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This all that I am saying, so what is your problem? You say that I hate instruments, which I don't, you say I hate dancing, I don't hate dancing, which I happen to like some forms of dancing, but pay attention to what I'm saying, it's all about in worship, worship, worship is where I have the problem, now do you understand. I am to the point, that is my way because all to long people like yourself have sat by and pampered people when they were wrong instead of standing up for God, just like you did with instruments, so don't tell me how to communicate when at least I'm out there not pampering people when their believing a lie, I tell them the truth. I been doing this for forty years and I may not be liked, but that's ok, neither was Jesus or Paul, as a matter of fact they were in a sense called being mean in what they were doing, so you do what you got to do and I'll do what I have to do.
I never said you hated dancing, instruments ect. You're now twisted words to fit your own agenda to condemn others and puff yourself up. With Christianity comes compassion and understanding. You can teach others the truth without being condemning. You say that you have acted this way for 40 years? I seriously wonder how many sould you have turned away from God by your attitude.
You aren't Paul, and you certainly aren't Jesus. Jesus spoke of love and obedience. You speak of criticism, and arrogance. You have the nerve to tell people they don't stand up for God when you brag about how righteous you are. A soft answer turns away wrath, but you don't seem to get that part. I do pray God shows you mercy, because you surely show no mercy to anyone and you do not have that authority.

Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding. 2 Cor 10:12


 
I never said you hated dancing, instruments ect. You're now twisted words to fit your own agenda to condemn others and puff yourself up. With Christianity comes compassion and understanding. You can teach others the truth without being condemning. You say that you have acted this way for 40 years? I seriously wonder how many sould you have turned away from God by your attitude.
You aren't Paul, and you certainly aren't Jesus. Jesus spoke of love and obedience. You speak of criticism, and arrogance. You have the nerve to tell people they don't stand up for God when you brag about how righteous you are. A soft answer turns away wrath, but you don't seem to get that part. I do pray God shows you mercy, because you surely show no mercy to anyone and you do not have that authority.

Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding. 2 Cor 10:12


I went back to the original post you wrote and you are right, you didn't say that I hated these things and with that I am truly sorry for saying you did. I feel I got you mixed up with someone else who was commenting on my not liking instruments. Again I'm truly very sorry for accusing you on something you didn't do.
 
Have you ever seen a child with very poor clothing on and the parent comes in the store and buys alcohol, but the child gets nothing. Every time a person goes and buys alcohol you give this and other children a negative effect for them to believe it's ok instead of letting them know it's not. Have you seen someone drink mouthwash because they didn't have anything else to drink. I worked as a Paramedic for many years and also at a in patient mental health facility and I can assure you that alcohol is a destroyer of life, and this you say is ok when God doesn't approve of it at all, he condemns it, and on top of this your father was killed by a drunk driver and you still say it's ok, you are living a lie. Paul and Jesus wasn't likedby manyl, as a matter of fact you could say they were considered, how you say, mean.
. If you realize the souls that have been lost from what has happen in the last twenty years with instruments being allowed in some you would understand why I'm so to the point, again John the Baptist was another person who was to the point. I care about people is why I am on here.
You're walking a very fine line with me. I am very much aware of the circumstances of alcohol and the consequences. I am also aware of mental illness and the effects it has on people. I also know that it is wrong to blame objects for your own sins and until people get to the root of the issue and have a change of heart they will never walk away from abuse and addiction. Alcohol is not a destroyer of life. Sin is. The abuse is. I could have a beer bottle sitting on my table. It could sit there for years. Is it destroying my life by sitting there? No. Drinking it in excess is. How dare you say that I think alcohol is ok after my father was ripped from me. It is extremely vile that you took my fathers death and wisted it to accuse me of condoning sin.
I never condoned drinking. I never condoned instruments. I never condoned sin. God is the judge. NOT YOU.

