Attack of the Judaizers

[Grandpa]

You do not understand that it was Christ who spoke the Ten Commandments? Do you understand that He said to the rich young ruler...

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

And then proceeds to show that the Commandments He is talking about are the Ten Commandments.

Do you understand that teh Law Paul talked about is the Ten Commandments...

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," "YOU SHALL NOT MURDER," "YOU SHALL NOT STEAL," "YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS," "YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Do you understand who gave the Law to Moses? That was Jesus Christ speaking. Moses didn't make the Law up, he simply transcribed what He heard Christ tell him.

So when you say the Law of Christ, what do you think? Chirst gave the Law to Moses and then realized He had made a colossal mistake? Do you think He came as a human to undo all that He had done? If Christ is anything, He is consistent.

And then Christ magnified that Law in Matthew 5 and tells you what the Law has always said.

Be perfect like your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

Its a lot of work trying to be perfect Like our Father in Heaven is Perfect.

Then Christ says come to me and I will give you rest.

The law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. But after we have come to Christ we are no longer under the schoolmaster. After we have come to Christ we have been given rest. Right? That's what Christ says "I will give you rest". Do you believe Him??

 

[jahsoul]

Are the Judaizers attacking Christians, or are the Christians attacking Judaizers? Could it be that all who contribute to this thread are believers in Christ Jesus? This thread was started by a Christian, but for months I haven't seen a true Judaizer in the bunch. A true Judaizer doesn't believe Jesus Christ is the true Messiah, they bypass Christ because they are more interested in being justified by works instead of faith. Are the Christians attacking people who they assume are Judaizers? I think so. That doesn't say much for being Christ like. I exhort Christians to stop writing on this thread, and let the attacked begin by the Judaizers as this thread indicates. Then we will know who the true judaizers really are instead of assumptions that cause arguments. I say as before, all arguing defines as division, and there should be no division in the family of God. The very word "attack" causes one to equate it with an enemy. Who's the enemy?

Actually, like Elin stated, you definition is wrong. Judaizer was used in Galatians and a clear example is in Acts 15.

 

[just-me]

"Judaize" is Paul's word (Gal 2:14), and that is not what it means.

I understand this, but what I see here is people compelling each other to believe their way. I see and "attack" (according to the OP) from people, that have put that term into action as an accusation. Are there some hear advocating a different doctrine than that of salvation, and that salvation comes through works that are necessary first before a complete trust in Christ Jesus? That is the true meaning of a Judaizer. I think that some people are labeled by others for simply esteeming the Mosaic law as useful and spiritual to them, even though they clearly realize that the performance of the physical statutes of the don't make anyone saved better than others. I see, however, a problem with those who preach that it is a thing of the past, and not for today.

Matthew 4:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Deuteronomy 8:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

The law is food for the Christian.

3551. nomos nom'-os from a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specially, (of Moses (including the volume); also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle):--law.

 

[just-me]

Actually, like Elin stated, you definition is wrong. Judaizer was used in Galatians and a clear example is in Acts 15.

I miss worded it I suppose. I guess I should have asked if some Christians are trying to convert other Christians to be Christians. Are they? I asked three questions and none of them was asking about what a Judaizer was because I really don't care about the label, and care about the motives.

 

[john832]

And then Christ magnified that Law in Matthew 5 and tells you what the Law has always said.

Be perfect like your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

Its a lot of work trying to be perfect Like our Father in Heaven is Perfect.

Then Christ says come to me and I will give you rest.

The law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. But after we have come to Christ we are no longer under the schoolmaster. After we have come to Christ we have been given rest. Right? That's what Christ says "I will give you rest". Do you believe Him??

So help me out here, Christ magnified the Law so that means He did away with it? When I use a magnifying glass things get bigger, they do not disappear. Perhaps I am using it incorrectly, things don't disappear for me.

So, You ask me if I believe Him? Yes I believe Him, how about you?

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

Do you believe Paul?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

 

[Grandpa]

Actually, like Elin stated, you definition is wrong. Judaizer was used in Galatians and a clear example is in Acts 15.

Its important to point out the truth of the matter. Just like Paul did.

Otherwise that little bit of leaven will leaven the whole lump.

 

[Grandpa]

So help me out here, Christ magnified the Law so that means He did away with it? When I use a magnifying glass things get bigger, they do not disappear. Perhaps I am using it incorrectly, things don't disappear for me.

