-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
All this you are stating is nothing more than conjecture and is one way that one can and does built erroneously, careful as to not go off into error(s) possible or possibilities do lead many times to error, and only truth from God sets one free, and not form another, Thanks, praying you are listening
Is not wisdom, Christ the Son and was there when God created all? I mean we see they are two yet one do we not?
And in Genesis:
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
And in Genesis:
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Of course it's referring to wisdom. Haven't you read the passage?
Proverbs 8:1-36 (ESV)
The Blessings of Wisdom
1 Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 On the heights beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand;
3 beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud:
4 "To you, O men, I call, and my cry is to the children of man.
5 O simple ones, learn prudence; O fools, learn sense.
6 Hear, for I will speak noble things, and from my lips will come what is right,
7 for my mouth will utter truth; wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are righteous; there is nothing twisted or crooked in them.
9 They are all straight to him who understands, and right to those who find knowledge.
10 Take my instruction instead of silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold,
11 forwisdom is better than jewels, and all that you may desire cannot compare with her.
12 "I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the LORD is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.
14 I have counsel and sound wisdom; I have insight; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;
16 by me princes rule, and nobles, all who govern justly.
17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.
18 Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, even fine gold, and my yield than choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness, in the paths of justice,
21 granting an inheritance to those who love me, and filling their treasuries.
22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the children of man.
32 "And now, O sons, listen to me: blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it.
34 Blessed is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the LORD,
36 but he who fails to find me injures himself; all who hate me love death."
Furthermore, Jesus was not created. He is the eternal God.
Proverbs 8:1-36 (ESV)
The Blessings of Wisdom
1 Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 On the heights beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand;
3 beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud:
4 "To you, O men, I call, and my cry is to the children of man.
5 O simple ones, learn prudence; O fools, learn sense.
6 Hear, for I will speak noble things, and from my lips will come what is right,
7 for my mouth will utter truth; wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are righteous; there is nothing twisted or crooked in them.
9 They are all straight to him who understands, and right to those who find knowledge.
10 Take my instruction instead of silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold,
11 forwisdom is better than jewels, and all that you may desire cannot compare with her.
12 "I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the LORD is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.
14 I have counsel and sound wisdom; I have insight; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;
16 by me princes rule, and nobles, all who govern justly.
17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.
18 Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, even fine gold, and my yield than choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness, in the paths of justice,
21 granting an inheritance to those who love me, and filling their treasuries.
22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the children of man.
32 "And now, O sons, listen to me: blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it.
34 Blessed is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the LORD,
36 but he who fails to find me injures himself; all who hate me love death."
Furthermore, Jesus was not created. He is the eternal God.
A
Using poor grammar, Nick1939 falsely asserts that Christians who understand the doctrine of the Trinity are modern day Pharisees when it's understood such Christians are clearly believers in God's grace while Oneness organizations are very legalistic.
There are hundreds of threads discussing the Trinity on Christianchat.com and every one of those questions has been discussed and answered in depth. There simply is no need for this thread, especially as it's constructed to malign genuine Christians a tenant of orthodox Christianity. You should be ashamed Nick.
There are hundreds of threads discussing the Trinity on Christianchat.com and every one of those questions has been discussed and answered in depth. There simply is no need for this thread, especially as it's constructed to malign genuine Christians a tenant of orthodox Christianity. You should be ashamed Nick.
Well said, thus, the trinity is a false idea.
the only questions left are 'why did Jesus take worship?' and things like that.
Well, my answer is 'why not?' Jesus was walking around without having ever sinned, being one with the father's will in this way, more than any other human. For people to revere him would be for people to revere his character, and to revere the will of God. Jesus 'gives' the worship to God.
More a case of the followers being a little bit ignorant, than of Jesus being God. Jesus never 'accepted' worship, he just received it.
They agree, the father and Jesus. But they are by no means the same.
The trinity is Tertullian's way of understanding God, more than 300 years after Jesus. It isn't mine though.
the only questions left are 'why did Jesus take worship?' and things like that.