You have no problem being blunt but you have no tact. You come to a forum where you know absolutely no one here. You don't know their strengths, weaknesses or whether their faith is strong or not. You cannot come to a forum and condemn ones you say are lose and expect someone to receive it gladly. You don't know if the reader is hurting spiritually or confused. You barged in this place like a freight train telling people how they are lost and how they should worship the Church of Christ way without giving the history of the Church of Christ or why many hold these beliefs. You started out accusing before you even posted a single scripture to support your stance. You hurt people that way. You think you are helping but you aren't. There is a time to be blunt, and then there are times to be compassionate and understanding. Being blunt online when you don't know the audience is usually destructive.
 
I went back to the original post you wrote and you are right, you didn't say that I hated these things and with that I am truly sorry for saying you did. I feel I got you mixed up with someone else who was commenting on my not liking instruments. Again I'm truly very sorry for accusing you on something you didn't do.
Ok. You're forgiven.
 
Baptism is for people who understand they are sinners and need forgiveness and know who Jesus is and why he died on the cross and that he is the Son of God, with that knowledge the person is ready to be baptized. As you said if all avenues have been attempted to have the person baptized and the Dr. feels against it for medical reasons, I to have no doubt that he is saved

What you are saying is that there are more than one way to be saved.
Some must be baptised and some for some it is not necessary.
You like to use scripture out of contex, so quote the verse that God has a double standard when it comes to salvatiion.
God has ONE plane for salvation, not two or three or four depending on the person or the circumstances of his life.
Baptism is NOT necessary.
 
Shave, my very first thread on this forum was one asking if there were any other church of christers in here. I even stated that i wasn't making it to argue beliefs, but if there was anyone who shared similiar views. Well, it didnt take long for the condemnation to take place. I was accused of being Mormon and many other things.

I have been a jerk to you, and I am sorry. I guess from dealing with this place for so long I tend to know how things will go, and honestly if this thread keeps up the way it is you will be in danger of being kicked from this site. I know this because I have seen it alot on here. People mean well but they just dont seem to behave at times so they get banned. I dont want that to happen to you. I am glad you are here! I truly am! I just don't want to see you removed from here or even be threatened to be removed.

Theres already a few people here who think I am going to Hell because I dont believe in tongues, miracles, etc. And because I feel women should be silent in worship and seem to delight themselves int eh fact that they think I am going to Hell. As a matter of fact a few(one who says is a preacher) brags about it. I even have my own little anti-CoC stalker that will randomly pop up in threads with the sole purpose or telling me that I worship satan bc I am CoC. This place can be a bit rough at times. Please be careful.
 
Shave, my very first thread on this forum was one asking if there were any other church of christers in here. I even stated that i wasn't making it to argue beliefs, but if there was anyone who shared similiar views. Well, it didnt take long for the condemnation to take place. I was accused of being Mormon and many other things.

I have been a jerk to you, and I am sorry. I guess from dealing with this place for so long I tend to know how things will go, and honestly if this thread keeps up the way it is you will be in danger of being kicked from this site. I know this because I have seen it alot on here. People mean well but they just dont seem to behave at times so they get banned. I dont want that to happen to you. I am glad you are here! I truly am! I just don't want to see you removed from here or even be threatened to be removed.

Theres already a few people here who think I am going to Hell because I dont believe in tongues, miracles, etc. And because I feel women should be silent in worship and seem to delight themselves int eh fact that they think I am going to Hell. As a matter of fact a few(one who says is a preacher) brags about it. I even have my own little anti-CoC stalker that will randomly pop up in threads with the sole purpose or telling me that I worship satan bc I am CoC. This place can be a bit rough at times. Please be careful.
Dear sister in Christ, I know exactly what you been through and will continue to go through because of your belief, but it comes with the territory, because you have been blessed more than many. The truth hurts and it's not that I want to hurt anybody but I have to stand firm if I'm going to be able to get the message out and people who are not saved in my eyes, meaning being in the right church is a hard thing for anybody to hear when they believe in a different way, but the truth has to be told. Thanks for making me aware of what's out there and always let me know if you feel I've done something wrong, In Christian Love.
 
