Who Were The Jusaizers? Are You One? Do You Know Anybody That Is?

[KittenofMelchisedek]

Forgot to thank you for this post. It is sad that it's a game to some people, but it is, that's all. I will refrain from responding to robots, and pray for them and all their alter egos, and all their multiple personalities. Maybe some day their demons will be cast out.

I love you sister...from here on out, I'll refrain as well, and pray for all who are in captivity. Will you pray for my alter ego's too? =)

 

[phil112]

....................All of us now are in agreement now except Elin and a couple people who aren't posting, just watching us argue, so for their sake I guess we are at least reinforcing the whole idea which is always good....................................

Now why did my ears start burning when I read that?

 

[Karraster]

*hand over mouth*

Wow!! that was awesome!!!

 

[Karraster]

I love you sister...from here on out, I'll refrain as well, and pray for all who are in captivity. Will you pray for my alter ego's too? =)

Hey, you are tellin it like it is sister!!! We need more of you!!! Testimony like yours is what ignites revivals! we need a world wide revival, get back to the Gospel of our Savior. I think time is running out, and there are many who do not know it.

 

[Hoffco]

I am looking at the argument of Paul in Rom.7 & 8. As I compare the two chapters ,I understand: I was married to SIN, 2"14, Then Jesus 2:4, put my 1st husband, SIN, to death. So now I am married to Christ. My first husband was not the law, But, the " law of sin and death" 8:2 SIN. The law was to bring life, 2:10, it is holy, just, good, spiritual, 2:1,. but the law had no power to save me, it only condemned me, 2:13, because I was married to SIN, my husband SIN, 2:11, kept me from obeying the righteous law of God so I could not be saved by the good law. Because the good law was powerless to kill my husband SIN, it could not save me. Then God sent me a powerful husband, JESUS, 2:4 who killed my first husband SIN. Jesus killed my SIN on the cross, now I am married to a new husband , the loving one who died for me, He delivered me from my first husband, SIN, who was killing me. Does this fit Paul's argument? Love to all, Hoffco

 

[KittenofMelchisedek]

You guys ROCK!

Hi Phill...now how did I know you would catch that?

 

[just-us-2]

The quote from Titus that GregoryC gave on the last page, gives it really clear, I'll embolden for emphasis. All of us now are in agreement now except Elin and a couple people who aren't posting, just watching us argue, so for their sake I guess we are at least reinforcing the whole idea which is always good.

Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

So here again we have salvation by grace through faith alone.

THEN

Sanctification by the special workings of our Lord to purify us and redeem us, which we allow by DENYING UNGODLINESS
I am ungodly. Thereby do I deny myself. The more I die to self, the more of me Christ can make new.

I ate a couple bites of pork tonight because it was served to me and would have hurt my parents feelings and they wouldn't have understood, so for them I ate the pork. I am not separated from God by that, but is it still against his law? yup. Do I now turn all the more toward me Lord? yup.

Am I guilty? No.....because Christ died for me? Well that, and I am in no way minimizing that, but there's more to it.

By his death, I am free from the spiritual penalty and power of sin and death...but by his resurrection he was made our High priest of the order of Melchisedek, of which we, by accepting his yoke (it takes two to carry a cross, or plow a field) are priests with him, a never ending priesthood.

Priests who had temple duty on the Sabbath, were guiltless. Even the remnant is guiltless, as scripture says a search will be made for their transgressions, and none will be found. --note...transgressions still exist or we couldn't look for them or find any for others who are not part of the remnant.

If you wanna go ahead and say the following thing to me and pretend it isn't meant to be personally insulting...."oh so you wanna still be under the law her her her well Jesus isn't good enough for you duh" UMMMM HELLO???? It's like you're channeling the enemy, and I'm not wasting my time to go back and quote people who are being insulting, confounding the Christians for WHAT? For what GOOD PURPOSE could you possibly have other than your own pleasure, to use the SAME verses REPEATEDLY, to say the same thing, "oh just so you know here's this verse" which agrees with what we're saying, but then you throw in, "so you still wanna be under the law huh? Guess you don't know scripture huh?" It's a very immature mindset that looks for loop holes. I see this at work all the time when people look at the job description, "so how much of this do I actually have to DO?" "all of it" "yeah, but there's some things that aren't necessary right?" "no please follow all the protocols" "well, I don't think I should have to do this one, and why this? I'm just not doing it this is stupid" "please actually do your job" "well nobody's gonna die if I don't, right? I mean, when you work you must skip some of these things right? you can't possibly expect me to do all of this right?" "yes my example is that I do it all and I am going to expect you to do your job as written or go away, so now go and do whatever you're gonna do"

Jesus gave us the example, and he was the one who died, and he took the guilt from the ones who did it, and he works in us so we don't have to do anything alone. All he asked, was that we do our jobs. We are priests. If you wanna act like a teenager, you might find yourself out of a job, not saying damnation, just saying, don't obey and see how things go.

