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So you set Paul against himself in Ro 13:8, 9, 10 and Ro 3:31?
That is conclusive proof that you misunderstand the word of God,
for the word of God does not contradict itself.
Here is the word of God's agreement with itself in Ro 3:31 and Ro 13: 8, 9, 10.
We do not "establish the law" by being made righteous in keeping it. That is anti-gospel.
We "establish the law" in the NT by establishing the right use of the law,
we don't overthrow the law, we establish its standing by fixing it on the right basis;
i.e., although we cannot be saved by it as a covenant, we submit to it in Christ's two
commandments (Mt 22:37-39), which are subject to the law of grace.
That is conclusive proof that you misunderstand the word of God,
for the word of God does not contradict itself.
Here is the word of God's agreement with itself in Ro 3:31 and Ro 13: 8, 9, 10.
We do not "establish the law" by being made righteous in keeping it. That is anti-gospel.
We "establish the law" in the NT by establishing the right use of the law,
we don't overthrow the law, we establish its standing by fixing it on the right basis;
i.e., although we cannot be saved by it as a covenant, we submit to it in Christ's two
commandments (Mt 22:37-39), which are subject to the law of grace.
K
No, your right....we do not establish the law by being made righteous in keeping it. Jesus established it and completed it.
We are not made righteous in keeping the law, but being made righteous by Christ we keep the law, by the Spirit inside us.
Does God not bless you when you are obedient? Are you not disciplined when you are not? We discipline our children so they will follow the rules. If God is not chastening you, then we should be having an entirely different conversation here.
We are not made righteous in keeping the law, but being made righteous by Christ we keep the law, by the Spirit inside us.
Does God not bless you when you are obedient? Are you not disciplined when you are not? We discipline our children so they will follow the rules. If God is not chastening you, then we should be having an entirely different conversation here.
Tis you who set scripture against scripture. I find that Rom 3:31, Mat 19:17, Mat 22:37-40 and I John 5:2-3 all harmonize very well. I also find that Paul's statements that we are not saved by Law keeping and we are not under the penalty of the Law harmonize very well with the above scriptures I noted.
You seem to be the one who has to throw certain scripture out so that you can make others fit your humanly devised Law vs Grace doctrines. I find that all the scripture harmonizes with Law AND GRACE.
You seem to be the one who has to throw certain scripture out so that you can make others fit your humanly devised Law vs Grace doctrines. I find that all the scripture harmonizes with Law AND GRACE.
I note that you did not say you find Ro 13:8, 9, 10 and Ro 3:31 harmonize very well.
I note that you presented Ro 3:31 as a rebuttal to Ro 13:8, 9, 10.
I, therefore, note that you set the word of God against itself in Ro 13:8, 9, 10 and Ro 3:31.
And I note that is conclusive proof that you misunderstand the word of God,
for the word of God does not contradict itself.
I note that you presented Ro 3:31 as a rebuttal to Ro 13:8, 9, 10.
I, therefore, note that you set the word of God against itself in Ro 13:8, 9, 10 and Ro 3:31.
And I note that is conclusive proof that you misunderstand the word of God,
for the word of God does not contradict itself.
D
The Mormons say"Grace after all I can do." from the book of Mormon.
However, that contradicts Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And not of our our doing. It is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so no one may boast." Grace is not a fill in our gaps. Grace through faith (not grace plus works)is the free gift by which all go to Heaven. Yet grace for you is simply a free pass after you think you have sinned.
However, that contradicts Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And not of our our doing. It is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so no one may boast." Grace is not a fill in our gaps. Grace through faith (not grace plus works)is the free gift by which all go to Heaven. Yet grace for you is simply a free pass after you think you have sinned.
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H
To kittenof Melchisedek, "By being made righteous by Christ we keep the law, by the Spirit inside us." GOOD point; How about adding: and by the new nature which the Holy Spirit has created in us? AND To john832, "Grace is the vehicle that is used to forgive me when I sin." GOOD point. To Elin, Will you not acknowledge that God MAKES us HOLY beings with the new birth? And the standard of our righteousness is, now, the law of Christ? We are the servant of the one we OBEY. Rom. 6. Love to all, Hoffco
Well, what I must acknowledge is that (now hear me out)
while in justification our guilt is remitted, "wiped away,"
because our sin has been forgiven through faith alone,
we are not thereby made holy, we are only made guiltless,
and adopted into the family of God (no small change).
But it is after we are adopted into God's family by justification that we begin to take on
the family characteristic of holiness, through the obedience of faith; i.e., sanctification.
Remember, salvation is by the forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77) through faith alone, not by holiness.
Holiness follows forgiveness of sin, through the obedience of faith, by the power of grace.
I kinda' think that is what you are driving at--big change at rebirth,
but you think the change must mean sanctification.
No, the big change is forgiveness of sin, guiltlessness, and adoption into the family of God.
Holiness then follows, through the obedience of faith, as a member of the family.
Think about it. . .
while in justification our guilt is remitted, "wiped away,"
because our sin has been forgiven through faith alone,
we are not thereby made holy, we are only made guiltless,
and adopted into the family of God (no small change).
But it is after we are adopted into God's family by justification that we begin to take on
the family characteristic of holiness, through the obedience of faith; i.e., sanctification.
Remember, salvation is by the forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77) through faith alone, not by holiness.
Holiness follows forgiveness of sin, through the obedience of faith, by the power of grace.
