So, what about them? Just because they were not among "the elect" does not mean they were all Israel. Neither were the Christian "Gentiles" they are compared to non-Israelites. "Ethnos," the Greek word from which "Gentiles" is translated means, nations, tribes, or people. The context of Romans identifies these "ethnos," this ethnicity, as diaspora Israelites, as the descendants of divorced cast off Israel hundreds of years earlier ("the lost sheep of the house of Israel"). There is nothing in the context of Romans telling us that the Christian Gentiles (the ethnos) were a mixture of Canaanites, Edomites, and/or other nearby non-Isralite people. If you think there is then tell me what this ancestry was.
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Saying, "Israel is temporarily blind" you then imply that this identifies all Israelites, and that the church therefore was comprised of non-Israelites. Where, do you get this stuff? Who do you think the epistle to the Hebrews describes if not those who were of the church? Who do you think James was writing if not those of the church? Where, in the context of Hebrews and James (and scores of other texts) does one find a church comprised of non-Israelites? Where? When are evangelicals going to wake up and recognize the leaven of today's Pharisees in the Dispensationalist-Futurist interpretation?
You are avoiding the fact that the "they" you refer to were only a small fraction of the total Israelites population at that time. A fraction of Israel is not representative of all Israel. Neither are you saying who those "Gentiles" were. With no contextual evidence whatsoever you just conveniently assume they were non-Israelites. In so doing you are building another error upon the first, the idea that all Isralites were Jews. This could not be further from the truth.
I will ask again, what was the ancestry of the Christian Gentiles you think were non-Israelites. And be specific. Give me chapter and verse in Romans where these Christians are described as Canaanites, Edomites, and/or other nearby non-Israelites. Again, be specific, do not just dogmatically say that because they are called Gentiles, they are not Jews and are not therefore, Israleites.
I will ask again, what was the ancestry of the Christian Gentiles you think were non-Israelites. And be specific. Give me chapter and verse in Romans where these Christians are described as Canaanites, Edomites, and/or other nearby non-Israelites. Again, be specific, do not just dogmatically say that because they are called Gentiles, they are not Jews and are not therefore, Israleites.
i understand that i am spiritually made a child of Abraham. i understand that not all Israel is "Israel." i understand that a lot of Christians believe that the church has completely replaced Israel and appropriate all of the OT promises under this thinking to the modern Ecclesia.
i don't understand, in that context, what to make of this (quoting the ESV):
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
(Romans 11:11-12)
or this, which seems pretty darn clear:
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
(Romans 11:25-32)
is it just simply this:
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
(Romans 11:33)
??
farouk isn't making this up and as far as i know the 11th chapter of Romans wasn't added to the bible or re-written by Scofield or any other dispensationalist in the 1800's.
the apostle Paul wrote it. 2000 years ago. it's not a new idea. seems to me that this question has come up in the past. . .
so what does replacement theology say about Romans 11?
does Hebrews contradict what Paul says here?
i don't understand, in that context, what to make of this (quoting the ESV):
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
(Romans 11:11-12)
or this, which seems pretty darn clear:
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
(Romans 11:25-32)
is it just simply this:
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
(Romans 11:33)
??
farouk isn't making this up and as far as i know the 11th chapter of Romans wasn't added to the bible or re-written by Scofield or any other dispensationalist in the 1800's.
the apostle Paul wrote it. 2000 years ago. it's not a new idea. seems to me that this question has come up in the past. . .
so what does replacement theology say about Romans 11?
does Hebrews contradict what Paul says here?
F
God does have a plan for Israel. One that will show Israel who their saviour is once and for all.
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
Fulfilled on the day of Pentecost:
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
James was writing to the Church, the Body of Christ, for he wrote of them James 2:1
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Gal 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Whenever Faith in Christ is involved its the Church, Abraham's Spiritual Seed Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Gal 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Whenever Faith in Christ is involved its the Church, Abraham's Spiritual Seed Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Yes, God had a plan for Israel, it was, and is, called the New Covenant. Promised to, and made with "the house of Israel and with the house of Judah" (Jer. 31:31; Heb. 8:8) it went into effect 2000 years ago. Read Hebrews, chapters 8-10 especially, and discover that it was Israelites who were and are the nucleus of the church. Hebrews, written to Hebrew-Israelites debunks the Dispensational-Futurist lie, the idea that the prophesied New Covenant was put on hold, because they say "Israel rejected Jesus." This teaching is the leaven of today's Pharisees, it's a lie one designed to assist them masquerade as Israel.
Yes, James was writing to the church, but where, as you imply, does he identify those of that church as non-Israelites? James, writing to the church, was also writing to "...the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" (James 1:1). Where then, do you get the idea that the people to whom James was writing were not Israelites? If you really think that those to whom James was writing were not Israelites, tell me, of which ethnicity were they? Were they Canaanites, Edormites, Eskimos, etc. Tell me, who were they descended from? Are we so brainwashed with the idea that Israel rejected Jesus that we can not see the forest for the trees?
