The Letter to the Romans...

Yahshua · Feb 2, 2014

Romans 6:1-2

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

What Paul's Saying...

(Paul's addressing something new at this point of the letter, in context to his previous point that "more revealed sin result in more grace from God"). First he shoots down the idea that the believer should continue in sin simply to increase grace. Then (new point) he says the believer in Christ has died to sin.

Now let's go back a few thoughts...

1. Sin entered the world through one man's disobedience, Adam...so sin exists.
2. Then the giving of God's Law revealed more sin (i.e. showing more actions of man that are in fact "sins").
3. But Paul says the believer is not to continue in sin (i.e. they're no longer weak to it because of Christ's grace).
4. Thus, "not continuing in sin" = "not performing those actions now being revealed by God's Law to be sins".
5. Because the believer is "dead to sin".

If you agree with this interpretation, “like” it.

If you disagree with this interpretation, post an alternative for others to agree with.

If you’d like further elaboration of any interpretation, feel free to ask them.

Click the arrow in any quote to view original post.

Elin · Feb 2, 2014

Yahshua said:

Alternative.

No, sir. . .more alteration of the text from the Judaizers' playbook for the Bible.

The Greek reads:

"So then as through one offense was condemnation for all men,
so also through one righteous act was justification to life to all men." (Ro 5:18)

Mankind was not "led" to condemnation by Adam's trespass, it was condemnation.
And one act of righteousness does not "lead" to justification and life, it is justification and life.

That's an entirely different meaning than the erroneous translation above
which allows for smuggling of one's own works into the condemnation
into which each is born because of the guilt of Adam's sin,

and it allows for smuggling of one's own works into justification by faith alone.

For as by the one man's disobedience the many

Click to expand...

Note that men were made sinners, not because of what they did, but because of what Adam did.

Note that men were made righteous, not because of they they did, but because of what Christ did.
(Ro 5:19)

It's the principle of imputation:

Adam's sin is imputed to us, "just as"
Christ' righteousness is imputed to us,
neither being based on anything we did.

And because Adam's sin is imputed to us, we are born in the guilt of Adam's sin (Eph 2:1, 3; Col 2:13).

Hoffco · Feb 2, 2014

to all, Let me give you my answer: The law, sin and death was in the world even before the Law was not yet FORMALLY give, IE. written down for all generations to see and know. Do you all agree? The key is the word FORMALLY given. The Jews are coming out of Egypt, they need a written law, that was the setting of the FORMAL giving of the ORAL laws of God. Of course, much more was added to the law of God for the working of the NATION of Israel. OK? yahshua, I think you need to expand your bases for justification to what Elin and I are saying: Jesus' holy life, death and resurrection add to the base,ground, of justification. Love to all, Hoffco

Yahshua · Feb 2, 2014

Elin said:

Yahshua said:

Ok, so here’s my attempt at starting a contextual read of the book/letter of Romans...although, I’m not quite sure of the proper format. I've been thinking about it for a little while now and I’m not sure what would work best so I’m just gonna try something. My goal is to try to establish an unbroken chain of context in simple language as best as possible.

I was thinking I could post through Romans like we do on “The Bible verse by verse” thread, only with a few special guidelines...

Thread Guidelines:

1. Complete Thoughts

Passages from Romans must be posted in completed thoughts, regardless of chapter or verse markings, whether it’s a single line or several verses long.

[For example, Romans 1:1-6 can be comprehended as a single thought. While Romans 1:7 starts a separate thought.]

2. Format

Previous Context – Quote the previous conclusion/point that you're following.
Next Passage – Post the next portion of passage (complete thought) with verses
Conclusion/Point – As simple as possible what is Paul saying (following the context)?