So, You ask me if I believe Him? Yes I believe Him, how about you?

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

Do you believe Paul?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Yes. Christ made the law bigger. So you could truly see what it is saying.

Be perfect like your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

All of your work at the law falls short. No matter how hard you work.

So the Lord says come to Him and He will give you rest. He gives us rest not because of all of our good works and our awesome obedience. He gives us rest because of how much He cares for us. This is the love of God. There is no greater love than a man laying His Life down for His Friends.

In order to understand Luke 16 and Romans 3 you need to understand the Rest that Christ gives us. How can we possibly rest from this moral law? Won't we all just go sin like crazy if we aren't under the law? That's what judaizers always imply.

No. The rest that Christ gives is not a rest from Righteousness. It is a rest from working at the law. He gives us His Holy Spirit and grows the fruit of the Holy Spirit inside of us. This doesn't occur by an act of your will or by your work. Only By the the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 5:22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[john832]

Its important to point out the truth of the matter. Just like Paul did.

Otherwise that little bit of leaven will leaven the whole lump.

And now you are using a refernce that tells us to keep the Days of Unleavened Bread. Good one...

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Pretty sure he isn't referring to Ishtar here.

 

[john832]

Yes. Christ made the law bigger. So you could truly see what it is saying.

Be perfect like your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

Yep, except you skipped what He said...

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Says here that even calling your brother a fool breaks the sixth Commandment and is the murder. How does that do away with the sixth Commandment?

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Says here that lusting after a woman you are not married to is adultery. How does that do away with the seventh Commandment?

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

Now show me the scripture that says to love your neighbor and hate your enemy?

Lev 19:17 'You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.

It was a Pharisaical corruption of Lev 19:17.

And it just goes on and on. You are telling me that magnifying the Law is the diametric opposite of the things Jesus Christ said.

All of your work at the law falls short. No matter how hard you work.

So the Lord says come to Him and He will give you rest. He gives us rest not because of all of our good works and our awesome obedience. He gives us rest because of how much He cares for us. This is the love of God. There is no greater love than a man laying His Life down for His Friends.

So help me out here. What you are saying is that the rest He gives is not keeping the Law? In other words rest is committing adultery? OK, you go out and committ adultery and see how much rest that gives you...

Pro 5:3 For the lips of an immoral woman drip honey, And her mouth is smoother than oil;
Pro 5:4 But in the end she is bitter as wormwood, Sharp as a two-edged sword.
Pro 5:5 Her feet go down to death, Her steps lay hold of hell.
Pro 5:6 Lest you ponder her path of life— Her ways are unstable; You do not know them.
Pro 5:7 Therefore hear me now, my children, And do not depart from the words of my mouth.
Pro 5:8 Remove your way far from her, And do not go near the door of her house,
Pro 5:9 Lest you give your honor to others, And your years to the cruel one;
Pro 5:10 Lest aliens be filled with your wealth, And your labors go to the house of a foreigner;
Pro 5:11 And you mourn at last, When your flesh and your body are consumed,
Pro 5:12 And say: "How I have hated instruction, And my heart despised correction!
Pro 5:13 I have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, Nor inclined my ear to those who instructed me!
Pro 5:14 I was on the verge of total ruin, In the midst of the assembly and congregation."

Sound restful to you?

How about resting by thinking evil thoughts of your brother? Christ called that murder in your heart...

Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
Mat 5:26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

etc.

In order to understand Luke 16 and Romans 3 you need to understand the Rest that Christ gives us. How can we possibly rest from this moral law? Won't we all just go sin like crazy if we aren't under the law? That's what judaizers always imply.

If you aren't under the Law, you can't sin...

Rom 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So I guess if you are not under the Law, you can't sin. If you can't sin, why do you need a Savior?

No. The rest that Christ gives is not a rest from Righteousness. It is a rest from working at the law. He gives us His Holy Spirit and grows the fruit of the Holy Spirit inside of us. This doesn't occur by an act of your will or by your work. Only By the the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And this sounds real good except for the fact that Paul (and I put more stock in what he says than your human reasoning) says the exact opposite...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
Rom 7:16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Paul says this life is a struggle to overcome.

Galatians 5:22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And according to Paul that does not just happen any ole way...

