God doesn't seem to really care.

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Dec 15, 2013
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Hokay, let's try a different angle. Would you have parents dictate every single thought and action to their children? Would you give children absolutely no freedom at all? Is your question perhaps, "why are we failure prone humans and not pre-programmed robots who cannot fail?"
No. im saying, is this really the best system that could be implemented? Like yea this system is better than "mindless robots"... But is it the best system possible? Cuz it does not seem so. Nothing ever existing would be much better than mindless robots (right?) but it would also be better than the current system. not saying i want a "perfect" system. just a better one. is this really the best system? There has to be a better one. but the god of the bible says "sin" is the reason why things can't be better. but how do you know that the system can't be better? You just trust that god has done the best for us. but what if he has not?
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Well one question popped into my head while reading this: why did god not make us more able to understand him? To keep us humble? But we are apparently not humble anyway, so what was the point?
the existence of sin might be an answer to that. in the bible people like Moses and the prophets understood God in a way that most men didn't, even though they didn't understand him completely. these men were called 'righteous' even while they still had flaws. later in the new testament it was taught that it was their faith that made them righteous (in Hebrews) - and that faith made them live lives with less sin than ordinary people. so the two principles of faith and avoiding sin are connected, and understanding God seems to go hand-in-hand. certainly the more we devote our thoughts to God, the less we do to ourselves, and that leads to more 'righteous living' - and who is going to understand God that hasn't put any thought into it?

the god in the bible says we have to trust him before we can know him, that we are poisoned and that he can heal us, if we trust him to do so - and that until we are healed we can't really know him.

if we assume the way He's made things is best, then He must consider trust without complete understanding to be better than understanding him first, and then trusting. a lot of human systems are the same way - a good servant, soldier, employee or computer code operates effectively on very little information. it does it's job without a big data packet being stored and moved around, or without sending out the complete battle plan or design specs to everyone.
maybe God is just cutting down on unnecessary paperwork!


Of course i guess this is another "don't question and just accept" things... but where would we be if no one ever questioned anything? We would still be in the stone age. so i don't see why you should "not question and just accept"
haha i don't always fall back to that. the way i think, i don't want to 'judge' God, but i still want to understand Him. it's like having a crashed spaceship to look at -- i take for granted that the technology is superior, so when the systems aren't like earth technology, i want to find out why, and i might have to throw away my preconceptions of good engineering, and accept some cogs and circuit boards as 'black boxes' until i've learned more.

And some things have been questioned since the beggining of time and the answer was just discovered recently. So, who knows what we can understand if we questuon it long enough.
yes!
but "long enough" may be a lot longer than our lifetimes.

when people get into science vs religion arguments, they often forget or downplay how much faith is involved in science. the whole basis of doing physics and trying to find natural laws to describe how the universe works is the assumption that there are natural laws, and that rigorous mathematics can be used to describe how everything happens. this really is just an assumption - there's no 'reason' that everything should follow a pattern and that pattern should be the same all over the universe, all throughout time -- but doing science is trusting that that's the case.

performing a 'god experiment' can be like looking for a higgs boson - we may need to build bigger and bigger spiritual 'atom smashers' even while every one we've built so far didn't give us any results. it may take more energy than the sum of all the resources in the solar system to build one big enough. we may need to build giant water reservoirs miles under the surface of the earth and wait centuries before an unlikely collision takes place - our grandchildren may not even live to see evidence. we may have to build some great detector or apparatus in outer space, that our technology and resources can't accomplish, but may one day if we don't blow ourselves up first in some petty war.

maybe understanding God is most like needing a spaceship that can travel to some distant star. it's something we cannot do firsthand until we've devoted enormous resources to it, and then it may be that only our great great great grandchildren get to see it, because of the faith we had when we built the generation ship. or like evidence of life after death - no one can be sure until they've died, and those that passed over can't come back to give us the results.