What you are saying is that there are more than one way to be saved.
Some must be baptised and some for some it is not necessary.
You like to use scripture out of contex, so quote the verse that God has a double standard when it comes to salvatiion.
God has ONE plane for salvation, not two or three or four depending on the person or the circumstances of his life.
Baptism is NOT necessary.
Common sense says that if all, and I mean all avenues have been attempted, then what else is one left to believe, that God is a God of no compassion in circumstances above your abilities are no excuse, I don't think God is like that at all. There is only one way to be saved, believe, which he did, and be baptized, which he also believed it to be necessary, but due to circumstances beyond his abilities isn't able to.
 
You're walking a very fine line with me. I am very much aware of the circumstances of alcohol and the consequences. I am also aware of mental illness and the effects it has on people. I also know that it is wrong to blame objects for your own sins and until people get to the root of the issue and have a change of heart they will never walk away from abuse and addiction. Alcohol is not a destroyer of life. Sin is. The abuse is. I could have a beer bottle sitting on my table. It could sit there for years. Is it destroying my life by sitting there? No. Drinking it in excess is. How dare you say that I think alcohol is ok after my father was ripped from me. It is extremely vile that you took my fathers death and wisted it to accuse me of condoning sin.
I never condoned drinking. I never condoned instruments. I never condoned sin. God is the judge. NOT YOU.

You have no problem being blunt but you have no tact. You come to a forum where you know absolutely no one here. You don't know their strengths, weaknesses or whether their faith is strong or not. You cannot come to a forum and condemn ones you say are lose and expect someone to receive it gladly. You don't know if the reader is hurting spiritually or confused. You barged in this place like a freight train telling people how they are lost and how they should worship the Church of Christ way without giving the history of the Church of Christ or why many hold these beliefs. You started out accusing before you even posted a single scripture to support your stance. You hurt people that way. You think you are helping but you aren't. There is a time to be blunt, and then there are times to be compassionate and understanding. Being blunt online when you don't know the audience is usually destructive.
I Quote you as saying, The point I am trying to make is alcohol is not bad, end of quote, What then am I suppose to believe if you say this?
 
It is in the greek my friend. I do not have to prove you wrong God already did.

"The three clauses are --
(1) 'Repent ye:'

'ye' -- subject, second person plural number.

'Repent' -- verb, second person plural number, aorist imperative active voice.

(2) 'be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of sins:'

“every one of you” – third person, singular number.

'be baptized' -- verb, third person singular number, aorist passive imperative voice.

“unto the remission of your sins” – modifying phrase.

(3) 'ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit:'

'ye' -- subject, second person plural number.

'shall receive' -- verb, second person plural number, future, indicative voice.

'the gift of the Holy Spirit' -- direct object of verb.

if you look. repent was spoken in 2nd person plural (spoken to all) the gift of the spirit was the subject of the second person plural verb, ye being the plural subject (as found in the old english bibles,Ye is plural) in the updated versions, it says you, which can be plural or singular.


in the second phrase, we have you as the singular third person subject, Baptism as the 3rd person singular verb, and remission of sin as the modifier which again is third person singular.