2Ti 2:1 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:3 You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:4 No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.
2Ti 2:5 And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.

1Co 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
1Co 9:25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
1Co 9:26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

When you only read selected verses, you come to the wrong conclusion. Here is an example...

Mat 27:5 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Luk 10:37 And he said, "He who showed mercy on him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

Joh 13:27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly."

You are taking selected verses out of context to proof text what you want the scripture to say instead of what it really says.

 

[Hoffco]

The New Cov. make the moral law of God big; but throws out the rest of the law. Even Isaiah say God hated the selfish way some Jews worshiped and Jesus hated the Phrasees worship and personal lives. God got rid of the mixed group of the nation of Israel and went to the pure group of only the saved people in the CHURCH. Judaizers want to go back to the wicked ways of the lost in the nation of Israel, and think they are saved. We are called to be holy , but the old ritual of the old cov. never made anyone holy. Zacharizus and Elizabeth, Joseph and Mary, peter and james, etc., were holy persons under the O.T.but the scribes and pharisees were wicked. Judaizers make holiness to be an outward ritual, but they have no good heart to love and obey God morally. If we love God we will obey God's moral laws and do what rituals required by God for our age only. So, if we love God and our neighbors morally, we are Christians and not ungodly Judaizers. Love toall, Hoffco

 

[MrsRoseTreasure]

The New Cov. make the moral law of God big; but throws out the rest of the law. Even Isaiah say God hated the selfish way some Jews worshiped and Jesus hated the Phrasees worship and personal lives. God got rid of the mixed group of the nation of Israel and went to the pure group of only the saved people in the CHURCH. Judaizers want to go back to the wicked ways of the lost in the nation of Israel, and think they are saved. We are called to be holy , but the old ritual of the old cov. never made anyone holy. Zacharizus and Elizabeth, Joseph and Mary, peter and james, etc., were holy persons under the O.T.but the scribes and pharisees were wicked. Judaizers make holiness to be an outward ritual, but they have no good heart to love and obey God morally. If we love God we will obey God's moral laws and do what rituals required by God for our age only. So, if we love God and our neighbors morally, we are Christians and not ungodly Judaizers. Love toall, Hoffco

Lemme make sure I understand. You are saying that half of the Bible becomes null and void because Messiah became the Passover lamb? I'm just making sure. "Judaizers make holiness to be an outward ritual, but they have no good heart to love and obey God morally." How could you possibly judge what is in my heart, dude? You don't have any idea about my salvation, and you have no business saying that someone else is going to hell because you are right.

"So, if we love God and our neighbors morally, we are Christians and not ungodly Judaizers." Again, I am ungodly because I don't believe in the same thing that you do? Sadducees were people always trying to make a show out of how much holier they were than everybody else. Who does that sound like to you?

I don't know that my obedience to the Torah, as much as I can in this modern world, will automatically get me into the kingdom. I do know that there is ONE book, one Bible. By throwing away the OT you dispose of the words of Yahweh LITERALLY.

I don't know that by your stiff-necked refusal to budge, that you will not get into the kingdom. Someone has already been given the job of judge; someone who's sandals neither of us are fit to tie. You are not qualified to judge anyone else's salvation.

Yeshua said this about the law: "I did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it." What in that statement makes you think the law is void? Why are you only reading the parts of scripture that support your own lofty ideals? Is it so hard to admit that the next precept for you might be this very topic, or are you happy in your sanctimonious judgement of others?

How about just a little bit of logical thinking here. The Bible says many are called but few are chosen. If you are in the majority belief, are you the many or the few?


"Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers. But his delight is in the [Torah] of the LORD, and on his [Torah] he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither. Whatever he does prospers. (Psalms 1:1-3)"

 

[MrsRoseTreasure]

And then Christ magnified that Law in Matthew 5 and tells you what the Law has always said.

Be perfect like your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

Its a lot of work trying to be perfect Like our Father in Heaven is Perfect.

Then Christ says come to me and I will give you rest.

The law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. But after we have come to Christ we are no longer under the schoolmaster. After we have come to Christ we have been given rest. Right? That's what Christ says "I will give you rest". Do you believe Him??

[h=3]Matthew 5:18[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So, you're saying he contradicts himself in the same sermon. Got it.

 

[jahsoul]

Until what is fulfilled?

 

[Grandpa]

Yep, except you skipped what He said...