it's a catch-22 -- we won't know if we don't spend an enormous amount of time and energy, and we won't know if all that time and energy was worth it until after we spend it. the bigger question becomes whether or not the first question is worth finding an answer to!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,442
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No. im saying, is this really the best system that could be implemented? Like yea this system is better than "mindless robots"... But is it the best system possible? Cuz it does not seem so. Nothing ever existing would be much better than mindless robots (right?) but it would also be better than the current system.
here's God's love for us - He would rather that we exist, even in this flawed way, than not at all, and He's put in us a desire for a better existence, in which we know Him, understand Him, and there is no imperfection -- the seed of our love for Him is built into us.

like people say, "absence makes the heart go fonder"
 
Dec 15, 2013
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the existence of sin might be an answer to that. in the bible people like Moses and the prophets understood God in a way that most men didn't, even though they didn't understand him completely. these men were called 'righteous' even while they still had flaws. later in the new testament it was taught that it was their faith that made them righteous (in Hebrews) - and that faith made them live lives with less sin than ordinary people. so the two principles of faith and avoiding sin are connected, and understanding God seems to go hand-in-hand. certainly the more we devote our thoughts to God, the less we do to ourselves, and that leads to more 'righteous living' - and who is going to understand God that hasn't put any thought into it?

the god in the bible says we have to trust him before we can know him, that we are poisoned and that he can heal us, if we trust him to do so - and that until we are healed we can't really know him.

if we assume the way He's made things is best, then He must consider trust without complete understanding to be better than understanding him first, and then trusting. a lot of human systems are the same way - a good servant, soldier, employee or computer code operates effectively on very little information. it does it's job without a big data packet being stored and moved around, or without sending out the complete battle plan or design specs to everyone.
maybe God is just cutting down on unnecessary paperwork!




haha i don't always fall back to that. the way i think, i don't want to 'judge' God, but i still want to understand Him. it's like having a crashed spaceship to look at -- i take for granted that the technology is superior, so when the systems aren't like earth technology, i want to find out why, and i might have to throw away my preconceptions of good engineering, and accept some cogs and circuit boards as 'black boxes' until i've learned more.



yes!
but "long enough" may be a lot longer than our lifetimes.

when people get into science vs religion arguments, they often forget or downplay how much faith is involved in science. the whole basis of doing physics and trying to find natural laws to describe how the universe works is the assumption that there are natural laws, and that rigorous mathematics can be used to describe how everything happens. this really is just an assumption - there's no 'reason' that everything should follow a pattern and that pattern should be the same all over the universe, all throughout time -- but doing science is trusting that that's the case.

performing a 'god experiment' can be like looking for a higgs boson - we may need to build bigger and bigger spiritual 'atom smashers' even while every one we've built so far didn't give us any results. it may take more energy than the sum of all the resources in the solar system to build one big enough. we may need to build giant water reservoirs miles under the surface of the earth and wait centuries before an unlikely collision takes place - our grandchildren may not even live to see evidence. we may have to build some great detector or apparatus in outer space, that our technology and resources can't accomplish, but may one day if we don't blow ourselves up first in some petty war.

maybe understanding God is most like needing a spaceship that can travel to some distant star. it's something we cannot do firsthand until we've devoted enormous resources to it, and then it may be that only our great great great grandchildren get to see it, because of the faith we had when we built the generation ship. or like evidence of life after death - no one can be sure until they've died, and those that passed over can't come back to give us the results.

it's a catch-22 -- we won't know if we don't spend an enormous amount of time and energy, and we won't know if all that time and energy was worth it until after we spend it. the bigger question becomes whether or not the first question is worth finding an answer to!
here's God's love for us - He would rather that we exist, even in this flawed way, than not at all, and He's put in us a desire for a better existence, in which we know Him, understand Him, and there is no imperfection -- the seed of our love for Him is built into us.

