The Letter to the Romans...

[homwardbound]

It was by human hands with water in Ac 2:38, 8:16, 36, 10:45-46, 19:5-6; Mt 28:19.

Yes and no Sister, what does man have to do with God's gift?
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

The day of Pentecost was not by human hands, it was by God's Holy Spirit, using their willing dead selves to be used by God and by the Holy Spirit tha tis sent life comes from that alone. Otherwise why did they have to wait? They already knew the truth
New life comes from God and God alone Sister, not by any Human effort. We are nothing more that vessels to be used by God and only if we are willing. Just as we are the master of a water glass, we use the water glass at our choice not the glasses choice
Praying I clearer on this:
By Faith in the finished work of Christ, death first, for our death and then new life in the Spirit, where this is the only place today God can be worshiped in Spirit and truth

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

Then perhaps you should call it that instead of renaming it.

However, it takes a lot more than the words and the verses on a subject to rightly divide the word.

Great Posts Elin!
'Systematic theology', has destroyed the church,
in it's ability to study and hear the Holy Spirit in rightly dividing the Word of Truth!

Once people write all these things down, in a systematic theology, it takes the place of Scripture!
There are ways to hold on to Doctrines and Truths of God as we preach and re-preach from the Scripture,
now for 2 millennium;
without deciding with our final authority for everyone else what they can believe.
Outside of faith in Jesus Christ, in the Word as it is unsealed to us.
just my thoughts

 

[homwardbound]

To homwardbound,Your post 352 is great. But #353 is of your sinful "flesh". Your too are ignorant of the great trues of the Word of God,. You and Elin are the same, you both teach a Gnosticism that God hates. You both go beyond the clear
"paradoxical " words of God and build you own false doctrine. Like salvation is "absolutely free" NO WAY. it is "free" but not absolutely free, there are "strings"attached to the free gift. Love the whole truth, Hoffco

I am not Gnostic, I do believe God came in the flesh through the Son Jesus Chirst and is the propitiation for not only my sins, I have committed but also for the whole worlds
Born of the Virgin Mary, raised in flesh, ( the only flesh that ever pleased God) or ever will
Went to the cross for me and all people here in the world, died raised back to life for all that believe to come to new life in the Spirit of God. A free gift from Father to all that believe Father.
First dead to flesh, Christ was crucified for us to be crucified with him in the flesh and we are to reckon self dead to flesh (sin) by this death, and alive to God by the rfesurrected Christ,. justified in the Spirit of God, and we see by trust (Faith) we walk as Chirst walked in 100% dependent on Father to lead us, yet you seem to be promoting flesh works are you?

 

[homwardbound]

God keeps developing my systematic theo. by my Biblical theo. studying of each passage as I read the Word Of God. In rom.2:26 I see an other indicator that the Gentiles in 2:14-27 are born again Gentiles: v26"Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you (Jew) who even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?" How can "the righteous requirements of the law" be "fulfilled" by an unsaved person? Only the saved person can live the law of love and keep the spirit of the law, ask for forgiveness when he braked the law. This is a characteristic of the saved person of Rom. 8: 4" That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." This is why 8:2 says "For the law of the
Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Now we can keep the Law. Love to all Hoffco

Would this not be the new Law and the new priesthood?
[h=3]Hebrews 7:11-12[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? [SUP]12 [/SUP]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

You keep saying love to all, isn't that what is the new law, to love all:



Luke 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

Please be careful as in to condemn others when there is none for all that:



[h=3]Romans 8:1[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[homwardbound]

Elin, You continue to deny the clear words of scripture. You claim there is no other righteousness on earth except the righteous by faith in Jesus which God imputes to us. We keep quoting verse after verse that proves that the saved, born again, of God are God's "slaves" of God, "doers of good" of righteousness, commanded to be holy, told not to love the world or we will be lost. why should we keep talking if you don't listen? BUT, for those who listen, I will give more proof of the righteous deeds of the saved, Mt.25:26 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous to everlasting life." Jesus was very clear, the "these" were those who did no deeds of kindness, but the "righteous" were those who do deeds of kindness. The warning Paul gives in 1cor. 3:5-15 is to his fellow works like Apollus. If their
(our) labor in the Kingdom of God, "the field" is the people, the assemble, we work with, teach; If our work stands the text of time and adversity, we will get a reward. But, if not, we will be saved,but as by fire. There is nothing wrong with the workers righteous life, but they taught wrong things, like "faith only" salvation, so people though they didn't need to be good, so the were lost; Because they didn't add to the faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness,love. 2Pet.1 No fruits of righteousness= no eternal life.! love to all who live godly in Christ Jesus. Hoffco

Which is true works? Flesh or the Spirit of God?