2nd person plural and third person singular phrases do not fit. they are separate things.
[/QUOTE] Jesus identifies faith as a work, but it is a work of God. This simply means that faith is commanded by God; and when one obeys, he is not performing a work of merit about which he can boast; rather, he is honoring the work instructed by God unto which every man must be careful to submit if eternal life is to be obtained. Paul, after explaining the result of Christ’s humble condescension as a man and servant, pleaded with the Philippians, saying, “So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12).
Jesus concisely affirms, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). It is impossible to misunderstand this statement. One may dispute this statement if he wishes, but the statement remains – uncompromisingly stated. It is a fundamental fact of Bible interpretation that the passages that are most crucial to one’s salvation are the easiest to understand. In this passage, two conditions of the total plan of salvation are plainly stated. Appropriate to an outline of the divine requirements, Jesus combines the initial act of obedience – belief – and the final act – baptism – into a promise for salvation. The two acts are joined together as equals by the Greek conjunction kai.
It should appear obvious even to the most amateur student of Scripture that these two items are but representative of the fuller complement of sacred obligations mentioned elsewhere by Jesus. For example, both repentance and confession are unmentioned in this verse, but other passages reveal that both are absolutely essential to one’s salvation (see Matthew 10:32; Mark 1:15; Luke 24:47). The one leaving no stone unturned to make his salvation sure will come to recognize that it is not at all uncommon for the New Testament writers to emphasize certain conditions of salvation without listing the entire catalog of requirements (e.g., John 3:16; Acts 17:30; I Peter 3:21). This is a principle of Bible interpretation that sectarian bodies sorely need to recognize.
Mark 16:16 renders the appropriate order in which the divine conditions must be exercised. As addressed previously, some (i.e., hardcore Calvinist) contend that salvation comes first, certain men having been predestined for salvation apart from any obedience whatsoever. In baptizing infants, Catholicism contends that baptism is administered first, thus procuring salvation, while personal faith develops later with maturity. The majority of Protestantism, however, alleges that faith is the sole act that produces salvation. Subsequent to that, while a person may be baptized for a host of various reasons, one is not baptized for the forgiveness of sins or in order to be saved.
Each of these theories is untenable with the facts related by Jesus and the teachings of the apostles as demonstrated throughout the New Testament. The order of acts held in the previous theories are unknown in the Scriptures, and to teach such as doctrine is to malign the plan of salvation. Jesus taught very succinctly, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” To alter the arrangement in any way is to corrupt the teachings of the Lord!
In reviewing this statement by Jesus, not only in the English, but in the Greek, the grammar makes it certain that both belief and baptism are actions which precede salvation. The personal actions “has believed” and “has been baptized” are both aorist tense participles (a participle is a word that has characteristics of both an adjective and a verb). “An aorist participle usually refers to antecedent time with respect to the main verb” (Heiser, 2005). This means that the aorist action occurs prior to or before that of the leading verb.
In Mark 16:16, the leading verb is “shall be saved.” This verb is future tense as opposed to the aorist tense of the participles. In English, the full force of the Lord’s affirmation is best realized by the NASB translation: “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.” Though not common in circulation, Young’s Literal Translation also accurately reflects the Greek tenses: “he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved.” Both belief and baptism must be accomplished before one may enjoy the future promise of “shall be saved.” The person refusing baptism in order to be saved is actually refusing his own salvation
 
Common sense says that if all, and I mean all avenues have been attempted, then what else is one left to believe, that God is a God of no compassion in circumstances above your abilities are no excuse, I don't think God is like that at all. There is only one way to be saved, believe, which he did, and be baptized, which he also believed it to be necessary, but due to circumstances beyond his abilities isn't able to.

NO, he understood that his faith is what saved him and baptism was not necessary for anyone to be saved.
He wanted to be baptised because he understood it was a picture to the world that the old man was dead and buried, and a new man was standing up.
He knew that he was going to heaven because of his faith, just like Abrham.

I think II Timothy 3:7 describes your understanding.

I am reminded of Luke 10 where Jesus sent out the 70, two by two.
He told them to teach those who received them, but in verse 10 and 11 "But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same city, and say Even the very dust of your city, which cleave on us, we do wipe off against you: "


WIPE, WIPE, WIPE
 
I Quote you as saying, The point I am trying to make is alcohol is not bad, end of quote, What then am I suppose to believe if you say this?
Alcohol isn't bad. It is amoral. Misuse of alcohol is bad. Alcohol can be used in many ways. It is used as an ateseptic(if you are in to painful burns, but it does work). It is in some cough medicines. I know beer can help one pass a kidney stone(thank goodness I dont have kidney stones, and I can't stand the smell of beer. Much less the taste). It is good for antibacterial use. Since you said you were a paramedic I am sure you used alcohol at some point.
Now, if one wants to use alcohol to get drunk then they have problems.
 
