Smith when he claimed to have seen the Father, the Son, and angels?

No, I don't believe Messiah visited Joseph Smith, nor do I believe He visited Paul. Messiah, in Mt 24, forewarned against false Christs (Mt 24:23,24) who allegedly appears in the deserts or secretly (without witnesses, Mt 24:26). There are no records of first-hand witnesses to Paul's desert-road encounter with Messiah.

if paul is a false prophet then how this things possible
how can paul cast out demons in the name of jesus then?
how can paul heal the people in the name jesus
 
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cfultz3

Guest
Who mentioned that Paul is an apostle 9 times?
Paul did in the Scriptures.

Apostle = one sent by Christ.

Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

I suppose that Paul was not sent by Christ?
 
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nathan3

Guest
I suggest reading Galatians 5:1-6.

No, I do not observe YHVH's sacrifices, for the fact that there is no sanctified Temple to do so. Until YHVH restores it, those particular laws are inapplicable.
there is nothing written in Galatians 5:1-6 about not keeping God's law .On the contrary, Paul mentions Christ
( 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. ) who taught us to observe the law.




Matthew 5:18-20

King James Version (KJV)

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Christ speaking :

Mark 10 :


17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.



Christ taught the law of God, and Paul followed Christ. So Paul also, taught the law. Christ did not say follow the old blood covenant, like circumcision of the foreskin.

The circumcision of today is a spiritual one of the heart, meaning a Christians love for God. This is written even in the old testament.




Galatians 5:1-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised ( foreskin old - " covenant " ), Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law .




Paul is repeating verse two , that every person that is circumcised for a religious purpose, he is required to keep every last word of the law, and he/she will be judged by them all. When you put yourself under the law, then even the laws that are unknown to you, you will be judged on them by God.

Only Christ was perfect and able to keep it all.


"Repentance of your sins in Jesus name " gives us the credentials to go before the throne of God, and have a sin blotted out of the book of life.
You are either under the grace given under the blood of Christ, or you are under the law, and it is you that does the choosing. When you teach that there is no forgiveness, under a specific one of those laws, you have condemned your self under the whole law, for Christ's blood is sufficient to cover any sin that is repented to; the Father in Jesus name.

Galatians 5:4 "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

"Grace" is unmerited favor that you can never earn. Christ paid the price for all sin on the cross at Calvary's Hill.


4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


Love is the most powerful thing in the world. "Circumcision" that is done under religious beliefs, has nothing to do with salvation.

It is done to fulfill part of the law, so when it is done for religious beliefs, it takes you out of your "hope of righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ".

This is why in the time of Grace that we are now under, all circumcision is of the heart, and that is why it is for both men and women, for it becomes a spiritual matter, and not a physical act. Both male and female have an active part in serving the living God.

Paul in another place would say this :



Romans 7:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


There is more to Paul writings, and no one can say in all honestly that Paul taught people not to observe it, he taught the law in the completeness of Christ, once you understand all of the letters.

Remember, most of the people he addresses in the scripture you quoted, where being taught by the Pharisees that they had to observe the old covenant blood letting practices. And this is against what is written.

This not not all easy to understand, and to claim without a doubt what you are, shows me a unwillingness to study before forming conclusions .

I don't understand this completely ,but I don't allow myself to jump to conclusions when I had
inadequate time, ( years ) to study everything ; that being the case with most people, who would dare call Paul, who Christ chose , false ? That would be a grave mistake. You would be ignoring a lot of scriptures.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
In response to:
You prefer in calling half of Scripture as false, seeing that Paul wrote it. You are not attacking words on a piece of paper, you are attacking God Himself by denying half of His New Covenant.
You said:
Paul is not God. ;)

Do you read from the Catholic or Ethiopic Orthodox canon? If not, why not? Are you attacking God Himself by denying those books which are believed to be His Word?
Either you are saying that Scripture written by Paul is not God inspired and the Holy Spirit failed in preserving His written word or you are saying that all of Scripture is corrupt.

Your attack is not on Paul, your attack is on God.
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
Well said, natolator and cee.

* natolator hopefully realizes that when he said 'who's greennnice :p' in one of green's other threads green DOES keep tabs on that sort of thing :D
 
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cfultz3

Guest
It is more dangerous for a soul to not obey YHVH's commandments to test all prophets.
And how have you proven Paul to be a false prophet? Did He not teach obedience and being pleasing before the LORD?