It's not enough for today's generation just to do wrong. They want us to tell them they are doing good all the while. I'm not doing it. Period.

So don't message me telling me I don't have to follow the law, the law is not for following, the law is for KNOWING GOD, and if you are a priest you wanna know your God. This will be to the scorn of those who say in the end, didn't we prophecy in your name? ALL THE PAGANS KNOW THEIR GODS AND DO WHAT THEY TELL THEM. Even the pagans look after their own family. Therefor a "christian" who WILL NOT OBEY his GOD is worse than a non-believer.

Both my husband and I thoroughly enjoyed this! VERY WELL SAID! And it makes me rethink posting on the forums - I get so sick of the foolishness and ridiculous arguing that I feel like I have better things to do with my time than waste it on people who have such a hardened heart that they refuse to hear when Yahweh wants them to learn something. I have posted lots of things and started several threads simply for edification and most of them either turn into junk or because I strongly advocate that we as Christians have certain responsibilities assigned by the God we claim to serve, they go nowhere. For instance, a sure-fire go-nowhere subject is "humility" - largely MIA these days. Thanks for posting!



May ADONAI bless you and keep you. May ADONAI make his face shine on you and show you his favor. May ADONAI lift up his face toward you and give you peace.

 

[Grandpa]

saved by Christ

sanctified by the working of the Spirit...the evidence thereof is the following of the Law, including loving God and neighbor


=)

The evidence is the fruit of the Spirit listed in Galatians 5.

The judaizer always ends up pointing to their carnal understanding of what they think their flesh should be working at. I don't understand how a person can say at the end of the day a christian is someone who follows the law by their flesh.

At the end of the day a christian is a person who abides in Christ and counts fully on His Work by faith. If Christ doesn't change us and keep changing us no amount of our work at the law is going to help us. So should we focus on abiding in Christ or working at the law? Having started in the Spirit are you perfected by the flesh???

 

[Elin]

The people or the law?

The people.

I'm funnin' here. . .with being neighbors in the new earth. . .okay?

 

[Elin]

And if there is no law then how would they loose their reward? What are they judged against?

Yes I know forgiven sinners there is no more condemnation.

The reward of the believer is based on the quality of his work (1Co 3:12-15),

but his salvation is not (1Co 3:15).

 

[just-me]

The evidence is the fruit of the Spirit listed in Galatians 5.

The judaizer always ends up pointing to their carnal understanding of what they think their flesh should be working at. I don't understand how a person can say at the end of the day a christian is someone who follows the law by their flesh.

At the end of the day a christian is a person who abides in Christ and counts fully on His Work by faith. If Christ doesn't change us and keep changing us no amount of our work at the law is going to help us. So should we focus on abiding in Christ or working at the law? Having started in the Spirit are you perfected by the flesh???

Get a load of the "Fruit of the Spirit." Just to compare.

Galatians 5:22-23 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The reason that there is no law against the “fruit of the Spirit” is because it is the law and the prophets. These nine attributes are defined as a single fruit.

Matthew 12:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

The disciples who walked directly with Jesus didn't have a full understanding immediately, and gaining understanding in order to walk in the truth was and is imperative.

John 16:12-13

12. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

As we continue in ALL of the word, and grow and mature, I believe that we are given more as we are able to bear it and to walk in it, and it's out with the old leaven, and in with the new. Was this fruit something endorsed in the Epistles only, or was it God’s will from the beginning? Here’s your answer.

Exodus 20:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Leviticus 19:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Deuteronomy 5:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

1 Kings 1:40 (KJV)
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And all the people came up after him, and the people piped with pipes, and rejoiced with great joy, so that the earth rent with the sound of them.

Isaiah 12:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.

Exodus 18:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.

Leviticus 3:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And if his offering for a sacrifice of peace offering unto the LORD be of the flock; male or female, he shall offer it without blemish.

Exodus 34:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

2 Samuel 22:36 (KJV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy gentleness hath made me great.

Faith is/was ordained as an Old Testament principle to be kept as a priority in the New Testament.

Habakkuk 2:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Romans 1:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Psalm 45:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.

Temperance is self-control as in “not to covet,” or “being drunk” “gluttonous” and so on. It is exhortation of the fruit of the spirit that I endorsed in the only negative, for covet is an attribute of the carnal, and the opposite is the attribute of the Lord’s Holy Spirit.

Deuteronomy 21:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

We would never dream of stoning our own children for being drunk, or rebellious today, but we must still recognize this spiritual aspect. Any loving parent would desire to destroy those actions before they destroy their children. That’s what Jesus has done. God’s love wants us to be separated from those transgressions that separate us from Him. Parents that truly love their children will have the same desire.