3. Agreeing or Disagree

If you agree with an overall interpretation, “like” it...but please DON’T REPLY with agreement or commentary (to try to keep posts to a minimum).
I’m going to continue through as I have the time, but if you disagree with an overall interpretation of a passage, please post your alternative of that passage following the same format. Add “Alternative Interpretation to…” or something that lets readers know. But PLEASE refrain from splitting hairs unless the overall interpretation hinges on it.
If you’d like further elaboration of an interpretation request it here. But if you want to argue against an interpretation of a passage, please reference the portion and start a new thread about it (at least we’ll be able to pinpoint the source of our disagreements).
If you are asked to further explain an interpretation, you’re encouraged to reply with additional scriptural references if you choose to reply.

4. If a better format would work I’m open for suggestions. This is more or less by trial and error.

---

Feel free to use whichever translation you want, but in hopes of keeping it a simple read I'm using ESV (though I'm partial to KJV).

Then the translators of the ESV (English Standard Version) must be Judaizers too right, because I'm copying and pasting passages from their version...must've been part of their 1990s playbook?

Elin · Feb 2, 2014

Yahshua said:

Alternative.

After contrasting the one sin of Adam which brought condemnation on all men
with many sins under the law to which the gift brought justification (v. 20),

Paul concludes that "just as" the law made sin increase,
so sin made grace increase all the more, so that
"just as" sin reigned in death,
so grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life.

So in Ro 5:12-21, we learn that

our own sinfulness is not the ground for our condemnation,
it is our guilt of Adam's sin that condemns us,
the very nature with which we are born condemns us (Eph 2:3)

and our own holiness is not the ground for our justification,
Jesus Christ is, through faith alone.

Hoffco · Feb 2, 2014

Yahshua, Please keep your good, present format, it is very clear and easy to respond to. Your word "after" is very good in v,16, "after many offences" and Strong agree with this meaning of EK, out of, from, after, all three words are good for EK. pg.27, 1537. Hoffco

Hoffco · Feb 2, 2014

Elen, I think the spirit has a "form" with out the body. a spirit form , not matter as we know matter. And to don't think of Heaven as of being of totally spiritual forms. Jesus is building for us the New Jerusalem , Which will be a physical city coming out of Heaven to the new earth. a physical earth. I love to tell people we are going to enjoy the physical earth for ever. It makes peoples eyes light up in anticipation for the reward of the new earth as part of our inheritance. I warn people that when Jesus comes back, it will be a time of peace in Israel, so, it is not today, but then "sudden destruction" comes with the rapture of the Church; The whole world is on fire, they don't want to be left behind,. it is a great evangelizing point. I warn them, that after the rapture there is no salvation except for the 144,000 Jews. Love to all Hoffco

Hoffco · Feb 2, 2014

Elin and all, The GROUND of our salvation, (Sancti. and Justi. etc.) is the life, death and the resurrection of Jesus; But, the MEANS of out salvation is the Grace of god , our faith and our works. This is what I will die for. It is the whole truth. This is what I have been rejected for, all my life, by the apostate Church and church, (evang. and liberal), of today.Hoffco

Yahshua · Feb 2, 2014

Hoffco said:

Yes Hoffco, I actually agree with your first point that God's law existed from the beginning but wasn't formally given, else how could there be sin (because sin is breaking God's law; 1 John 3:4). But during this study, I was adamant with myself that I would not add additional scripture references to the text of the letter during initial interpretation, because that gives room to argue that I'm trying to push a doctrine instead of letting the text explain itself.

If this letter is all Paul sent to the Romans at the time, then he had to define everything he was talking about in this letter alone (whether sooner or later)...else how would the believers in Rome know what Paul was talking about? He would just be spouting nonsense to them.

If we need Paul's other letters to understand what Paul's saying in this letter, how would the believers in Rome have understood this letter when it was first given to them? You see what I mean?

So I only interpret a new thought based on the text I've previously crossed...and this is why it seems like some points are incomplete to you and Elin (and maybe others). I conclude points based only on the text that was covered so far (as if I'm one of the Roman believers reading this text for the first time).

Yahshua · Feb 2, 2014

Yahshua said:

Romans 6:3-4

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

What Paul's Saying...

