How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

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World in John 3:16 ! 4


Now let's look again at another fact about them God So Loved Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, The same Love of God in Jn 3:16 !

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

Because of His Great Love that He so Loved them with Jn 3:16, He quickens them, gives them life out of the dead, Like Jesus did the dead Lazarus whom He Loved Jn 11:36, from this quickening they are born of the Spirit Jn 3:8

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The word born here is the greek word gennaō and means:

A.to engender, cause to arise, excite

These are words that mean the same as to quicken as in Eph 2:5

For instance, to excite means:


to arouse or stir up the emotions or feelings of: to excite a person to anger; actions that excited his father's wrath.

2.
to arouse or stir up (emotions or feelings): to excite jealousy or hatred.

3.
to cause; awaken: to excite interest or curiosity.

4.
to stir to action; provoke or stir up

The word arise means:

to come into being, action, or notice; originate; appear; spring ,to awaken; wake up

That's the results of the quickening by the Spirit, or being born of the Spirit, it enlivens dead sinners unto the Things and Interests of God and alvation and Spiritual things, and by this they are capacitated to become Believers in Christ by the fruit of Faith Gal 5:22.

So that's who the World is that is So Loved by God in Jn 3:16, its everyone who is Believing or shall be Believing as a result of God's Great Love for them Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ) 835
 
The God of the Christians who view people as having no free will and as One who just chooses whoever willy-nilly to be saved, is the God is a person who is lacking the ability to realize that God would not ask or command us to do something that He never gave us power and ability to do. Such as having a wedding garment, overcoming sin, and putting on the white raiment. The thought is atrocious and absurd.

If you do NOT have a wedding garment He will toss you into the outer darkness; if you do NOT overcome sin, He will blot you out of the Book of Life, and if you do NOT have on the white raiment, He will spue you out of His mouth.

What sort of a God would command you to do those things and then condemn you to hell for not doing them? It is really astonishing that some Christians have this awful view of God. But many are not much better who believe that God burns these same people forever and ever in Hell, when Jesus Himself said when you see Me you have seen the Father and that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth upon Him should not PERISH but have eternal life. He never said you would burn forever and ever in Hell.

It is very strange, really, that those who think Jesus is so "nice" also turn around and see His Father as some sort of a heartless Monster. They just all do that in varying degrees.

Matthew 22:11-13
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:16,18
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
 
I agree with you halfway. God is not arbitrary, He does choose us, but He irresistibly draws the willing. We need God's grace, but we also must respond in faith.

In Matt 22 there is a graphic recognition that the servant of God who doesn't clothe Himself properly will be contrained, put outside the joy of the wedding feast and experience remorse. This is not loss of justification/salvation, it's loss of reward.

In Rev. 3:5 the overcomer is clothed in white raiment and given acknowledgment and praise before the Father and angels. His name is not blotted out is an understatement figure of speech that the overcomer's salvation is forever. The denial of the name blotting is not proof that some will have their name blotted out. It's again a metaphor for reward, it's eternal security. One can't read this and say that some will have their name blotted out, the text never says this.

Rev. 3 being spewed out of God's mouth is a graphic illustration of lukewarm water. In that city there were both hot and cold springs, hot and cold water are great, you want to drink them, they are tasteful and useful. God is calling this church to be useful, tasty, rich, clothed, unashamed, able to see, worthy. God is calling them to work out their salvation, to be useful and fruitful, and then they won't be spewed out of His mouth. This isn't loss of salvation, it's not being useful, loss of rewards both now and in heaven.

Peace.
 
cfultz3 said:
Homie,

Remember what you told me. It was good advice. Speak towards the substance and not the darts......
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Thank you Cultz, and that is what we are is to help each other in growth to understand how deep is that Love God has and has shown for us, thank you

1 John 4:19 We love because he first loved us.
1 John 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
 
svedbygrace said:
World in John 3:16 ! 3


Another clue is given us as to why they are believing in Jn 3:16, its Jn 3:3,8

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

They are believing because they are born of the Spirit, for without the New Birth they could not believe; You see without this Spiritual Birth they are nothing but flesh Jn 3:6

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

And those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Believing on Christ pleases God Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So quite frankly those believing in Jn 3:16 had to be first born again of the Spirit !834
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Otherwise they would not be believing, that I agree upon, can't stand up without God. God is the only one able, and that be the Father of the Son, that did all the work for us believers, to set us free in him.
THanks
 
World in John 3:16 ! 5


Now if God so Loved all mankind without exception, the world in that sense, then it needs to be explained why would Jesus, the one God gave out of Love to the World Jn 3:16, why He refused to pray for all mankind without exception, and only prayed for those given to Him Per Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

This alo implies those not given to Christ by the Father, were not His ! And He goes on to Pray for those who shall believe on Him through the Word of the Apostles Jn 17:19-20

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

At best we can only say that Christ's Prayer is only for believers, or those who shall believe, which again limits Jn 3:16 to those believing as being the objects of His Love.