like people say, "absence makes the heart go fonder"
Hmm... well i could pose a few doubts and questions about this but im rather discouraged about my attempts at better understanding... Sorry :/
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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No. im saying, is this really the best system that could be implemented? Like yea this system is better than "mindless robots"... But is it the best system possible? Cuz it does not seem so. Nothing ever existing would be much better than mindless robots (right?) but it would also be better than the current system. not saying i want a "perfect" system. just a better one. is this really the best system? There has to be a better one. but the god of the bible says "sin" is the reason why things can't be better. but how do you know that the system can't be better? You just trust that god has done the best for us. but what if he has not?
Well I'll give you that there, the system that's currently in place does suck. It is certainly not the best. But it's not the one God promised us. Adam blew that for all of us way back when. There is a better system, a perfect one, and I don't have to trust that God has done the best because I've seen it and He has. He knows this is all wrong, that's why He sent Christ to make it right. See, God may have all the power, but He doesn't want it. He doesn't want robots, He wants people who'll love Him because they want to, not because they have to. So He gave us the power to reject the most powerful force in the universe, so that He can trust us in whether our love is true or not. And for those who's love is true, He does have a better system waiting in the wings, the one He originally intended for us. And yeah, I know it's there. I've seen it.
 
Dec 15, 2013
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the existence of sin might be an answer to that. in the bible people like Moses and the prophets understood God in a way that most men didn't, even though they didn't understand him completely. these men were called 'righteous' even while they still had flaws. later in the new testament it was taught that it was their faith that made them righteous (in Hebrews) - and that faith made them live lives with less sin than ordinary people. so the two principles of faith and avoiding sin are connected, and understanding God seems to go hand-in-hand. certainly the more we devote our thoughts to God, the less we do to ourselves, and that leads to more 'righteous living' - and who is going to understand God that hasn't put any thought into it?

the god in the bible says we have to trust him before we can know him, that we are poisoned and that he can heal us, if we trust him to do so - and that until we are healed we can't really know him.

if we assume the way He's made things is best, then He must consider trust without complete understanding to be better than understanding him first, and then trusting. a lot of human systems are the same way - a good servant, soldier, employee or computer code operates effectively on very little information. it does it's job without a big data packet being stored and moved around, or without sending out the complete battle plan or design specs to everyone.
maybe God is just cutting down on unnecessary paperwork!




haha i don't always fall back to that. the way i think, i don't want to 'judge' God, but i still want to understand Him. it's like having a crashed spaceship to look at -- i take for granted that the technology is superior, so when the systems aren't like earth technology, i want to find out why, and i might have to throw away my preconceptions of good engineering, and accept some cogs and circuit boards as 'black boxes' until i've learned more.



yes!
but "long enough" may be a lot longer than our lifetimes.

when people get into science vs religion arguments, they often forget or downplay how much faith is involved in science. the whole basis of doing physics and trying to find natural laws to describe how the universe works is the assumption that there are natural laws, and that rigorous mathematics can be used to describe how everything happens. this really is just an assumption - there's no 'reason' that everything should follow a pattern and that pattern should be the same all over the universe, all throughout time -- but doing science is trusting that that's the case.

performing a 'god experiment' can be like looking for a higgs boson - we may need to build bigger and bigger spiritual 'atom smashers' even while every one we've built so far didn't give us any results. it may take more energy than the sum of all the resources in the solar system to build one big enough. we may need to build giant water reservoirs miles under the surface of the earth and wait centuries before an unlikely collision takes place - our grandchildren may not even live to see evidence. we may have to build some great detector or apparatus in outer space, that our technology and resources can't accomplish, but may one day if we don't blow ourselves up first in some petty war.

maybe understanding God is most like needing a spaceship that can travel to some distant star. it's something we cannot do firsthand until we've devoted enormous resources to it, and then it may be that only our great great great grandchildren get to see it, because of the faith we had when we built the generation ship. or like evidence of life after death - no one can be sure until they've died, and those that passed over can't come back to give us the results.

it's a catch-22 -- we won't know if we don't spend an enormous amount of time and energy, and we won't know if all that time and energy was worth it until after we spend it. the bigger question becomes whether or not the first question is worth finding an answer to!
here's God's love for us - He would rather that we exist, even in this flawed way, than not at all, and He's put in us a desire for a better existence, in which we know Him, understand Him, and there is no imperfection -- the seed of our love for Him is built into us.

like people say, "absence makes the heart go fonder"
Ok then, so i guess the only question is; does sin really exist? And is what god says really best?