 

[Elin]

None can be saved by works, but one can be cast out because of evil works.

Nope.

A life of evil works manifests counterfeit faith, which does not save.

They can be cast out because they were never saved in the first place, their faith was counterfeit
(Mt 7:21-23).

Hebrews 6:3-6, "If indeed Yahweh permits, we will now proceed to advanced teaching. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, And the righteous, having come to know that which is spoken by Yahweh through the Law and the Prophets, the power of Yahweh, and the world to come, If they shall fall away, it is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance again.
They have rejected the Son of Yahweh, and therefore are alienated from Yahweh."

What a watering down of the text from the Judaizers' playbook for the Bible.

The Greek reads at vv. 4-6:

"For it is impossible those being once enlightened, and having tasted of the heavenly gift,
and becoming sharers of Holy Spirit, and having tasted good word of God, and works of power
of a coming age, and falling away, again to renew to repentance,
crucifying to themselves again the Son of God, and putting him to open shame."

Substitution of "alienated from God" for the wording of the Greek text is a flagrant Judaizing
self-serving watering down of the original text.

Hebrews 10:26-30

, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Those who rejected the Law given through Mosheh died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished, who has trampled the Son of Yahweh underfoot, and has counted the blood of the covenant (with which He was sanctified) an unholy thing, and who has insulted the Spirit of mercy? For we know Him Who has said: Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says Yahweh. And again: Yahweh will judge His people."

And v. 31: It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The letter to the Hebrews is addressed to Christians who were considering returning to Judaism
because of the rejection and persecution of their families and friends.
The writer is warning them that to abandon Christianity and return to Judaism is to abandon Christ
Jesus, his sacrificial atonement which paid for their sin, and they have no forgiveness of sin
which gives them right standing before God and, therefore, they will be God's enemies (Ro 5:10),
for "there no longer remains a sacrifice for (their) sins."

The faith of any who chose to go back was thereby shown to be counterfeit,
and they were never saved in the first place.
The faith of those who remained gave evidence of a true saving faith, which faith is why they remained.

Yahchanan 5:14, "Afterward, Yahshua found him in the sacred precincts and said to him: Behold, you are healed. Sin no more, or a worse thing will come upon you."

Romans 3:25, "Whom Yahweh set forth as a sacrifice of atonement by His own blood, through the faith, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of Yahweh."

1 Corinthians 9:24-27, "Do you not know that those who run in a race all compete, but only one receives the prize? So run your race that you may lay hold of the prize, and make it yours. And everyone who competes conducts himself temperately in all things. Now they compete to obtain a perishable crown; but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore, I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man who beats the air. No, I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified."
1 Corinthians 4:4-5, "For I know nothing by myself; yet by this I am not justified, for He Who judges me is Yahweh! Therefore, judge nothing before the time. Wait until Yahshua comes, Who will bring to light the things hidden in darkness, and will reveal the secret intentions of men's hearts; and then each man will receive praise from Yahweh."

Psalm 69:27-28, "Add iniquity to their iniquity! Let them not come into Your righteousness! May they be blotted out of The Book of Life, and not be written with the righteous!"

Revelation 3:5, "He who overcomes, the same will be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name from The Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His malakim."

Yaaqob 2:19-22, "You believe that there is one Father? You do well; the demons also believe, and tremble. But are you willing to know, O vain man, that the faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you see that the faith worked together with his works, and by works the faith makes perfect?"

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

None of the above present the possibility of losing saving faith.

The NT presents exactly the opposite: that God himself preserves true saving faith
in the believer (Php 1:6, 2:13; Heb 10:14; 1Pe 1:5).

Nor do any of the above present justification (guiltlessness, right standing before God)
based on anything but faith alone, no works of obedience involved, as is shown in
Abraham's justification by faith alone, no works involved (Ge 15:6; Ro 4).