So clearly Jesus did not Love everyone in the World, but only His Own that had been given Him Jn 13:1

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

For He would not even pray for those He did not Love. He Loved and Prayed only for His Own, those the Father Gave Him, who are the Church Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

That's who will be those that will believe on Christ through their World, Those of His Body the Church Col 1:24

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

In Timothy its for the Elect's Sake 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things [afflictions] for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The Elect and the Church, and the Sheep are all the Same !836
 
homwardbound said:
Otherwise they would not be believing, that I agree upon, can't stand up without God. God is the only one able, and that be the Father of the Son, that did all the work for us believers, to set us free in him.
THanks
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So did he fail with the unbelievers ?
 
The False Teachings of Jn 3:16


The False Teachings of Jn 3:16 of arminians of all sorts, freewillers, they do willfully twist Jn 3:16 to mean that depraved and spiritually dead and enslaved to sin men have a freewill deceision to make, to either believe or not to believe in Jesus, its their choice; but again Jn 3:16 states no such nonsense, for its declaring a statement of fact, in that those believing is the end and result of God's Great Love to them in giving Christ up to die for them, htus producing the believing results of them. In other words, His Giving of Christ to them as a Sacrifice Offering is why they are now believing ! Salvation is 110% God's Freewill choice to bestow it upon whomever He is pleased, its all His Work by His Triune Perfections and Wisdom, its all according to His Sovereign Mercy, and it is not of man that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God who shows discriminating Mercy Rom 9:16

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

The freewillers and Arminians contradict God's Word and say that Salvation is of him that willeth with his own freewill !837
 
svedbygrace said:
The False Teachings of Jn 3:16


The False Teachings of Jn 3:16 of arminians of all sorts, freewillers, they do willfully twist Jn 3:16 to mean that depraved and spiritually dead and enslaved to sin men have a freewill deceision to make, to either believe or not to believe in Jesus, its their choice; but again Jn 3:16 states no such nonsense, for its declaring a statement of fact, in that those believing is the end and result of God's Great Love to them in giving Christ up to die for them, htus producing the believing results of them. In other words, His Giving of Christ to them as a Sacrifice Offering is why they are now believing ! Salvation is 110% God's Freewill choice to bestow it upon whomever He is pleased, its all His Work by His Triune Perfections and Wisdom, its all according to His Sovereign Mercy, and it is not of man that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God who shows discriminating Mercy Rom 9:16

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

The freewillers and Arminians contradict God's Word and say that Salvation is of him that willeth with his own freewill !837
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If God is at fault for one's death, then He is the cause of their sin in order to fulfill His, according to predestination, quota of pre-damning souls . If He is the cause of their sin, then His judgment would be a false act of pretentiousness. If His judgment is false, then (fill in the blank).

Tell me, what was your purpose in inserting "discriminating" in your rendition of Rom 9:16? If one needs to "willfully twist" a verse to insert their theology, then that theology is twisted. Why not just accept what Scripture says, in that "God so loved the world"? It does not say that God so loved those He has pre-chosen for everlasting life. Yet, it says, "Whosoever WILL" believe in the Son, will receive everlasting life.

You curse those who accept John 3:16 as truth by calling them "False Teachers", while all the while, it was the Holy Spirit who said, "whosoever will". Are we to assume you consider the Spirit a "False Teacher" for having said that? Surely, you will never admit that, but what else can one conclude when you imply that such is "nonsense", although it was spoken by the Spirit?
 
svedbygrace said:
The False Teachings of Jn 3:16


The False Teachings of Jn 3:16 of arminians of all sorts, freewillers, they do willfully twist Jn 3:16 to mean that depraved and spiritually dead and enslaved to sin men have a freewill deceision to make, to either believe or not to believe in Jesus, its their choice; but again Jn 3:16 states no such nonsense, for its declaring a statement of fact, in that those believing is the end and result of God's Great Love to them in giving Christ up to die for them, htus producing the believing results of them. In other words, His Giving of Christ to them as a Sacrifice Offering is why they are now believing ! Salvation is 110% God's Freewill choice to bestow it upon whomever He is pleased, its all His Work by His Triune Perfections and Wisdom, its all according to His Sovereign Mercy, and it is not of man that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God who shows discriminating Mercy Rom 9:16

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

The freewillers and Arminians contradict God's Word and say that Salvation is of him that willeth with his own freewill !837
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Dude, the term whosoever destroys your all master, hateful God theory.

