Attack of the Judaizers

[Hizikyah]

It was laughable at first, then we all became increasingly annoyed with stopping at every single floor. I don't recall the floor we were working on but is was around the 6th floor. Now if one had to walk up 6 stories worth of stairs, I would call that work but light pressure on a plastic button is less work than blowing you nose. Yet they rode in the elevator.

I heard one Jewish man say he needed to get home before sunrise or he would have to walk. I am sure Jesus would disagree with that kind of foolishness, even before He died.

I understand how you feel, since I have studied the Talmud this nonesense and confusion IS RAMPANT, like to the 100th degree. and I have only studied it a bit.

This is a tool of satan to take the true intent out of the Law of Yahweh and turn it into a cold, materialistic excuse for foolishness and even making loopholes in it for justified transgression.

The pharisee took

Deuteronomy 6:8, "And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes."

Which means to have Yahweh;s Law in your mind and in your actions.

but the Phariseees cut the Law scroll up, put it in a box, and literally tied it to their forehead and hand. While they broke every Law in their actions.

This is the EXACT kind of thing Messiah sternly rebuked them for.

Mark 7:8 "For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men! 9 Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!"

 

[MrsRoseTreasure]

I worked at Ceders Sinai Hospital which has many Jewish patrons. On sabbath, all the elevators stop at each floor, one by one, whether or not you Jewish. Seriously, is pushing a button work? Tying your shoes is more work. I thought that was so stupid. I bet if Jesus took one of those elevators He would shake His head back and forth in total disgust.

You're not talking about Yahweh's law, written in the Bible, you are talking about man's law. If you don't know the difference, some time in study might be helpful.

 

[danschance]

You're not talking about Yahweh's law, written in the Bible, you are talking about man's law. If you don't know the difference, some time in study might be helpful.

First off I never said it was Yahweh's law. You did. I never said it was any kind of law. So your very unfriendly insults have nothing to do with me at all, but they sure tell me something about you. I doubt you will apologize but that is OK as I forgive you and hope you will do better next time.

By the way, I do know the difference between "man's law" and God's law but thanks for mentioning it.

 

[danschance]

I understand how you feel, since I have studied the Talmud this nonesense and confusion IS RAMPANT, like to the 100th degree. and I have only studied it a bit.

This is a tool of satan to take the true intent out of the Law of Yahweh and turn it into a cold, materialistic excuse for foolishness and even making loopholes in it for justified transgression.

The pharisee took

Deuteronomy 6:8, "And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes."

Which means to have Yahweh;s Law in your mind and in your actions.

but the Phariseees cut the Law scroll up, put it in a box, and literally tied it to their forehead and hand. While they broke every Law in their actions.

This is the EXACT kind of thing Messiah sternly rebuked them for.

Mark 7:8 "For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men! 9 Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!"

Yep, I doubt Jesus would be pleased by that.

 

[john832]

Uh, would you care to expound on what Laws are to be written on our hearts? The scripture plainly says, but I would be interested in hearin gyour ideas.

The commands of Christ (Mt 22:37-39; 1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2) would cover it.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Now with this passage in mind, what about Exodus 20? Or did Christ just simply say, "My bad, try these ones for a while, if they don't work, I'll come up with some different ones."?

This has no bearing on Mt 22:37-40.

So the fact that Jesus Christ spoke the Ten Commandments and then said to the rich young ruler...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And now the young man says which ones?

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So Christ Himself shows which Commands, the Ten Commandments and you say it has no bearing?

I understand completely. You have dismissed streaightforward scripture because it does not fit inot your human reasoning.

Paul even shows us that the two Great Commands are a summarization of the Ten Commandments, the NKJV is nice and clear here...

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," "YOU SHALL NOT MURDER," "YOU SHALL NOT STEAL," "YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS," "YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

A summary of something is the overview of the details. The two Great Commands are the overview of hte Ten Commandments. Plain and simple except to one who is hostile to the Law of God. The NIV explains this nicely...

Rom 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so

The NLT has this...

For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will.

And the ESV has this...

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

 

[john832]

The Mormons say"Grace after all I can do." from the book of Mormon.

However, that contradicts Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And not of our our doing. It is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so no one may boast." Grace is not a fill in our gaps. Grace through faith (not grace plus works)is the free gift by which all go to Heaven. Yet grace for you is simply a free pass after you think you have sinned.

No, I understand the magnitude of sin and the fact that each time I fall short (perhaps you don't) it requires the death of Christ and His shed blood to forgive that. That is in no way a free pass.

The free pass is that some believe the Law is done away and they do not sin, therefore they are not responsible for the death of Christ.

 

[Brother_Don]

is nutters a friendly insult? i keep seeing certain people being called nutters, but then i see the same person claiming to be the victim.