Well my heart has not grown fonder for god or heaven. from what i can tell heaven is too perfect. i dont want it to be so perfect. i want it to have flaws. just not as many or as big of flaws as earth does.
 
Dec 15, 2013
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Well I'll give you that there, the system that's currently in place does suck. It is certainly not the best. But it's not the one God promised us. Adam blew that for all of us way back when. There is a better system, a perfect one, and I don't have to trust that God has done the best because I've seen it and He has. He knows this is all wrong, that's why He sent Christ to make it right. See, God may have all the power, but He doesn't want it. He doesn't want robots, He wants people who'll love Him because they want to, not because they have to. So He gave us the power to reject the most powerful force in the universe, so that He can trust us in whether our love is true or not. And for those who's love is true, He does have a better system waiting in the wings, the one He originally intended for us. And yeah, I know it's there. I've seen it.
Well i have not seen it.

Besides, i dont want it to be like in the garden of eden... that does not sound best to me... and heaven does not sound best either... If i could design my own heaven it would surely be different from the one god has designed.

And is his design really best for me? You can say it is but maybe its not.

Cuz my own design seems to be better for me personally and if my design seems to be better then that is what im gonna wish for.
 
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GodisGlorious

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Jun 12, 2012
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He absolutely loves and cares for us. I know it. Alll the thoughts that you think that say otherwise are just veils that keep you from Him. Let them go and ask for His thoughts and ways. Ask for Him. He is your hearts desire! Put your eyes on him and never let them move.
 
Dec 15, 2013
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Ok so why won't the god of the bible design a heaven for each of us exactly how we want it? If people wanna be with him in his perfect heaven, they can.(what he says is best) If people wanna be in my slightly flawed heaven, they can.(what i think is best) If they wanna be in their own version of a slightly flawed heaven, they can. (whatever they think is best)

why won't god do this?
 

GodisGlorious

Senior Member
Jun 12, 2012
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Because He knows what we really need and desire and we may think we do but we dont.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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Ok so why won't the god of the bible design a heaven for each of us exactly how we want it? If people wanna be with him in his perfect heaven, they can.(what he says is best) If people wanna be in my slightly flawed heaven, they can.(what i think is best) If they wanna be in their own version of a slightly flawed heaven, they can. (whatever they think is best)

why won't god do this?
When I was an immature boy of a teenager I once believed heaven was what you wanted it to be so I thought it would be filled with women that were ready to have sex with you at your whim, with video games that had the bestest graphics that there could ever be and an ever amount of pot, alcohol and death metal.
Since receiving the spirit of God, my entire world view has changed, I see the effects of sin in people and the world, not just me that sees it but millions would see it and desire nothing that is on this earth to be in heaven. It would suck if heaven was anything like earth the way it is. I believe you want a bit of earth in heaven, because you belong to the world so you want it in heaven, those who don't belong to the world, want nothing of it...does that make sense? Maybe it never will until you surrender your life to God and receive His spirit, then it will eventually become clear, until then your stuck with your own limited understanding.
 
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homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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Well, if god knew all that would hapoen ahead of time, then he planned it out. putting a plan into effect that would ultimately end up in lots of people going to hell, regardless of the reason.