Isaiah 32:15-17 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.

When we study the Mosaic Law we should concentrate on the spiritual meanings, relating those ordinances to the fulfillment of all things through Christ. If the law is spiritual, as Paul said, then we should always be searching for the spiritual meaning. Some will be confrontational saying that Christians need to make a choice between Paul and Moses. They were both called to do God's will in the time sequence God had determined. Why fight about what part of the Word of God is negated when none of it is? If God wanted it to be invalid, He wouldn't have preserved it. If one is going to follow Paul instead of Moses, then they should quit endorsing the Law in the physical realm, rather than the spiritual, because they actually are contradicting the very teachings from the man that they say they are following.

It's the carnal mind that concentrates on carnal thoughts, convincing itself of a righteousness that can be found in less than 100% of God. This frame of mind actually believes in itself as being more righteous than the Pharisees because they have determined the Mosaic Law as invalid, extinct, and negated through Christ. There is a rhetorical question that we should ask ourselves. Does the strength of the law expose the weakness of the flesh, or does the strength of the salvation expose the weakness of the law? One cannot have it both ways.

Romans 8:3-7 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Hope you don't see this as carnal just because I related to the law and the prophets. May God bless you with all wisdom, and understanding.

 

[jahsoul]

Does this conversation tire anyone else?

I mean really, all of these pages aren't going to change anybodies mind. If you want to observe a version of the Sabbath, do so with a clear conscious, and in the same breath have the same mindset for those that don't. While I don't agree with the mentality that some who observe the Sabbath has (the whole lawless bit, even though some pick and choose what laws they follow, i.e. 10 commandments plus some food laws here and there) , I respect you enough to not question your reasons. (easy on things that has no bearing on salvation).

 

[Elin]

The quote from Titus that GregoryC gave on the last page, gives it really clear, I'll embolden for emphasis. All of us now are in agreement now except Elin and a couple people who aren't posting, just watching us argue, so for their sake I guess we are at least reinforcing the whole idea which is always good.

Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

So here again we have salvation by grace through faith alone.

Are you saying that I am not in agreement with salvation by grace alone?

THEN

Sanctification by the special workings of our Lord to purify us and redeem us,

We were redeemed (purchased, bought back from wrath/condemnation for sin, Ro 5:9)
when we were saved by faith alone, above.

which we allow by DENYING UNGODLINESS
I am ungodly. Thereby do I deny myself. The more I die to self, the more of me Christ can make new.

I ate a couple bites of pork tonight because it was served to me and would have hurt my parents feelings and they wouldn't have understood, so for them I ate the pork. I am not separated from God by that, but
is it still against his law? yup.

Only if you don't believe the NT.

You might find it helpful to know that the ceremonial laws of sacrifices, defilement, cleansing
and food laws no longer apply.

Mk 7:19 - "In saying this, Jesus declared all foods 'clean'."

Ro 14:20 - "all food is clean"

Ro 14:14 - "As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself"

Ro 14:17 - "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness,
peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

1Co 8:8 - "Food does not bring us near to God, we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do"

1Co 10:25 - "Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for
'The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it.' (Ps 24:1)"

1Tim 4:3-5 - "They. . . order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received
with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything God created is good,
and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated (sanctified)
by the word of God and prayer."

Do I now turn all the more toward me Lord? yup.

Am I guilty? No.....because Christ died for me? Well that, and I am in no way minimizing that, but there's more to it.

By his death, I am free from the spiritual penalty and power of sin and death...

Are you saying it is okay to sin because you are free from spiritual penalty?

but by his resurrection he was made our High priest of the order of Melchisedek, of which
we, by accepting his yoke (it takes two to carry a cross, or plow a field)
are priests with him, a never ending priesthood.

So what priestly function do we now perform as priests?

Priests who had temple duty on the Sabbath, were guiltless

They were guiltless of working on the Sabbath.

Even the remnant is guiltless, as scripture says a search will be made for their transgressions, and none will be found.

Just checking again. . .are you saying it is okay to sin because we won't be guilty?

the law is not for following, the law is for KNOWING GOD, and if you are a priest you wanna know your God. This will be to the scorn of those who say in the end, didn't we prophecy in your name? ALL THE PAGANS KNOW THEIR GODS AND DO WHAT THEY TELL THEM. Even the pagans look after their own family. Therefor
a "christian" who WILL NOT OBEY his GOD is worse than a non-believer.

This is confusing to me.

Could you help me understand how a law "not for following" is disobedience for those "who will not obey" (follow) it?

 

[just-us-2]

Does this conversation tire anyone else?

Isn't it nice that those who don't want to read what goes on here don't have to read it and can go read other things more to their own liking?