 

[Brother_Don]

i mean i see the one doing the name calling, acting like the victim.

 

[john832]

Oddly enough, I agree with this post!

Well, what I must acknowledge is that (now hear me out)

while in justification our guilt is remitted, "wiped away,"
because our sin has been forgiven through faith alone,

Not exactly through faith alone, it is forgiven by the shed blood of Jesus Christ...

Heb 9:22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU DID NOT DESIRE, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME.
Heb 10:6 IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAD NO PLEASURE.
Heb 10:7 THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME— IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME— TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, BURNT OFFERINGS, AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DID NOT DESIRE, NOR HAD PLEASURE IN THEM" (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And the faith that brought about forgiveness is not ours...

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Even it is a gift from God.

we are not thereby made holy, we are only made guiltless,
and adopted into the family of God (no small change).

And this I agree with, no comment.

But it is after we are adopted into God's family by justification that we begin to take on
the family characteristic of holiness, through the obedience of faith; i.e., sanctification.

I agree with this. What I believe here is the Law describes the characteristics of holiness. The obedience through faith is obedience to the Law. Doing what God says to do, when He says to do it even when I would rather do something else.

Remember, salvation is by the forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77) through faith alone, not by holiness.
Holiness follows forgiveness of sin, through the obedience of faith, by the power of grace.

I would disagree somewhat here in that Paul plainly says we are saved not by faith, but by Christ's life...

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

I kinda' think that is what you are driving at--big change at rebirth,
but you think the change must mean sanctification.

The word sanctification means "set apart". That actually occurs at conversion. We are set apart by receiving the Holy Spirit...

2Co 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

No, the big change is forgiveness of sin, guiltlessness, and adoption into the family of God.
Holiness then follows, through the obedience of faith, as a member of the family.

Think about it. . .

And I agree with this. Seems the only material difference we have is obedience to what?

 

[john832]

I understand how you feel, since I have studied the Talmud this nonesense and confusion IS RAMPANT, like to the 100th degree. and I have only studied it a bit.

This is a tool of satan to take the true intent out of the Law of Yahweh and turn it into a cold, materialistic excuse for foolishness and even making loopholes in it for justified transgression.

The pharisee took

Deuteronomy 6:8, "And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes."

Which means to have Yahweh;s Law in your mind and in your actions.

but the Phariseees cut the Law scroll up, put it in a box, and literally tied it to their forehead and hand. While they broke every Law in their actions.

This is the EXACT kind of thing Messiah sternly rebuked them for.

Mark 7:8 "For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men! 9 Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!"

They did not understand the Law. They did not have the heart to.

Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

So when God told them to make tassles and put them on the corners of their garments...

Num 15:38 "Speak to the children of Israel: Tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue thread in the tassels of the corners.
Num 15:39 And you shall have the tassel, that you may look upon it and remember all the commandments of the LORD and do them, and that you may not follow the harlotry to which your own heart and your own eyes are inclined,

it was a foreshadow of something they could not understand...

Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

The tassels were a foreshadow of the Holy Spirit to guide one. Type and anti-type.

 

[john832]

First off I never said it was Yahweh's law. You did. I never said it was any kind of law. So your very unfriendly insults have nothing to do with me at all, but they sure tell me something about you. I doubt you will apologize but that is OK as I forgive you and hope you will do better next time.

By the way, I do know the difference between "man's law" and God's law but thanks for mentioning it.

You say you do, yet you call the Ten Commandments the Mosaic Law.

 

[danschance]

You say you do, yet you call the Ten Commandments the Mosaic Law.

I say I do what?

The 10 commandments are a part of the Mosaic law. Now we are under the law of Christ which is a moral l
aw towards God and man. I have stated this many times.

 

[Elin]

---

Oddly enough, I agree with this post!

That's a good thing, right?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Well, what I must acknowledge is that (now hear me out)

while in justification our guilt is remitted, "wiped away,"
because our sin has been forgiven through faith alone,

Not exactly through faith alone, it is forgiven by the shed blood of Jesus Christ...

And the faith that brought about forgiveness is not ours...

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Even it is a gift from God.

Agreed. . .it is by faith in the shed blood of Christ (Ro 3:25) that we are forgiven.
I kinda' assumed that "faith" meant "faith in Christ and his work on the cross."

And "Amen!" to faith is a gift.

we are not thereby made holy, we are only made guiltless,
and adopted into the family of God (no small change).

But it is after we are adopted into God's family by justification that we begin to take on
the family characteristic of holiness, through the obedience of faith; i.e., sanctification.

I agree with this. What I believe here is the Law describes the characteristics of holiness. The obedience through faith is obedience to the Law. Doing what God says to do, when He says to do it even when I would rather do something else.