 

[Hoffco]

To homwardbound, your post 384 is a good inquiry into the whole truth. Please keep in mind your over all view ,"systematic" view of the Bible comes from studying each passage. We must be sure we view each word and verse in its setting, If we twist the passage then our over all view of the Bible will be wrong. So, our Biblical theo. is the key ,base, upon we build our Systematic theo.. I think your view of "flesh" trips you up a lot. I think you are too monastic in you view of the "flesh". I think, you reject, or view, your body as a necessary "evil" you have to put up with until you die. This is not good. Your body of flesh is good, If it is used holy, enjoyed holy, as God commands. Paul condemns the "flesh"=sin nature= principle of evil, but not our physical body. Christians are not in the sin nature , but, yet still in the physical body of flesh which is good if used right. All the physical is holy if we live according to the written law of God. Love to all, this is not new, but the same commandments written on the tablets of stone and now written on our hearts. Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

To Hizikyah, your text in Heb.6 takes the liberty of changing the words of the Greek text, This is not a safe translation. What Bible do you use? WE must not allow the translator to interpret the text for us. The living Bible is nice reading but bad to study from. Love the true text of God only. Hoffco You are still using good passages to combat the error at hand. But beware of using too many Old Testament verses that are not clear as the New T. texts. Peter tells us that the O.T. prophets didn't comprehend the truth the Holy Spirit was telling them. The N. interprets the O.

 

[Hoffco]

Elin, You rightly condemn "counterfeit" faith. Faith is no good without works, good. I also believe in , "once saved always saved". Heb . 6 is warning the unsaved to get saved before they are forever lost. The key to understand Heb. 6:1-8 is vs. 9-15. PLease keep in mind ,the letters of the N.T. are used to comfort the saved, but, to warn the lost. Love the whole truth, Hoffco

 

[homwardbound]

To homwardbound, your post 384 is a good inquiry into the whole truth. Please keep in mind your over all view ,"systematic" view of the Bible comes from studying each passage. We must be sure we view each word and verse in its setting, If we twist the passage then our over all view of the Bible will be wrong. So, our Biblical theo. is the key ,base, upon we build our Systematic theo.. I think your view of "flesh" trips you up a lot. I think you are too monastic in you view of the "flesh". I think, you reject, or view, your body as a necessary "evil" you have to put up with until you die. This is not good. Your body of flesh is good, If it is used holy, enjoyed holy, as God commands. Paul condemns the "flesh"=sin nature= principle of evil, but not our physical body. Christians are not in the sin nature , but, yet still in the physical body of flesh which is good if used right. All the physical is holy if we live according to the written law of God. Love to all, this is not new, but the same commandments written on the tablets of stone and now written on our hearts. Hoffco

No one good except Father per Christ. We do not have righteousness, never will of our own, but we do have righteousness and it is not ours, it is Father's and there is no new life without death through the cross of Christ
No flesh ever pleases Father. The only flesh that ever did, was Christ's and he was born perfect of the virgin Mary, whom we go through for Father to give us new life in the Spirit, exactly what Christ came to do, give us life and more abundantly, whethewr we are poor or rich, all God and none of you, me or anyone else.
It is what it is

[h=3]Romans 8[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [SUP]4 [/SUP]that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [SUP]8 [/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. [SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:



I am not per you apparently who I think I am. I am apparently waht I think you think I am,NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God knows who are his and who are not, as well as each person does, whether a professor or a possessor
Thank you Hoffco, you do cause ethings, yet only for Father's good, not knowing your purpose, nor you mine, great debate

 

[Hoffco]

Yes, this is "a great debate". Homward. Please think of all the wonderful, God pleasing men and women, in all history, who were ,are, holy living God fearing people. You can not say, "no flesh (men) have ever pleased God" Saved persons in all ages have walked in the Spirit and obeyed God. Romans is telling us their story ,Abraham, Sarah, others, so, we could do likewise. No one, in this body, is perfect, but we try very hard to love and obey God, We make it our "aim" to please God, and when I fail, I confess it to God and man, to whom I have hurt. Your "new" theology (gnostic) of "faith only" ,with no effort on your part,"let go and let God do all the work" is not always appropriate, at times, it can be dead wrong. We must follow Godly example in faith and patience to inherit the promise, like Abraham, Heb. 6:11-15. LOve the whole truth, Hoffco

 

[konroh]

Hebrews 6 speaks to salvation-sanctification, not to salvation-justification. We do indeed have persevering faith to inherit the promises. This is a reward. Not all believers will inherit all the promises. Those who persevere inherit more. This is what Paul means in Rom. 2 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

I know some of you will object to the idea that the above verses are speaking about believers, but how else are we to understand the clear point that 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:and 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.

Just taking the words at face value.