I had this happen to me and another brother. They called us to the nurseing home, there was a lady wanting to be baptized, she went to the church of Christ when she was a kid. We were looking for a place to baptize her, and they called her Doctor. He said no! So when I got home I called the Doctor, he was a good man 7thDay Avent. I asked him why? He said, it wasn't necssary. He said the Thief on the Cross wasn't baptized. We discussed that also. He himself has passed away now.

My thoughts on that is this. He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. He would believes and wants to be baptized and can't, is in the hands of a merceyful God who can worry about him.


Shava: you sound just like me. We had a memeber on the last Chat Room THAT could say the same things I did and didn't get booted off. They HATED me! I AM NO WHERE close to her ability to comunicate. I just think the world of her. I really felt she was a genius, I told her that many times, she said no it was her husband that was. We discussed politics also at that site.

Oh, one more thing. Talking about common sence. On night I was getting on my daughter telling her she just didn't have any common sence. My Middle child, said what did you say dad. I told him you sisster just don't have an common sence.

He said.....Common Knoweldge is only common to them that know it. I asked him where he heard that. He said it just came to him. I have asked him so many times now, I don't think he could change it if he didn't. I thought that was DEEP.

I to am sorry If is was a little to strong. I kow your doing the best you can to help others.
 
i would suggest that you get out into the world a little. if god considers old annie perkins playing amazing grace on the piano to be sin then it would seem that he has very little to do and he must be missing the pain that western christians ignore. i can understand that when little willard plays his brand new trumpet in church god might have to lower the volume level, but sin ??? you might take a look at the local homeless shelter or under your local bridges then reevaluate your idea of sin. like the t shirt says: WWJD?
 
i think that would have been cause for a complaint to the state medical board. if she wanted baptism and he allowed his personal theology to override her wishes he wasnt much of a doctor. it was certainly reportable.
 
I had this happen to me and another brother. They called us to the nurseing home, there was a lady wanting to be baptized, she went to the church of Christ when she was a kid. We were looking for a place to baptize her, and they called her Doctor. He said no! So when I got home I called the Doctor, he was a good man 7thDay Avent. I asked him why? He said, it wasn't necssary. He said the Thief on the Cross wasn't baptized. We discussed that also. He himself has passed away now.

My thoughts on that is this. He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. He would believes and wants to be baptized and can't, is in the hands of a merceyful God who can worry about him.


Shava: you sound just like me. We had a memeber on the last Chat Room THAT could say the same things I did and didn't get booted off. They HATED me! I AM NO WHERE close to her ability to comunicate. I just think the world of her. I really felt she was a genius, I told her that many times, she said no it was her husband that was. We discussed politics also at that site.

Oh, one more thing. Talking about common sence. On night I was getting on my daughter telling her she just didn't have any common sence. My Middle child, said what did you say dad. I told him you sisster just don't have an common sence.

He said.....Common Knoweldge is only common to them that know it. I asked him where he heard that. He said it just came to him. I have asked him so many times now, I don't think he could change it if he didn't. I thought that was DEEP.

I to am sorry If is was a little to strong. I kow your doing the best you can to help others.
A woman wanted to be baptized and her doctor said no due to his own biblical views? Are you kidding me?
 
i would suggest that you get out into the world a little. if god considers old annie perkins playing amazing grace on the piano to be sin then it would seem that he has very little to do and he must be missing the pain that western christians ignore. i can understand that when little willard plays his brand new trumpet in church god might have to lower the volume level, but sin ??? you might take a look at the local homeless shelter or under your local bridges then reevaluate your idea of sin. like the t shirt says: WWJD?
I dont think any Christian should tell another Christian to "get out into the world a little". Youre not the first one here to say that, and it is quite disturbing.
 