In the NT, it is rather clear that the law is:

1) the law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2) given in Mt 22:37-39,
which fulfills (performs) the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 138, 9, 10, Gal 5:6), and

2) and the NT commands, of which there are a plethora.

There really should be no disagreement among NT believers on this clear NT teaching,
which is the revelation spoken by the Son in the last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers.

Remember, salvation is by the forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77) through faith alone, not by holiness.
Holiness follows forgiveness of sin, through the obedience of faith, by the power of grace.

I would disagree somewhat here in that Paul plainly says we are saved not by faith, but by Christ's life...

Surely you are not denying Eph 2:8-9 that we are saved by faith, not by works,
lest anyone should boast,
but have just phrased it poorly.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Is that his former earthly life, or his present heavenly life?

The ministries of the two are quite different.

In his earthly life, he procured forgiveness of sin (salvation) by his atoning death.
In his heavenly life, he applies the benefits he procured in his earthly life by atonement.

Note the future tense of the "shall be" regarding his life.

It is his heavenly life that actually saves, through application of his atonement
to those who believe in him.

I kinda' think that is what you are driving at--big change at rebirth,
but you think the change must mean sanctification.

The word sanctification means "set apart". That actually occurs at conversion. We are set apart by receiving the Holy Spirit...

2Co 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.[/quote]
< Software here is messed up. >

Yes, sanctification/holy means "to set apart. . .from sin, and to God."

That is our position in sanctification, just as our position in justification is "guiltless
right standing (position) before God."

But our position in sanctification is to result in our actual sanctification
through the practice of the obedience of faith,
just as our position in justification is to result in the same.

No, the big change is forgiveness of sin, guiltlessness, and adoption into the family of God.
Holiness then follows, through the obedience of faith, as a member of the family.

And I agree with this. Seems the only material difference we have is obedience to what?

Well, that might require a little looking into.

The NT revelation given by Jesus to the apostles was not complete because his work on which
the revelation depended was not completed and, therefore, could not have been understood sufficiently.

However, the revelation given by Jesus to Paul, anywhere from 8 to 14 years later,
is complete because Jesus' work on which it depended was complete.

So the incomplete revelation given to the apostles must be understood
in the light of the latter and complete revelation given to Paul.

And therein is where it is clearly revealed that in the NT we are to obey the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39)
and the plethora of NT commands.

And since the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39) fulfills (performs) the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13;8, 9, 10, Gal 5:6),
there is no Biblical basis for preferring the law over Christ's law.

Think about it. . .

 

[just-me]

Are the Judaizers attacking Christians, or are the Christians attacking Judaizers? Could it be that all who contribute to this thread are believers in Christ Jesus? This thread was started by a Christian, but for months I haven't seen a true Judaizer in the bunch. A true Judaizer doesn't believe Jesus Christ is the true Messiah, they bypass Christ because they are more interested in being justified by works instead of faith. Are the Christians attacking people who they assume are Judaizers? I think so. That doesn't say much for being Christ like. I exhort Christians to stop writing on this thread, and let the attacked begin by the Judaizers as this thread indicates. Then we will know who the true judaizers really are instead of assumptions that cause arguments. I say as before, all arguing defines as division, and there should be no division in the family of God. The very word "attack" causes one to equate it with an enemy. Who's the enemy?

 

[Elin]

Love is found in obedience to God's Law.

That's not what the NT states.

Love fulfills the law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10; Mt 22:40; Gal 5:6).

In the NT, love is the cause of obedience, not the result of (found in) obedience.

OK, I guess you haven't read all of it. For your elightenment, enjoy...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Thanks, and for your grammatical enlightenment. . .

In the grammatical construction of neither is love the result of obedience,

in the grammatical construction of both love is the cause of obedience.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

This has no bearing on Mt 22:37-40.

2Pe 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

This likewise has no bearing on Mt 22:37-40.

So the fact that Jesus Christ spoke the Ten Commandments and then said to the rich young ruler...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And now the young man says which ones?

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So Christ Himself shows which Commands, the Ten Commandments and you say it has no bearing?

John, what part of Mt 22:37-40 do you not understand. . .or are you just being obdurate?

Your setting the word of God against itself in Mt 19:17-19 and Mt 22:37-40 shows you do not understand the word of God, for it does not contradict itself.

I understand completely. You have dismissed streaightforward scripture because it does not fit inot your human reasoning.

No, John, you do not, which is proven in your setting the word of God against itself.

And as long as you continue to do so to support your false theology, you will not understand.