Does not seem like any reason can justify that but never creating anything could be justified.
Quite the opposite for through Son, Jesus Christ we are made back right with Father being given a new life in Spirit. By the resurrected Christ
Colossians 1:22
in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:



You see that verse above, by Son Christ you are presented to God as Holy why? Did you cause the fall? Did you ask to be born here on earth? See the Mercy, see the new life in trusting a saving Father through Son. All Father asks is for you to believe Father and not man, as you have discovered to not trust man.
God does just love you.
I cam give you many more scriptures that state we are forgiven by Christ a done deal, that is the Mercy from God the Father of Christ


 

homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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No... not alone in that. though i do seem to obsess over it more than most people. just can't help it.
Thoughts get cemented in by and through experiences, and the emotions from those thoughts take over and we become kidnapped.
Do you think this might be possible here when you say you can't help it?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Oh ok... guess i misunderstood what you meant. sorry.
No problem that is why we hope to debate and not condemn and hear each other, understand in God's true way of love.
We all I think want to communicate without condemnation, at least I hope and pray so
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Well one question popped into my head while reading this: why did god not make us more able to understand him? To keep us humble? But we are apparantly not humble anyway, so what was the point?

Of course i guess this is another "don't question and just accept" things... but where would we be if no one ever questioned anything? We would still be in the stone age. so i don't see why you should "not question and just accept"

and im sure people in the stone age thought it would be impossible to ever know as much as we know today. (like what that bright, yellow thing in the sky is)... And yes i know they did not use descriptive words like "bright" and "yellow" or any modern words at all ... Just making a point. but they were wrong. And some things have been questioned since the beggining of time and the answer was just discovered recently. So, who knows what we can understand if we questuon it long enough.
The one's that ? remain a fool for a short time
The one's that do not ? remain fools forever
I personally believe God wants me to ? God. for God says God after belief is my teacher in Hebrews 8. I personally remain ot trust whatever answer I hear in the Spirit.\

 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Well yea. Thats good if its the real truth that drives you and not just lies perceived as truth. i dont wanna be driven by lies. the hard part, in some cases, is determining which things are lies and which things are true. which is what im trying to do. and i havent determined that yet but i am gathering more information which is the key to discovering truth cuz even if you have some false information, you can discover true information that cancels the false stuff out. im sure everyone already knows this lol just sayin thats one of the multiple methods im using to help in my goals.
Absolutely, if you stick a pencil in a glass of water, does it appear to be broken? Is it?
If you look far down a railroad track does it appear to one? Is it
Thank you and please continue to do close examinming
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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No. im saying, is this really the best system that could be implemented? Like yea this system is better than "mindless robots"... But is it the best system possible? Cuz it does not seem so. Nothing ever existing would be much better than mindless robots (right?) but it would also be better than the current system. not saying i want a "perfect" system. just a better one. is this really the best system? There has to be a better one. but the god of the bible says "sin" is the reason why things can't be better. but how do you know that the system can't be better? You just trust that god has done the best for us. but what if he has not?
Right now, God is waiting for all that will believe and when that is fulfilled a new Earth and New heaven will be. God is Merciful amd wishes for all to come to him who are heavy laden and burdened as you are, and in the Spirit will give you rest, if you decide to believe
That is the only thing Christ never went to the cross for is unbelief
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Ok so why won't the god of the bible design a heaven for each of us exactly how we want it? If people wanna be with him in his perfect heaven, they can.(what he says is best) If people wanna be in my slightly flawed heaven, they can.(what i think is best) If they wanna be in their own version of a slightly flawed heaven, they can. (whatever they think is best)

why won't god do this?
So do you know what is best? Can you predict future? I came to the conclusion I can't and had many unrealistic expectations, and got depressed many a times. So I decided to trust the creator of all, and have not been disappointed since, even though tragedies still happened, but by trust I lived through them without depression that I had.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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Well i have not seen it.

Besides, i dont want it to be like in the garden of eden... that does not sound best to me... and heaven does not sound best either... If i could design my own heaven it would surely be different from the one god has designed.

And is his design really best for me? You can say it is but maybe its not.

Cuz my own design seems to be better for me personally and if my design seems to be better then that is what im gonna wish for.
Very interesting. How would you design 'heaven'? And do you know that we don't actually go to 'heaven'?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I have loved you, saith the Lord.
Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us?

(Malachi 1:2)