Starfield, Acts 2:37-47, the verses in your above post describe the Holy Spirit coming---on Israelites, on those "thousands of Jews" (Acts 21:20) who were one and the same with the church at that time. If then, as we are told, Israel today is a mostly non-Christian entity (today's Pharisees, today's "synagogue Satan") when was the Holy Spirit removed? When?
Ugh! Not another replacement theology thread. This is the seed and justification of anti-semitism .
We get it. The Jews that are in Israel today have not accepted their Messiah Jesus. God said he was going to scatter them across the whole world and THEN regather them. Is it just a coincidence that the Jews are back in the Holy land, given to them, under the name of Israel?
Don't you understand that there will be a remnant that accepts Jesus and look on Him whom they pierced?
We get it. The Jews that are in Israel today have not accepted their Messiah Jesus. God said he was going to scatter them across the whole world and THEN regather them. Is it just a coincidence that the Jews are back in the Holy land, given to them, under the name of Israel?
Don't you understand that there will be a remnant that accepts Jesus and look on Him whom they pierced?
Uhg, Replacement Theology is the "replacement" of the Christian Israel described in Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, etc. with the people of the Talmud, with today's "...them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9; 3:9).
P.S.
Your friends, the people of the Talmud, consider the above quoted verse as "anti-Semitic," do you?
P.S.
Your friends, the people of the Talmud, consider the above quoted verse as "anti-Semitic," do you?
God has an overall plan, it has always been to save every human God created to live in His kingdom, a kingdom without sin. God picked out a gentile to create a race that He could use to help show everyone the way to be within that plan. Christ was born from that race.
Scripture says that God blinded that race to Christ as a savior for our benefit. Gentiles have been trying to understand all of it ever since, and I don't think any of us truly understands, Jews or gentiles. My human reasoning tells me that God is protecting these people even with their blindness, but I am human.
I think we can only obey God and watch. God tells us not to be against them. Gentiles have disobeyed that through the years, and many feel God says it is OK when they put them down for being Jews. I don't think that is right.
I study the lifestyle of orthodox Jews to see if the laws God gives us, even before Christ, really work in our world. From my study I have found they work surprisingly well for what is called shalom. The book "Jews in the Middle Ages" has been a pivotal book in my understanding of scripture for understanding God's law in our secular world and it's effects.
Scripture says that God blinded that race to Christ as a savior for our benefit. Gentiles have been trying to understand all of it ever since, and I don't think any of us truly understands, Jews or gentiles. My human reasoning tells me that God is protecting these people even with their blindness, but I am human.
I think we can only obey God and watch. God tells us not to be against them. Gentiles have disobeyed that through the years, and many feel God says it is OK when they put them down for being Jews. I don't think that is right.
I study the lifestyle of orthodox Jews to see if the laws God gives us, even before Christ, really work in our world. From my study I have found they work surprisingly well for what is called shalom. The book "Jews in the Middle Ages" has been a pivotal book in my understanding of scripture for understanding God's law in our secular world and it's effects.
You ignore the fact that Israel exists after a regathering of it's scattered people.
You ignore that Jesus is returning to Israel. Why is that? Why isn't he returning to America or some place else?
You ignore that the whole world is against the Jews and the final battle will take place in Israel (Armageddon)
God's promises are not contingent upon human beings.
Israel of old had vast stretches of time where MOST of the people turned from God (even their kings) to idols and other gods. They were, and continue to be, chastened and rebuked. This did not, nor does it currently, negate God's promises.
You have to use allegories for almost the whole Bible to believe that gentile Christians replaced all the promises God made to the Jews. JESUS IS JEWISH! He continues to be Jewish. WE are grafted in. Some Jews have, and WILL accept Jesus. Those that don't are lost like the rest of the world that doesn't accept Him. According to you EVERY single current Jew has to be a Christian or the nation of Israel doesn't really exist.
Ask yourself now. How and why is there a nation Israel TODAY, that is a Jewish nation? How do you rationalize that?
You ignore that Jesus is returning to Israel. Why is that? Why isn't he returning to America or some place else?
You ignore that the whole world is against the Jews and the final battle will take place in Israel (Armageddon)
God's promises are not contingent upon human beings.
Israel of old had vast stretches of time where MOST of the people turned from God (even their kings) to idols and other gods. They were, and continue to be, chastened and rebuked. This did not, nor does it currently, negate God's promises.
You have to use allegories for almost the whole Bible to believe that gentile Christians replaced all the promises God made to the Jews. JESUS IS JEWISH! He continues to be Jewish. WE are grafted in. Some Jews have, and WILL accept Jesus. Those that don't are lost like the rest of the world that doesn't accept Him. According to you EVERY single current Jew has to be a Christian or the nation of Israel doesn't really exist.
Ask yourself now. How and why is there a nation Israel TODAY, that is a Jewish nation? How do you rationalize that?