You will have people to believe that the Spirit placed 27% of New Testament Scripture into Jesus' Covenant so that people could be misled by it.

DON'T you think that is sort of DIABOLIC of the Spirit to trick people into believing what Paul said concerning his specific apostleship which CAME directly from Jesus?
 
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cfultz3

Guest
So, I should not believe Messiah when He appointed the 12 to be the apostles to the Gentiles (Mt 28:18-20)?
In this attempt to prove Scripture false concerning Paul, you missed this:

Mat 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
Do you give the same liberties to Joseph Smith when he claimed to have seen the Father, the Son, and angels?
Here we have it again: saying that 27% of New Testament Scripture is false, just because you do not believe Paul when he spoke of meeting Jesus. Again, your attack is not on words, but what Jesus delivered in the New Testament.

You keep placing doubt in people's mind by implying that Paul was false and that the Holy Spirit, by having placed Paul's false teachings into Scripture, misleads by having people believe that we have been liberated from the Law, although Jesus Himself had also said such.

Nevertheless, it is you who is misleading by bringing us back to what Jesus delivered us from.

Your attack on Scripture will be short lived here.
 
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sureshjames

Guest
know this

if anybody persucate you they are not only persucate them they are persucating jesus
if anybody rejects you consider they rejected jesus first(luke 10:16)

so dont reject paul amessainic
 
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Does the scripture set a much greater standard for apostle? Can we definite the word "apostle" biblically?
Did the commandment say it's valid only as long as the temple exists? Did Yeshua say "destroy this temple I will raise it again in 3 days?" Is not His body the temple? Is not His body the believers?
Was Peter speaking negatively of Paul in verse 15 that he linked the long suffering of the Lord is salvation with his writings?
As far as I know Peter and Paul were not related by blood so if not in Christ how could he call Paul brother?
Didn't it witnessed by Peter?
Are you saying circumcision of the flesh is necessary for salvation? What does Deut 10:16 and Deut 30:6 mean then? And are we not to believe what James said in Acts 15:13-21?
In an earlier post in this thread, I referenced many verses which points to the fact that an "apostle" is to be a first-hand eyewitness of Messiah's life. It is also written that to hear them is to hear Messiah. Thus, "apostles" are held to a much higher standard. The commandment states that males must appear before Him in His presence. The idea that the "body" is believers, I believe is rooted in Paul's teachings. As for 2Pet 3:15, it could easily be punctuated "the longsuffering of our Master is salvation. Even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto hath written unto you, as also in all his epistles ..." Do you believe that there are false brothers? What was witnessed by Peter, specifically? I am saying obedience is integral to salvation. I'm not sure what you are referring to in Deu 10:16 & 30:6. I have no problem with Acts 15:13-21 ... James was reiterating that "Moses was preached in the synagogues every sabbath day" in v21. I see that to indicate that he expects new believers to learn the Law over time.
 
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okay 27% of New Testament is false. That makes it better to swallow. (NOT)
No. 27% of your NT is non-canonical to me. Just like you reject & see as non-canonical many books which the Catholics, Orthodox, and Ethiopian Orthodox accept. I notice that you've chosen to avoid this issue altogether in your responses thus far, my friend. :confused:

Are you saying that Paul was a false prophets to test us? And that 27% of New Testament Scripture is a false teaching? I suppose that since you say that Paul was a false teacher sent by God to test people, then I reckon the one you who is calling God's written words as such is saying that the Bible is riddled with falsehood. Only a fool will follow such as you.
I do not debate with name-callers or those who descend to ad hominem attacks, but I will overlook this for now.

What is your answer to my charge that you (likely) reject many books such as Enoch, Sirach, etc. which other denominations hold dear as Scripture?

What is more ironic is that you assume I teach against the Law.
I didn't assume that you teach against the Law. I was making a general observation about mainstream Christianity at large.

What is more ironic is that you teach against God's Scripture in your defense to place others under the Law which we were delivered from by the Son. It is ironic that people can be deceived to place themselves back under the Law.
Great, so I can go worship other gods now while still giving lip-service to professing belief in Messiah, right?