 

[homwardbound]

Yes, this is "a great debate". Homward. Please think of all the wonderful, God pleasing men and women, in all history, who were ,are, holy living God fearing people. You can not say, "no flesh (men) have ever pleased God" Saved persons in all ages have walked in the Spirit and obeyed God. Romans is telling us their story ,Abraham, Sarah, others, so, we could do likewise. No one, in this body, is perfect, but we try very hard to love and obey God, We make it our "aim" to please God, and when I fail, I confess it to God and man, to whom I have hurt. Your "new" theology (gnostic) of "faith only" ,with no effort on your part,"let go and let God do all the work" is not always appropriate, at times, it can be dead wrong. We must follow Godly example in faith and patience to inherit the promise, like Abraham, Heb. 6:11-15. LOve the whole truth, Hoffco

No Problem Hoffco, I personally put no confidence in the flesh as Paul so well said in:
[h=3]Philippians 3:1-11[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. [SUP]4[/SUP]Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: [SUP]5 [/SUP]circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; [SUP]6 [/SUP]concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: [SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

 

[homwardbound]

Hebrews 6 speaks to salvation-sanctification, not to salvation-justification. We do indeed have persevering faith to inherit the promises. This is a reward. Not all believers will inherit all the promises. Those who persevere inherit more. This is what Paul means in Rom. 2 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

I know some of you will object to the idea that the above verses are speaking about believers, but how else are we to understand the clear point that 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:and 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.

Just taking the words at face value.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

 

[Elin]

Hebrews 6 speaks to salvation-sanctification, not to salvation-justification.

Actually, Heb 6 speaks to apostasy and perseverance in faith of Hebrews who were considering
returning to Judaism because of the rejection and persecution of their families and friends.

It's one of the four warnings (4:1-13, 5:11-6:12, 10:19-39, 12:14-28) not to fail in belief,
as did their forefathers (3:7-19).

We do indeed have persevering faith to inherit the promises. This is a reward.

Paul uses "reward" in two different ways:

1) The inheritance (Col 4:24) of Jesus' own glory (2Th 2:14) in eternal life through faith alone,
which is the salvation of true saving faith.

All those of true saving faith receive this inheritance (reward) of eternal life by salvation.

2) The reward received in heaven, where entrance is based on eternal life (salvation),
for the quality of the believer's work on earth (1Co 3:12-15), and which
has no bearing on one's salvation (1Co 3:15).

It is in addition to the first "reward," but it is possible that not all the saved will receive it.

Context in the light of the NT determines which reward is meant.

In the context of the NT, your use of "reward" above is the first meaning.

Not all believers will inherit all the promises

Because not all faith is true saving faith, there is also counterfeit faith (Mt 7:21-23).
Counterfeit faith does not save and, therefore, does not receive any of God's promises.

Those who persevere inherit more.

Not exactly. . .

Only those who persevere in faith receive the inheritance (reward),
because those who do not persevere are not saved and receive no inheritance (reward).

All who persevere receive the inheritance (reward) of eternal life,
but may not receive an additional reward for the quality of their work.

While others who persevere and receive the inheritance (reward) of eternal life
may receive an additional reward for the quality of their work, so that
some of those who persevere may receive more than others who persevere.

This is what Paul means in Rom. 2 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

I know some of you will object to the idea that the above verses are speaking about believers, but how else are we to understand the clear point that 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:and 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.

Just taking the words at face value.

Let's take the words in context of the NT, where a person is saved not by what he does,
but by faith in what Christ does for him.

In Ro 2:1-16, Paul presents the principles that govern God's judgment:
1) according to truth (v.2), for those who hold the truth in unrighteousness,
2) according to deeds (vv. 6-11), for those who possess the Mosaic law,
3) according to the light a person has; i.e, conscience (vv. 12-15), for those who do not possess
the Mosaic law.

These are the groundwork for Paul's discussion of the guilt of the Jews in vv. 17-29.

In vv. 6-7, if anyone persists in doing good deeds (i.e., lives a perfect life), he will receive eternal life.
But no one can do this (Gal 3:10); however, if anyone could, God would give him life,
since God judges according to what a person does.

In vv. 8-12, since God judges according to what a person does, all who do evil will receive wrath.

And so, since all men do evil (Ro 3:10), God's wrath is on all men, Jew and Gentile alike (v. 9).
Thus, the need for a Savior.