(Specifically) Paul says the believer in Christ has been buried WITH Christ through baptism into death. And just as Christ was resurrected to new life, we have a new life that we might walk in.

[It's kind of a repeat...The text is pretty straight forward here.]

If you agree with this interpretation, “like” it.

If you disagree with this interpretation, post an alternative for others to agree with.

If you’d like further elaboration of any interpretation, feel free to ask them.

Click the arrow in any quote to view original post.

Elin · Feb 2, 2014

Yahshua said:

Alternative.

Paul's concern in Romans is with the Mosaic law.
His use of "law" refers to the Mosaic law only.

The time frame to which he refers when there was no law is from Adam to Moses.
There was no Mosaic law from Adam to Moses.

There was no transgression of the Mosaic law between Adam and Moses.
And where there was no transgression of the Mosaic law, sin was not taken into account;
i.e., there was no sin committed.
For in Romans, "sin" means transgression of the Mosaic law.

In Ro 1:16-17, God's power for salvation is the gospel, because in it is revealed a righteousness
from God that is by faith only.

Alternative.

1. The sin to which Paul is referring that entered the world causing death was Adam's
trespass only, against God's law, "Thou shalt not eat of it."

2. With the Mosaic law came more actual trespassing of God's law because now
there was a promulgated law to trespass, and it activated sin (7:7-9).

And now at last, Paul moves from righteousness "imputed" through faith only in 5:18-19
to righteousness "imparted" in sanctification, through the obedience of faith.

Hoffco · Feb 2, 2014

I see more of your original intent ,but I would reject your method of finding whole truth of the Bible. SO, what you are doing is called Biblical theology not Systematic theology; Which is Ok, good ,but ,it will take yrs. to come to a real systematic theo. using your approach; meanwhile ,the youny Christian is not getting the Whole truth, and will be discouraged, if not fooled,as Elin and homward is, Sorry, that they thinks they have an understanding of the whole truth , when they hves accepted a half truth ,which is a lie. this is the sickness of the Church today, half truths which are deceiving the Church. Love to all. Hoffco

Elin · Feb 2, 2014

Yahshua said:

Romans 6:3-4

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

What Paul's Saying...

(Specifically) Paul says the believer in Christ has been buried WITH Christ through baptism into death. And just as Christ was resurrected to new life, we have a new life that we might walk in.

[It's kind of a repeat...The text is pretty straight forward here.]

If you agree with this interpretation, “like” it.

If you disagree with this interpretation, post an alternative for others to agree with.

If you’d like further elaboration of any interpretation, feel free to ask them.

Click the arrow in any quote to view original post.

Like.

Because Christ died for sin, we die to sin.

Elin · Feb 2, 2014

Yahshua said:

Yes Hoffco, I actually agree with your first point that God's law existed from the beginning but wasn't formally given, else how could there be sin (because sin is breaking God's law; 1 John 3:4). But during this study, I was adamant with myself that I would not add additional scripture references to the text of the letter during initial interpretation, because that gives room to argue that I'm trying to push a doctrine instead of letting the text explain itself.

If this letter is all Paul sent to the Romans at the time, then he had to define everything he was talking about in this letter alone (whether sooner or later)...else how would the believers in Rome know what Paul was talking about? He would just be spouting nonsense to them.

If we need Paul's other letters to understand what Paul's saying in this letter, how would the believers in Rome have understood this letter when it was first given to them? You see what I mean?

So I only interpret a new thought based on the text I've previously crossed...and this is why it seems like some points are incomplete to you and Elin (and maybe others). I conclude points based only on the text that was covered so far (as if I'm one of the Roman believers reading this text for the first time).

Good, but don't forget that the letters were circulated among the churches.

So this may not have been their only written instruction from Paul.

Elin · Feb 2, 2014

Yahshua said:

I am really surprised by their futzing with the Greek.