 

[Elin]

Are the Judaizers attacking Christians, or are the Christians attacking Judaizers? Could it be that all who contribute to this thread are believers in Christ Jesus? This thread was started by a Christian, but for months I haven't seen a true Judaizer in the bunch. A true Judaizer doesn't believe Jesus Christ is the true Messiah, they bypass Christ because they are more interested in being justified by works instead of faith. Are the Christians attacking people who they assume are Judaizers? I think so. That doesn't say much for being Christ like. I exhort Christians to stop writing on this thread, and let the attacked begin by the Judaizers as this thread indicates. Then we will know who the true judaizers really are instead of assumptions that cause arguments. I say as before, all arguing defines as division, and there should be no division in the family of God. The very word "attack" causes one to equate it with an enemy. Who's the enemy?

"Judaize" is Paul's word (Gal 2:14), and that is not what it means.

 

[john832]

I say I do what?

The 10 commandments are a part of the Mosaic law. Now we are under the law of Christ which is a moral l
aw towards God and man. I have stated this many times.

You do not understand that it was Christ who spoke the Ten Commandments? Do you understand that He said to the rich young ruler...

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

And then proceeds to show that the Commandments He is talking about are the Ten Commandments.

Do you understand that teh Law Paul talked about is the Ten Commandments...

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," "YOU SHALL NOT MURDER," "YOU SHALL NOT STEAL," "YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS," "YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Do you understand who gave the Law to Moses? That was Jesus Christ speaking. Moses didn't make the Law up, he simply transcribed what He heard Christ tell him.

So when you say the Law of Christ, what do you think? Chirst gave the Law to Moses and then realized He had made a colossal mistake? Do you think He came as a human to undo all that He had done? If Christ is anything, He is consistent.

 

[john832]

Agreed. . .it is by faith in the shed blood of Christ (Ro 3:25) that we are forgiven.
I kinda' assumed that "faith" meant "faith in Christ and his work on the cross."

And "Amen!" to faith is a gift.


In the NT, it is rather clear that the law is:

1) the law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2) given in Mt 22:37-39,
which fulfills (performs) the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 138, 9, 10, Gal 5:6), and

2) and the NT commands, of which there are a plethora.

There really should be no disagreement among NT believers on this clear NT teaching,
which is the revelation spoken by the Son in the last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers.


Surely you are not denying Eph 2:8-9 that we are saved by faith, not by works,
lest anyone should boast,
but have just phrased it poorly.


Is that his former earthly life, or his present heavenly life?

The ministries of the two are quite different.

In his earthly life, he procured forgiveness of sin (salvation) by his atoning death.
In his heavenly life, he applies the benefits he procured in his earthly life by atonement.

Note the future tense of the "shall be" regarding his life.

It is his heavenly life that actually saves, through application of his atonement
to those who believe in him.

The word sanctification means "set apart". That actually occurs at conversion. We are set apart by receiving the Holy Spirit...

2Co 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.[/quote]
< Software here is messed up. >

Yes, sanctification/holy means "to set apart. . .from sin, and to God."

That is our position in sanctification, just as our position in justification is "guiltless
right standing (position) before God."

But our position in sanctification is to result in our actual sanctification
through the practice of the obedience of faith,
just as our position in justification is to result in the same.


Well, that might require a little looking into.

The NT revelation given by Jesus to the apostles was not complete because his work on which
the revelation depended was not completed and, therefore, could not have been understood sufficiently.

However, the revelation given by Jesus to Paul, anywhere from 8 to 14 years later,
is complete because Jesus' work on which it depended was complete.

So the incomplete revelation given to the apostles must be understood
in the light of the latter and complete revelation given to Paul.

And therein is where it is clearly revealed that in the NT we are to obey the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39)
and the plethora of NT commands.

And since the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39) fulfills (performs) the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13;8, 9, 10, Gal 5:6),
there is no Biblical basis for preferring the law over Christ's law.

Think about it. . .

To answer the last comment without editing everything, the Law of hte Old Testament was given by Christ it is His Law. The Two Great Commands are the summation of the Ten Commands. They are one and the same.

 

[john832]

John, what part of Mt 22:37-40 do you not understand. . .or are you just being obdurate?

Your setting the word of God against itself in Mt 19:17-19 and Mt 22:37-40 shows you do not understand the word of God, for it does not contradict itself.


No, John, you do not, which is proven in your setting the word of God against itself.

And as long as you continue to do so to support your false theology, you will not understand.

You continually accuse me of setting the Word of God against itself, yet I believe that the O.T. and the N.T. are in harmony. If I am setting the Word of God against itself, why am I the one who keeps saying that the Law given by Christ in the Old Testament is the same as the Law Christ gave in the New Testament and you are the one who says that one cancels out the other?

 

[john832]

I can type about 85 words a minute with 37 errors. LOL.