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Says here that even calling your brother a fool breaks the sixth Commandment and is the murder. How does that do away with the sixth Commandment?

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Says here that lusting after a woman you are not married to is adultery. How does that do away with the seventh Commandment?

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

Now show me the scripture that says to love your neighbor and hate your enemy?

Lev 19:17 'You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.

It was a Pharisaical corruption of Lev 19:17.

And it just goes on and on. You are telling me that magnifying the Law is the diametric opposite of the things Jesus Christ said..

Fulfill doesn't mean do away. What exactly fulfills the law? Love (romans 13)

What are the fruits of the Holy Spirit? Love... (galatians 5)

Who grows these fruit of the Holy Spirit? Your will, strength and work?

I didn't skip anything. I am showing the solution given to you by the Lord Jesus Christ.

So help me out here. What you are saying is that the rest He gives is not keeping the Law? In other words rest is committing adultery? OK, you go out and committ adultery and see how much rest that gives you...

The rest that Christ gives is not a rest from Righteousness. It is a rest from working at the law. He gives us His Holy Spirit and grows the fruit of the Holy Spirit inside of us. This doesn't occur by an act of your will or by your work. Only By the the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 5:22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Pro 5:3 For the lips of an immoral woman drip honey, And her mouth is smoother than oil;
Pro 5:4 But in the end she is bitter as wormwood, Sharp as a two-edged sword.
Pro 5:5 Her feet go down to death, Her steps lay hold of hell.
Pro 5:6 Lest you ponder her path of life— Her ways are unstable; You do not know them.
Pro 5:7 Therefore hear me now, my children, And do not depart from the words of my mouth.
Pro 5:8 Remove your way far from her, And do not go near the door of her house,
Pro 5:9 Lest you give your honor to others, And your years to the cruel one;
Pro 5:10 Lest aliens be filled with your wealth, And your labors go to the house of a foreigner;
Pro 5:11 And you mourn at last, When your flesh and your body are consumed,
Pro 5:12 And say: "How I have hated instruction, And my heart despised correction!
Pro 5:13 I have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, Nor inclined my ear to those who instructed me!
Pro 5:14 I was on the verge of total ruin, In the midst of the assembly and congregation."

Sound restful to you?

How about resting by thinking evil thoughts of your brother? Christ called that murder in your heart...

Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
Mat 5:26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

etc.

You are missing the whole point of the gospel. It is good news. You have a problem with sin but Christ does not.

If you aren't under the Law, you can't sin...

Rom 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So I guess if you are not under the Law, you can't sin. If you can't sin, why do you need a Savior?

I'm not under the law because Christ has blessed me. Not by anything I do or don't do but merely because I have come to Him by Faith. Just like He says to do.

And this sounds real good except for the fact that Paul (and I put more stock in what he says than your human reasoning) says the exact opposite...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
Rom 7:16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Paul says this life is a struggle to overcome.

I don't disagree with anything Paul says.

We are already overcomers, in Christ.

And according to Paul that does not just happen any ole way...

2Ti 2:1 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:3 You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:4 No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.
2Ti 2:5 And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.

1Co 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
1Co 9:25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
1Co 9:26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

When you only read selected verses, you come to the wrong conclusion. Here is an example...

Mat 27:5 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Luk 10:37 And he said, "He who showed mercy on him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

Joh 13:27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly."

You are taking selected verses out of context to proof text what you want the scripture to say instead of what it really says.

I can't expound the whole bible to you. That is not my job anyway. I can only point you to the Truth. If you don't recieve it then you don't.

 

[Hizikyah]

The rest that Christ gives is not a rest from Righteousness. It is a rest from working at the law. He gives us His Holy Spirit and grows the fruit of the Holy Spirit inside of us. This doesn't occur by an act of your will or by your work. Only By the the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 5:22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

If you are lead by the Spirit you will not do anything in opposition to the Law.

When you are driving as long as you go below the speed limit you will have no negative consequence (ticket) while yet having the benefit of being safe because you are driving the proper speed on a particular road.

The Spirit and the Law say the EXACT SAME THING.

this is the next verse:

Galatians 5:19, "For the works of the flesh are obvious, which are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness, Godworship, sorcery, hatred, contentions, evil jealousies, rage, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies; sects or factions of division, Envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I warn you beforehand, just as I did in times past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Every single one of these works of the flesh is forbidden in Yahweh's Law, aka in opposition to the Spirit and in opposition to the Law.

Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering; patience, kindness, righteousness, The Faith; Meekness; gentleness, humility, temperance; self-control--such things are not against any Law."

Every single one of the is promoted and in the Spirit of Yahweh's Law, after all it was the Spirit of Yahweh that gave His Law, how could they possibly be in opposition? Now do you understand why Shaul said?, "such things are not against any Law."

 

[danschance]

Are the Judaizers attacking Christians, or are the Christians attacking Judaizers? Could it be that all who contribute to this thread are believers in Christ Jesus? This thread was started by a Christian, but for months I haven't seen a true Judaizer in the bunch. A true Judaizer doesn't believe Jesus Christ is the true Messiah, they bypass Christ because they are more interested in being justified by works instead of faith. Are the Christians attacking people who they assume are Judaizers? I think so. That doesn't say much for being Christ like. I exhort Christians to stop writing on this thread, and let the attacked begin by the Judaizers as this thread indicates. Then we will know who the true judaizers really are instead of assumptions that cause arguments. I say as before, all arguing defines as division, and there should be no division in the family of God. The very word "attack" causes one to equate it with an enemy. Who's the enemy?

You ask some good questions. As Christians, no human is our enemy though Christ did say "love your enemy". Certainly humans can be our enemy in a sense but Paul said we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against all sorts of a spiritual enemies.

Here at CC there is a disproportionate amount of people posting that are "law keepers" (or what ever pc tern you wish). I personally believe that the law keepers are believing and teaching a different gospel that can cause people to loose their salvation as per Gal. 5:4. I started this thread, not to be offensive but to warn others of it's dangers.

More specifically, CC had a person in chat who claimed to be uniquely qualified to to teach others as he claimed to read and write Hebrew. He claimed to be a pastor yet admitted he had no church. He taught that the NT can not be trusted as it is corrupted, Hebrew is superior to Greek, we need to eat a kosher diet. He claimed the NT was originally written in Hebrew. He became enraged when he was questioned. Soon after his appearance at CC he began teaching other weaker Christians, including a new convert from Mormonism.

In the end he was expelled from CC along with most of his "students" because they were caught trying to recruit others from this site to go to their own site. The new convert from Mormonism lost all confidence in the NT and was 100% deceived by this man to her own spiritual peril. One of his students told me the NT can not be trusted because it was written in Greek. After this false teach was quietly banned along with several of his followers we had others join CC that believed and taught as he did. I and others saw this as a spiritual attack as they had a disproportionate amount here at CC and they remain a vocal minority starting many threads to support their cause.

Recently I started a thread defending the trinity and a couple of people have been posting on keeping the law. Are the law keepers the enemy? Certainly not! Many are decent folks who love God. I frankly believe they maybe in a spiritual movement that might, possibly by a trap of the enemy. Like the false teacher who left spiritually decimated victims in his wake, I fear for some here. I think at times this thread has been contentious and even adversarial. I seriously wonder if my time could of been better off spent in prayer.

 

[Hizikyah]

The gospel of Messiah or the gospel about Messiah?
​

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Yahchanan (John) 4:25-26, "The woman said to Him; I know that the Messiah comes, and when He comes, He will tell us all things. Yahshua said to her: I am He speaking to you."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

Yahchanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"

Mattithyah 19-17-21, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh. He then asked Yahshua; Which ones? Yahshua said: You shall not murder. You shall not ccommit adultery. You shall not dsteal. You shall not bear false testimony. Honor your efather and mother, and; You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to Him; All these things I have kept from my youth up; what do I yet lack? Yahshua said to him: If you want to come to the perfection of Yahweh, go and sell of what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and you will be walking in Yahweh's ways, and following Me."

Mattithyah 5:20-30, ""For I say to you: Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will certainly not enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh. You have heard that it was said by the people of ancient times: You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment; But I say to you: Whoever is angry with his brother will be in danger of the judgment! Again, anyone who says; Raca! insulting your brother, will be in danger of the Sanhedrin, but whoever says: Nabel! desiring them to fall away, will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna. Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you; Leave your gift there before the altar, and go first and be reconciled with your brother; then come and offer your gift. Settle a controversy with your accuser quickly, before he gets you into court; or your adversary may deliver you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be put into prison. Truly I say to you: You will never come out of there until you have paid the last penny. You have heard that it was said by the people of ancient times: You shall not commit adultery; But I say to you: Whoever looks on a woman with lust for her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart. So if your right eye causes you to offend; sin, gouge it out and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for the whole body to be cast into Gehenna. Or if your right hand causes you to offend, cut it off and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for the whole body to be cast into Gehenna."