Well, my answer is 'why not?' Jesus was walking around without having ever sinned, being one with the father's will in this way, more than any other human. For people to revere him would be for people to revere his character, and to revere the will of God. Jesus 'gives' the worship to God.
More a case of the followers being a little bit ignorant, than of Jesus being God. Jesus never 'accepted' worship, he just received it.
They agree, the father and Jesus. But they are by no means the same.
The trinity is Tertullian's way of understanding God, more than 300 years after Jesus. It isn't mine though.
Weren't verses 30, 32 & 34 referring to some sort of a "person"? Just asking. I have to emphasize "asking" to avoid any false accusation here 
per·son·i·fi·ca·tion
pərˌsänəfiˈkāSHən/
noun
noun: personification
1. the attribution of a personal nature or human characteristics to something nonhuman, or the representation of an abstract quality in human form.
3
Is there any trinitarian significance of the God names through Gen 1-4?
In Genesis 1-2:3 we see Elohim "God" (majestic plural); Gen 2:4 through Gen 3:23, we have Yehovah Elohim "Lord God", but with four distinct references to Elohim.
Gen 3:1-5, "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Then from Genesis 4 on we only have Yehovah "Lord",
Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the Lord.”
John 5:30-38,
I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
[h=3]The Fourfold Witness[/h]31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
John 14:9-11,
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
(v23) “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
John 15:26 through 16:15,
“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
16 “These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble. 2 They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do to you[d] because they have not known the Father nor Me. 4 But these things I have told you, that when the[e] time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.
And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.
[h=3]The Work of the Holy Spirit[/h]5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.[f]
In Genesis 1-2:3 we see Elohim "God" (majestic plural); Gen 2:4 through Gen 3:23, we have Yehovah Elohim "Lord God", but with four distinct references to Elohim.
Gen 3:1-5, "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Then from Genesis 4 on we only have Yehovah "Lord",
Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the Lord.”
John 5:30-38,
I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
[h=3]The Fourfold Witness[/h]31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
John 14:9-11,
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
(v23) “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
John 15:26 through 16:15,
“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
16 “These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble. 2 They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do to you[d] because they have not known the Father nor Me. 4 But these things I have told you, that when the[e] time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.
And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.
[h=3]The Work of the Holy Spirit[/h]5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.[f]
another point to ponder is the following facts...
1. Hebrew has singular, dual, plural-->three or more
2. Man made in God's image
3. God breathed into Adam the breath of (lives) as it is used in the plural sense (three or more)
4. As in Spiritual Life, Physical Life and Intellectual Life ------>yet one man as in -->Adam
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
One of us God said here in this verse, who are the "US"
One of us God said here in this verse, who are the "US"
T
That's all anyone does with the "us" in Genesis. Everyone knows it is Elohim, but we base who Elohim is off context. Contextual wise, God and the angels fits as Elohim here. God uses the angels for like EVERYTHING he does. To say it is a triune God is a conjecture as well because it never states it to be so.
So by chance are you thus saying when God created us, that Lucifer was there, seeing the light that God manifested on Adam and Eve, he was jealous and came back to deceive through the serpent and got them to eat of that tree, saying to himself and yes they will die and the light I had will be back on me.
Yet to Lucifer's dismay, God had Mercy on Adam and Eve, yet still death had to come, but before that they needed to learn by the sweat of their brow to turn back to only trust Father which Christ the Son came to do, redeem us. So today we are reconciled which means made right to Father through Son Christ, to have new life in the Spirit reckoning ourselves dead to the flesh daily since we are in unredeemed bodies?
Do you agree with this scenario?
Yet to Lucifer's dismay, God had Mercy on Adam and Eve, yet still death had to come, but before that they needed to learn by the sweat of their brow to turn back to only trust Father which Christ the Son came to do, redeem us. So today we are reconciled which means made right to Father through Son Christ, to have new life in the Spirit reckoning ourselves dead to the flesh daily since we are in unredeemed bodies?
Do you agree with this scenario?
Just like I said, haven't read what I posted. I am not a trinitarian and do not believe in a closed trinity. Furthermore, I have never said the angels could not have assissted, they do God's will as He declares to them...
Psa 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.
Psa 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.