Hoffco · Feb 2, 2014

Elin, you are missing a little phrase in 5:12,"because all sinned-"WHEN? in Adam, yes; but also by themselves. No one goes to Hell for Adams sin, only because of their sins. Our systematic theo. tells us this, as I said to Yahshua, we need the Systematic approach as well as the straight line Biblical theo. look at the context. Hoffco

Hoffco · Feb 2, 2014

From our systematic approach we know that Paul is talking of the Spiritual new birth by baptism of the Spirit, here, not water bap.. As seen in 1 cor 12:13 "...by one Spirit we are baptized into one body.." and Eph 4:4 "One lord one faith one baptism;"Hoffco

Elin · Feb 3, 2014

Yahshua said:

P.S. The real problems are the omissions in your dealing with the texts.

Likewise, don't you think it's fairly obvious that the purpose of a study is full understanding,
not fragmented understanding.

We won't understand the NT if we don't consider texts in light of all the NT.

Considering NT texts apart from the light of all the NT is the road to misunderstanding and false doctrine,
which we seem to find ourselves on much too frequently here.

Elin · Feb 3, 2014

Yahshua said:

On second thought,

you have omitted Paul's presentation of NT baptism here.

It is the when and how of our death to sin.
Note that in NT times water baptism closely followed conversion
and the two were considered one event (Ac 2:38: "Repent and be baptized
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins," which is salvation).

Our union with Christ in baptism into his death is a
union in the benefits purchased by his death, and
a union which enters into the purpose of his death, which was to redeem us from sin and,
therefore, conforms to the model of his death, by dying to sin, as he died for sin.

Baptism shows what happens as a result of our union with Christ, through faith by grace.
Through faith we are united with Christ,

as previously we were united with Adam through physical birth and, therefore, were born
without Holy Spirit life in our spirits (5:18a, 19a), and subject to physical death.

And being united with Christ, instead of Adam,
in baptism we have died with Christ, who died for sin,
and been raised with Christ, to die to sin.

homwardbound · Feb 3, 2014

Yahshua said:

Thanks Karraster. I see this thread is getting a lot of readers but not many chiming in for explanation. So I'm going to take the liberty to elaborate on this point for the reader's edification.

Reference: The word "atonement" comes from the Hebrew word "Kappur" and means "to cover".

There were two things needed for the symbolic foreshadowing ritual of Atonement: Blood and a pure High Priest.

1. Blood shed (received from the death of the pure animal)
2. A High Priest takes the blood in the Most Holy Place to sprinkle it
3. The Most Holy Place was in the Temple on Earth

...and in fulfillment of this...

1. Christ was the fulfillment of the animal whose blood would be shed
2. Christ was High Priest tasked to take his blood and sprinkling it in the Most Holy Place
3. The Most Holy Place was in the Temple in Heaven

Rhetorical: If Christ is both Lamb AND High Priest, how can he take his blood into heaven if (a) it was not yet shed out of his body after crucifixion and (b) he was not yet resurrected back to life to ascend to heaven and actually sprinkle it? The answer is "he can't". This is why Paul specifically says what he says in Romans 4:23-25.

Christ's death on the cross *provided* the pure blood FOR atonement/covering...but it did not atone; not yet. It's only in resurrection that our High Priest is alive to ascend to heaven to *perform* the atonement/covering on the heavenly altar.

Notice when Christ was finally resurrected that he told Mary not to touch him because he hadn't yet ascended to his Father. This means when he was dead for 3 days and 3 nights he wasn't yet in the Most Holy Place in heaven to cover believers with his blood.

It's his resurrection from the grave that's for the believer's justification, not his death on the cross. Christ's death on the cross was another work; it was the payment (i.e. "end") for our sin penalty on our behalf (one of multiple tasks he had to complete per Daniel 9:24)...but Christ's resurrection into heaven was for our reconciliation to God.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
So are we justified in Spirit if we believe we receive and see, God does the revealing, thanks

The Letter to the Romans...

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