WHOEVER means it is open to anyone. Not just a certain select group of people.

do us all a favor and stop thinking your so special that God chose you over everyone else.
 
svedbygrace said:
Those false teachers that tell us that Jesus Christ die for all the sinners amongst mankind, and yet they say multitudes for whom He did die, go to hell in unbelief and in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins[plural].

They do pervert God's Justice and here's how; For its liken unto this: Say a man was found guilty of a multitude of crimes against the State, in this he is justly sentenced to serve 25yrs as his punishment for those crimes. Upon release 25 yrs later, the following few days, he is again arrested and tried and found guilty of those same crimes, and sentenced to 25 yrs again as his just due punishment. That would be unjust would it not ? Was not Justice already served for those Crimes ? Of course it has, this is just a miscarriage of Justice, by convicting a criminal twice for the same crimes, and punishing him for the same, after justice has already been satisfied for those crimes.

Yet this is the conclusion we must come to, once we teach that those for whom Christ died, died for all their sins, satisfying all of God's Law and Justice for their crimes against His Holy Law, and now yet again they are made liable for those same crimes or sins, and this makes God a perverter of Justice.
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Are you also in that second time convicted list?or many times?Isn't it better to Pray if you overcame something and where others are still struggling?
Christians must bear one another.i'm sure you have heard of it.How much do you do it?
Were you the same overcomer 25 years back?look at yourself.
Isn't it lack of Love and Care,which is lack of Compassion that creates all sorts of imbalance.
How many addicts do you pray for,for their deliverance?
Did Jesus preach from the clouds?didn't He also die for our blackest sin?

Are you perfect?
i'm not talking about joel osteen,am talking about that weak brother,that weak sister in your Christian neighborhood whom you simply ticked off as unworthy..is that Jesus?
i am a man who condemned myself to death because i couldn't live carrying on with sinning, and living like a dung hill before God.But instead God showed me Mercy(lifted me up by His Spirit from death) and taught me He deeply Forgives to those who repent deeply.And also taught me the Greatest Lesson of Love that by not self condemning myself,God can clean me up and change me to be sinless like Him.(that takes a lot of reconciling,even for a vain word spoken)
And in the long run i am learning that i must forgive others,no matter what they did to me in the past and ask for forgiveness from them for what all hurts i made.Then by God i am set free and i have expereincing it little by little as each day goes by,growing stronger and stronger.
Otherwise i can sit on that church chair condemning others.
Love of God set me free and i pray for weak like me,not the perfect people.
Go taught me to Forgive,even if its sometimes hard.
Please rethink the way you think and Pray for those whom you think are going away.With Prayer start spending time with them and sensitive people, to help them to make their Faith more stronger.
you will become a Mighty Love Weapon of God and War Hammer that satan fears and make him flee.
 
quickened77 said:
So did he fail with the unbelievers ?
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How can God fail with the ones that make the conscious choice to not beleive after they have seen the amazing Mercy given to us through Christ, shown to them by God himself in the form of the Holy Spirit of truth?
Everyone will have their choice and know what the consequence of their choice is. God is that wonderful to reveal to us all, to make our choice as to who to believe in, God or flesh man, and this includes flesh self
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

That is the battle, still battling to this very day so: if you do not want to do the things you do, then I say:
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:4 that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

He did it all for you, me and all the world, leaving only one thing left. To Believe or to not believe. So either one believes or one does not.
Believe, receive and see, that simple, God is the one that does the revealing and reveals himself to those that truly believe, and sometimes or many times it takes awhile to see, past this gloomy unredeemed world and flesh of self because of, being taught from birth on, to do good to get rewarded, as in self efforts, attaching God as the helper rather than the leader.





By Christ as he said It is finished and gave up the Ghost, we were by this forgiven unto Father, to be and get new life in Father via the Spirit of Father given to us from Father to lead us and we follow in the Love to all through God's lead, just as Jesus did
 
Here is the difference !


Here is the difference in the matter of Faith and Believing and why Justification by works can be contrasted from Justification by Faith, when this difference is recognized and if not, its to our everlasting peril. Now this is why the work monger makes Faith/Believing a work, and the True Believer does not. For the one, the work monger, the act of believing or Faith is deemed a duty or condition to perform in order to get Justified before God, but to the other, the True Believer, Faith / Believing is an act done after it has been revealed to them that they are already in a Justifed state before God because of what Christ has done for them; So therein lies the difference.