 

[just-me]

Does this conversation tire anyone else?

I mean really, all of these pages aren't going to change anybodies mind. If you want to observe a version of the Sabbath, do so with a clear conscious, and in the same breath have the same mindset for those that don't. While I don't agree with the mentality that some who observe the Sabbath has (the whole lawless bit, even though some pick and choose what laws they follow, i.e. 10 commandments plus some food laws here and there) , I respect you enough to not question your reasons. (easy on things that has no bearing on salvation).

I've been trying to tell people, here and there, for about a month now that these arguments are a vain exercise, and God is very displeased with the situation because there will be no reconciliation, and always division. That has been proven over and over, and those who contribute to, and start these types of threads for entertainment have said they are endeavoring to cause the Judaizers to repent from their wicked ways. Those of us who esteem the Mosaic law will always be the enemy to those that want things as was during the Constantine era. I will say, as I did before, if the Judaizers would stop defending themselves, everybody would see where the division really is, and where it starts. People have said these threads have enlightened them. They don't do a thing for me except cause frustration opposed to peace. What I have learned I have already stated.

 

[just-me]

Are you saying that I am not in agreement with salvation by grace alone?


We were redeemed (purchased, bought back from wrath/condemnation for sin, Ro 5:9)
when we were saved by faith alone, above.


Only if you don't believe the NT.

You might find it helpful to know that the ceremonial laws of sacrifices, defilement, cleansing
and food laws no longer apply.

Mk 7:19 - "In saying this, Jesus declared all foods 'clean'."

Ro 14:20 - "all food is clean"

Ro 14:14 - "As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself"

Ro 14:17 - "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness,
peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

1Co 8:8 - "Food does not bring us near to God, we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do"

1Co 10:25 - "Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for
'The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it.' (Ps 24:1)"

1Tim 4:3-5 - "They. . . order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received
with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything God created is good,
and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated (sanctified)
by the word of God and prayer."


Are you saying it is okay to sin because you are free from spiritual penalty?


So what priestly function do we now perform as priests?


They were guiltless of working on the Sabbath.

Just checking again. . .are you saying it is okay to sin because we won't be guilty?


This is confusing to me.

Could you help me understand how a law "not for following" is disobedience for those "who will not obey" (follow) it?

Confusion is not of God. Where is it coming from?

 

[Karraster]

Isn't it nice that those who don't want to read what goes on here don't have to read it and can go read other things more to their own liking?

lol, ironic isn't it? the very ones that would love to "lord" over us, are the ones who say God doesn't care if we follow His instruction. Looks like they would get a hint by their own nature, for we are made in the image of God. The Creator of the universe has made laws of nature and laws for man. How could a king rule a kingdom without any law? If in fact that king had no law, he would have no government, no order, and that would not be a very wise king, now would it?

Law is Love, for it regulates order, and protects us . Our Creator's Laws are good. What a glorious day it will be when we are completely free from man's law and suppression, and every man will know God's Law and obey Him.

This thread was to(hopefully) see the difference in God's law and man's law.

[h=1]2 Chronicles 16:9
[/h]For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to give strong support to those whose heart is blameless toward him. You have done foolishly in this, for from now on you will have wars."

 

[jahsoul]

Isn't it nice that those who don't want to read what goes on here don't have to read it and can go read other things more to their own liking?

With all due respect, I never said anything about wanting or not wanting to read this thread or any other, but at the end of this, all efforts are to waste if NOTHING comes from it., hence, using the wording that I did.

 

[Karraster]

I've been trying to tell people, here and there, for about a month now that these arguments are a vain exercise, and God is very displeased with the situation because there will be no reconciliation, and always division. That has been proven over and over, and those who contribute to, and start these types of threads for entertainment have said they are endeavoring to cause the Judaizers to repent from their wicked ways. Those of us who esteem the Mosaic law will always be the enemy to those that want things as was during the Constantine era. I will say, as I did before, if the Judaizers would stop defending themselves, everybody would see where the division really is, and where it starts. People have said these threads have enlightened them. They don't do a thing for me except cause frustration opposed to peace. What I have learned I have already stated.

I didn't know what a Judaizer was, but knew it was used to club people over the head who were simply advocating what Messiah taught. People who use that term should realize what the definition is, so I researched it to help people understand the difference in case they who used the term didn't know what it meant. And especially for those who felt intimidated or confused by being called that when all they were trying to do was follow God's Commands.

I am not a Judaizer! I don't know anybody that is! That was my point. I am not saying the Rabbinical Laws must be followed, nor that circumcision is needed, except of the heart like Paul said.

 

[jahsoul]

I don't get what Mosaic law has to do with Constantine but I agree on the division. If this has nothing to do with salvation, it rest on the conscious.