Jesus identifies faith as a work, but it is a work of God. This simply means that faith is commanded by God; and when one obeys, he is not performing a work of merit about which he can boast; rather, he is honoring the work instructed by God unto which every man must be careful to submit if eternal life is to be obtained. Paul, after explaining the result of Christ’s humble condescension as a man and servant, pleaded with the Philippians, saying, “So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12).
Jesus concisely affirms, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). It is impossible to misunderstand this statement. One may dispute this statement if he wishes, but the statement remains – uncompromisingly stated. It is a fundamental fact of Bible interpretation that the passages that are most crucial to one’s salvation are the easiest to understand. In this passage, two conditions of the total plan of salvation are plainly stated. Appropriate to an outline of the divine requirements, Jesus combines the initial act of obedience – belief – and the final act – baptism – into a promise for salvation. The two acts are joined together as equals by the Greek conjunction kai.
It should appear obvious even to the most amateur student of Scripture that these two items are but representative of the fuller complement of sacred obligations mentioned elsewhere by Jesus. For example, both repentance and confession are unmentioned in this verse, but other passages reveal that both are absolutely essential to one’s salvation (see Matthew 10:32; Mark 1:15; Luke 24:47). The one leaving no stone unturned to make his salvation sure will come to recognize that it is not at all uncommon for the New Testament writers to emphasize certain conditions of salvation without listing the entire catalog of requirements (e.g., John 3:16; Acts 17:30; I Peter 3:21). This is a principle of Bible interpretation that sectarian bodies sorely need to recognize.
Mark 16:16 renders the appropriate order in which the divine conditions must be exercised. As addressed previously, some (i.e., hardcore Calvinist) contend that salvation comes first, certain men having been predestined for salvation apart from any obedience whatsoever. In baptizing infants, Catholicism contends that baptism is administered first, thus procuring salvation, while personal faith develops later with maturity. The majority of Protestantism, however, alleges that faith is the sole act that produces salvation. Subsequent to that, while a person may be baptized for a host of various reasons, one is not baptized for the forgiveness of sins or in order to be saved.
Each of these theories is untenable with the facts related by Jesus and the teachings of the apostles as demonstrated throughout the New Testament. The order of acts held in the previous theories are unknown in the Scriptures, and to teach such as doctrine is to malign the plan of salvation. Jesus taught very succinctly, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” To alter the arrangement in any way is to corrupt the teachings of the Lord!
In reviewing this statement by Jesus, not only in the English, but in the Greek, the grammar makes it certain that both belief and baptism are actions which precede salvation. The personal actions “has believed” and “has been baptized” are both aorist tense participles (a participle is a word that has characteristics of both an adjective and a verb). “An aorist participle usually refers to antecedent time with respect to the main verb” (Heiser, 2005). This means that the aorist action occurs prior to or before that of the leading verb.
In Mark 16:16, the leading verb is “shall be saved.” This verb is future tense as opposed to the aorist tense of the participles. In English, the full force of the Lord’s affirmation is best realized by the NASB translation: “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.” Though not common in circulation, Young’s Literal Translation also accurately reflects the Greek tenses: “he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved.” Both belief and baptism must be accomplished before one may enjoy the future promise of “shall be saved.” The person refusing baptism in order to be saved is actually refusing his own salvation

Thats alright, Ignore the greek. Ignore the rules of language (it does not even fit in the englishrules of gramar. For it would be all of you repent, and let them be baptized. I guess the author of scripture was not very smart to make a mistake. and God must have not caught this grave error)

Listen to your men, and work to earn your salvation and call Paul a liar.

Good luck.
 
I know I am gonna sound like an idiot here, but can someone tell me how baptism is a "work"? I get that many don't support baptism if they feel it is a "work" but I have never seen it as a work.
I have always looked at is as a "work of God" and out of submission to Gods command. Anything involving salvation is not a "work"
In other words baptism is an act of faith. Baptism is also a one time thing. Once you get it, it's there. You don't continue to be baptized.