I kinda' think that is what you are driving at--big change at rebirth,
but you think the change must mean sanctification.
No, the big change is forgiveness of sin, guiltlessness, and adoption into the family of God.
Holiness then follows, through the obedience of faith, as a member of the family.
Think about it. . .
K
I think you are Judeophobic... like I'm a stepford wife or something....come have dinner on Shabbat Elin, we're having matzo ball soup with matzo crackers, and we're all going to walk because that would be somehow less work than driving, come join us Elin, know any men we can circumcise??? Muahhaahahahahaha!!
Just kidding sister.
=P
Just kidding sister.
=P
D
I worked at Ceders Sinai Hospital which has many Jewish patrons. On sabbath, all the elevators stop at each floor, one by one, whether or not you Jewish. Seriously, is pushing a button work? Tying your shoes is more work. I thought that was so stupid. I bet if Jesus took one of those elevators He would shake His head back and forth in total disgust.
D
It was laughable at first, then we all became increasingly annoyed with stopping at every single floor. I don't recall the floor we were working on but is was around the 6th floor. Now if one had to walk up 6 stories worth of stairs, I would call that work but light pressure on a plastic button is less work than blowing you nose. Yet they rode in the elevator.
I heard one Jewish man say he needed to get home before sunrise or he would have to walk. I am sure Jesus would disagree with that kind of foolishness, even before He died.
I heard one Jewish man say he needed to get home before sunrise or he would have to walk. I am sure Jesus would disagree with that kind of foolishness, even before He died.
Great Post! Danschance
Showing how the doctrines of grace,
are virtually the same between the god makers and the Dispensationalist, Judaisers!
Who believe Jesus made the Law of God good,
so they could follow the Law of God and be made perfect in the Law!
This is what they have proclaimed in one way or another, in post after post.
So when you sin, grace is a little wink, wink, from Jesus.
The Law of God was in itself good in what God gave it to be;
it was a taskmaster to Israel of Old, and always pointed to the Cross of their Messiah;
so it was the Light to those in the Old Way in Adam, who looked forward by faith to their Messiah!
....it is impossible outside of faith to please God... and God was very pleased with the dead in Adam,
who were in 'Abraham's Bosom'!
Jesus was mutilated on the way to; and on the Cross!
He died fulfilling the Law and the Prophets in Himself!
That in God's Love and Grace I might be made perfect in that Law in Christ!
So there is a fine line being drawn here in the sand and that's good:
1) Did Jesus fulfill the Law and the Prophets in Himself alone which no one else could; before of after?
and in Christ Jesus, God's grace is truly sufficient, in the love of God and our neighbor;
through repentance and the power of the Holy Spirit, Who replaced the taskmaster;
in the community of the Church of the New Covenant in Christ Jesus?
2)Did Jesus fulfill the Law and the Prophets outside of Himself and make the Law good, in itself?
so others could likewise in themselves go forth and be made perfect by the Law of God, like Jesus?
Is the Law of God NOW no longer a taskmaster,
but something through the Blood of Jesus that you can now abide in,
showing others you have no sin, in yourself?
I don't see no middle ground here!
Just some of my thoughts
Showing how the doctrines of grace,
are virtually the same between the god makers and the Dispensationalist, Judaisers!
Who believe Jesus made the Law of God good,
so they could follow the Law of God and be made perfect in the Law!
This is what they have proclaimed in one way or another, in post after post.
So when you sin, grace is a little wink, wink, from Jesus.
The Law of God was in itself good in what God gave it to be;
it was a taskmaster to Israel of Old, and always pointed to the Cross of their Messiah;
so it was the Light to those in the Old Way in Adam, who looked forward by faith to their Messiah!
....it is impossible outside of faith to please God... and God was very pleased with the dead in Adam,
who were in 'Abraham's Bosom'!
Jesus was mutilated on the way to; and on the Cross!
He died fulfilling the Law and the Prophets in Himself!
That in God's Love and Grace I might be made perfect in that Law in Christ!
So there is a fine line being drawn here in the sand and that's good:
1) Did Jesus fulfill the Law and the Prophets in Himself alone which no one else could; before of after?
and in Christ Jesus, God's grace is truly sufficient, in the love of God and our neighbor;
through repentance and the power of the Holy Spirit, Who replaced the taskmaster;
in the community of the Church of the New Covenant in Christ Jesus?
2)Did Jesus fulfill the Law and the Prophets outside of Himself and make the Law good, in itself?
so others could likewise in themselves go forth and be made perfect by the Law of God, like Jesus?
Is the Law of God NOW no longer a taskmaster,
but something through the Blood of Jesus that you can now abide in,
showing others you have no sin, in yourself?
I don't see no middle ground here!
Just some of my thoughts
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D
I enjoy studying aberrant christian sects. Grace doesn't make any sense to many people. Even the atheists do not grasp it as they ask how Hitler could go to heaven if he asked for forgiveness on his death bed? Even on an emotional level grace can be difficult if one is racked with guilt. I knew a Christian lady who tearfully decided to have an abortion. After her guilt was unbelievably high. She cried in a locked bathroom for hours, the entire time asking God to forgive her. Someone picked her up off the floor and brought her to bed. The next morning she remembered she had locked the door and concluded an angel brought her to bed. The guilt still was strong and she decided to go to a Catholic Priest, even though she was a protestant and see if he would have confession with her. He did but it took a long time to feel normal.
Grace is a free gift of incredible value.
Grace is a free gift of incredible value.