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, in conformity with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Mark 13:22-23, "For false messiahs and false prophets will rise, and will produce signs and wonders to lead astray, if it were possible, even the elect. So be on your guard! Behold I have warned you of all things beforehand!"

Yahchanan (John) 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

Mattithyah 16:27, “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His Malakim; and then He will reward every man according to his works.”

Mattithyah 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

 

[danschance]

The apostle Paul may of won over many people by debate, but I doubt I have. Paul stood up at Mars Hill and debated he knew the "unknown God/god" and converted many to Christ, he was an amazing man. Even cloth that touched him could cast out demons and heal the sick, what an amazing man for Christ. If I could be a very small fraction of what Paul was, I might just turn CC upside down. Unfortunately, I have probably created more heat than light, as my dad, a pastor, might chide. Well, I hope I have created a photon of light. Well, at least no one can call me a pessimist, I hope. (insert winking emoticon)


In the mean time, I am going to collect navel lint or something of of equal importance. I might not post on this thread for awhile. Perhaps you can find something of equal importance

 

[Hoffco]

If we who are true Christians ,those who love and obey Jesus according to the New Testament and read and interpret the Old Testament in light of the N.T. can hang in here and try to convert the unsaved who keep pushing the old, fulfilled nullified laws of the O.T. . What would the Judaizers think of me if I keep saying Mic. 5:2, The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. Would you all, not say, I was a little out of touch with the history of God's salvation plan, Because that prophecy was fulfilled 2,000 yrs ago. RIGHT? RIGHT! So, I think of the foolish Judaizers, who say we must keep the O.T. sabbath ,(Sat.) when Paul(inspired by Jesus) said "don't let anyone judge you on a Sabbath day or foods or drink". (loose quote) You guys and gals are a little bit behind in God's program. You need to get up to speed and get with God's plan for this age, in respect to His salvation plan. Anyone on a national highway must be up to speed or get off, your a "road block"to us who are going the speed limit. You are throwing spikes on the road and blowing out the tires of us who are doing the Will of God for this age. I am not forgetting that it was a true Christian (Peter) who caused the gentiles to "judaize", act like Jews. Therefore , some of you "Judaizers" could be truly saved but messed up in you mind on what laws God wants us to obey for this age. I have some good friends in the 7th day Adventists who are really messed up on the sabbath and end time events; But, I consider them Christians, but they are Judaizers. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[just-me]

If we who are true Christians ,those who love and obey Jesus according to the New Testament and read and interpret the Old Testament in light of the N.T. can hang in here and try to convert the unsaved who keep pushing the old, fulfilled nullified laws of the O.T. . What would the Judaizers think of me if I keep saying Mic. 5:2, The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. Would you all, not say, I was a little out of touch with the history of God's salvation plan, Because that prophecy was fulfilled 2,000 yrs ago. RIGHT? RIGHT! So, I think of the foolish Judaizers, who say we must keep the O.T. sabbath ,(Sat.) when Paul(inspired by Jesus) said "don't let anyone judge you on a Sabbath day or foods or drink". (loose quote) You guys and gals are a little bit behind in God's program. You need to get up to speed and get with God's plan for this age, in respect to His salvation plan. Anyone on a national highway must be up to speed or get off, your a "road block"to us who are going the speed limit. You are throwing spikes on the road and blowing out the tires of us who are doing the Will of God for this age. I am not forgetting that it was a true Christian (Peter) who caused the gentiles to "judaize", act like Jews. Therefore , some of you "Judaizers" could be truly saved but messed up in you mind on what laws God wants us to obey for this age. I have some good friends in the 7th day Adventists who are really messed up on the sabbath and end time events; But, I consider them Christians, but they are Judaizers. Love to all, Hoffco

I wasn't going to write anything, but I see an attack. Blow the trumpet! Draw the swords, and take up the shields, but don't put on the shoes for they are the gospel of peace.

Ephesians 6:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;