To the one, the work monger, they tell us that their Faith is reckoned to God as their Righteousness, whereas the True Believer will tell us that the Object of his Faith, Christ has been revealed to be their Righteousness 1 Cor 1:30

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Rom 1:17

For therein is the righteousness of God[Christ] revealed from faith to faith: as it is written , The just shall live by faith.

How is Faith ones Righteousness, when Christ is revealed in the Gospel as ones Righteousness to Faith ?

So therein lies the difference ! To one the act of believing is in order to get righteous before God, but to the other the act of believing is because one discovers they are Righteous before God, an now rest in that fact !838
 
eg

Dude, the term whosoever destroys your all master, hateful God theory.
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You quoted something I posted then evaded the points made. Did you understand the reasoning behind the comment ? Please explain if you did !
 
svedbygrace said:
The False Teachings of Jn 3:16


The False Teachings of Jn 3:16 of arminians of all sorts, freewillers, they do willfully twist Jn 3:16 to mean that depraved and spiritually dead and enslaved to sin men have a freewill deceision to make, to either believe or not to believe in Jesus, its their choice; but again Jn 3:16 states no such nonsense, for its declaring a statement of fact, in that those believing is the end and result of God's Great Love to them in giving Christ up to die for them, htus producing the believing results of them. In other words, His Giving of Christ to them as a Sacrifice Offering is why they are now believing ! Salvation is 110% God's Freewill choice to bestow it upon whomever He is pleased, its all His Work by His Triune Perfections and Wisdom, its all according to His Sovereign Mercy, and it is not of man that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God who shows discriminating Mercy Rom 9:16

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

The freewillers and Arminians contradict God's Word and say that Salvation is of him that willeth with his own freewill !837
Click to expand...

Mark 1:15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mark 5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole
Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
John 4:42 and said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

To believe or not to believe is the last and final choice unto salvation given to us by God through Son?

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

It all starts with believing God and it shows by the responses of the believer in God's love not flesh love of condemnation
The tree, what kind it is always identified by its fruit
 
svedbygrace said:
Here is the difference !


Here is the difference in the matter of Faith and Believing and why Justification by works can be contrasted from Justification by Faith, when this difference is recognized and if not, its to our everlasting peril. Now this is why the work monger makes Faith/Believing a work, and the True Believer does not. For the one, the work monger, the act of believing or Faith is deemed a duty or condition to perform in order to get Justified before God, but to the other, the True Believer, Faith / Believing is an act done after it has been revealed to them that they are already in a Justifed state before God because of what Christ has done for them; So therein lies the difference.

To the one, the work monger, they tell us that their Faith is reckoned to God as their Righteousness, whereas the True Believer will tell us that the Object of his Faith, Christ has been revealed to be their Righteousness 1 Cor 1:30

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Rom 1:17

For therein is the righteousness of God[Christ] revealed from faith to faith: as it is written , The just shall live by faith.

How is Faith ones Righteousness, when Christ is revealed in the Gospel as ones Righteousness to Faith ?

So therein lies the difference ! To one the act of believing is in order to get righteous before God, but to the other the act of believing is because one discovers they are Righteous before God, an now rest in that fact !838
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The difference belief and faith is simple. Why are you trying to make it so complicated.

I can believe in God, and Jesus and Death. but that does not mean anything.

I can believe it, But trust my work and my effort is needed to save me (save myself or legalism)

I can believe it, yet not think I am such a bad sinner that I really need saved. Thus my faith is in myself (licentious)

Unless I Trust his word. and the whole of the gospel. My belief is no better than the demons, who also believe, and my faith is dead.

Faith is a trust. And it is faith which justifies. and it is justification which cleanses. and it is this cleansing which makes us born again.
 
cfu

If God is at fault for one's death, then He is the cause of their sin in order to fulfill His, according to predestination, quota of pre-damning souls . If He is the cause of their sin, then His judgment would be a false act of pretentiousness. If His judgment is false, then (fill in the blank).
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You quoted something I stated them evaded the points made, why ?
 
svedbygrace said:
eg



You quoted something I posted then evaded the points made. Did you understand the reasoning behind the comment ? Please explain if you did !
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what point. Your points were invalid because you reject the fact that all men are able to chose to come to Christ. WHOEVER come to him, calls on him, or trusts his word. will be saved.
 
​Unbelief is not a consequence of sin. For Eve had unbelief before she sinned. Or usurped her own reasoning greater than Gods. But it was unbelief , she did not believe Gods words were true. This was all before she sinned. So unbelief is not a consequence of sin. She was tempted by her own lust and enticed to not beleive ,but it was not sin till she acted upon her temtation.
 
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