 

[Hoffco]

To Konroh, You have a very wrong understanding of words. What do the words,"eternal life " means to you,? to all who know english, it means "eternal life" as opposed to eternal death. Heaven Not Hell. NOW the next words , Paul uses are "indignation and wrath," The meaning is obviously the opposite of eternal life, and wrath is what we Christians are saved from. Paul makes it very clear, that if our works are bad we get "wrath". (Hell) ; If ours works are good, we get "eternal life", (Heaven). Paul says the same thing in Gal.6:7-10 "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life...." Jesus said the same thing in Jh.5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice And come forth-those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." This is the clear teaching of all the Bible. The requireents for Heaven are: Repent, trust and obey. This false gospel of "faith only" is of the Devil. The false faith of justification only is of the Devil. A sinner must be converted, born of God and forgiven to be saved. Please stop speaking such lies.! Homward and Elin have this wrong also: But your words are even obnoxious to them. Please the time to study your dictionary before you speak. Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Time for another recap:

Twenty principles in Ro 1:1-5:11 were recapped here,

and following is a recap of prinicples in Ro 5:12-6:4:

21) Christ's blood was poured out (Lk 22:20) on the ground at the base of the cross (Jn 19:34, 36-37),
just as the animal's blood was poured out on the ground at the base of the altar
(Lev 4:7, 18, 25, 30, 34).

22) Just as the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies with the blood
to apply the cleansing benefits (Lev 16:16) of the sacrifice
to the front of the atonement cover (Lev 16:14),

so in Heb 9:23, Christ entered heaven itself (the presence of God)
to apply the cleansing benefits (forgiveness of sin) of a better sacrifice
to the heavenly things (the redeemed),
through his ever-living intercession for us in the presence of God (Heb 9:23-24).

23) Although sin was not taken into account between Adam and Moses
when there was no Mosaic law to transgress,
yet all mankind died as the result of sin (Ro 6:23).
So for what sin were all men held guilty and subject to death, when sin was not taken into account?
They were all held guilty of the sin of Adam. (Ro 5:12-17).

24) Just as the one act of trespass and disobedience of the first Adam made the many sinners
and resulted in their condemnation,
so the one act of obedience and righteousness of the second Adam made righteous and justified
the many.

Man was both made a sinner and made righteous, not because of what man did, but because of
what Adam and Christ did.

Man is born a sinner and unrighteous, because of Adam's sin "imputed" to him at conception (Ps 51:5).
Man is justified and made righteous because of Christ's righteousness "imputed" to him at rebirth.
(Ro 5:18-19)

25) Just as sin took occasion from the law to become more exceedingly sinful,
so grace took occasion from sin to appear more exceedingly gracious (Ro 5:20-21).

26) So in 5:12-21:

a) our own sinfulness is not the ground for our condemnation,
it is our guilt of Adam's sin that condemns us
the very nature with which we are born (sinful) condemns us (Eph 2:3); and

b) our own obedience/holiness is not the ground for our justification,
Jesus Christ is the only ground, through faith alone,
which is the burden of Ro 4 continued through Ro 5.

27) Baptism is the when and how of our death to sin.
When: in our union with Christ, in baptism, which is a union in the benefits of his death.
How: by entering into the purpose of his death - to redeem us from sin,
- - - -by conforming to the model of his death - who died for sin,
- - - -by being raised with Christ - to die to sin.

 

[Elin]

Con't from recap above, post #397:

The issues in prinicples (21) and (22) are:

1) God and the angels are spirit, not physical.
The dwelling place of God is not physical.

2) When Christ died, his Spirit departed his body (Jn 19:30, 10:18),
just as our spirits do the same at our deaths.
His Spirit did not remain in the grave with him.

3) Heb 9:23 does not necessitate Christ's rising physically from the dead in order for
the benefits of his sacrifice to be applied to the holy things (gospel graces of the redeemed,
from rebirth, to forgiveness of sin, to glorification).

4) It was done by his Spirit, the Holy Spirit, when his work was finished, and his Spirit departed
at his death (Jn 19:30), returned to God, and applied the benefits of his sacrifice.

5) And it is continued in his Spirit (Ro 8:27) where he makes ever-living intercession for us (Ro 8:34; Heb 7:25) in the presence of God (Heb 9:24).

 

[Hoffco]

Elin, You are more of a heretic than I thought. You ready don't believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus? As I said, YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TO READ AND YIELD TO THE BIBLE . Love Hoffco

 

[homwardbound]

Elin, You are more of a heretic than I thought. You ready don't believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus? As I said, YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TO READ AND YIELD TO THE BIBLE . Love Hoffco

Is not today here now and the only way today to serve God is in what:
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Yet you keep involving flesh as if our flesh pleases God when no flesh will, bible is very clear on this part and you refuse to see it. It is written in the word to more that just the Romans. Be it as you. you have free choice love you Hoffco
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.