DRINKING AND THE SCRIPTURES
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I was wrong......another western thought about an ancient eastern society. They preserved the grapes instead of preserving the juice.
The Preservation of Grapes. Several methods were used for preserving grapes fresh. One of them consisted in cutting the grapes with lengthy branches and sealing the cut with pitch. The grapes were then placed in vessels filled with dry chaff. "In order that the grapes may remain green for as much as a year," Columella explains, "you will keep them in the following manner. When you have cut from the vine grapes . . . , immediately treat their pedicles with hard pitch; then fill a new earthenware pan with the driest possible chaff, which has been sifted that it may be free from dust, and put the grapes upon it. Then cover it with another pan and daub it around with clay mixed with chaff, and then, after arranging the pans in a very dry loft, cover them with dry chaff."9
Other people, according to Columella, preserved grapes by dipping their pedicles into boiling pitch immediately after they were cut, and then placing them in dishes arranged in different layers within a barrel containing boiled-down must.10 Instead of must, some people used barley-bran to "fill the barrel with alternate strata of bran and grapes. Next they put on the lids and seal them up and store the grapes in a very dry and cool loft."11
Columella goes on relating similar methods used by other people. "Some people," he says, "after the same method, preserve green grapes in dry sawdust of poplar-wood or fir; others cover up the grapes, which they have picked from the vines when they were not too ripe, in dry flower of gypsum. Others, when they have picked a bunch, cut off with shears any defective grapes in it, and then hang it up in the granary where there is wheat stored below them. But this method causes the grapes to become shrivelled and almost as sweet as raisins."12
After describing several other methods used by different people to preserve grapes fresh, Columella concludes, saying: "different methods suit different districts according to the local conditions and the quality of the grapes."13
Pliny, a Roman scholar and naturalist, contemporary of Columella, briefly describes in his Natural History other methods used to preserve grapes: "Some grapes will last all through the winter if the clusters are hung by a string from the ceiling, and others will keep merely in their own natural vigor by being stood in earthenware jars with casks put over them, and packed round with fermenting grape-skins."14
Squeezed Grapes. The fact that the ancients knew several methods for preserving grapes fresh until the following vintage suggests that unfermented grape juice could be produced at any time of the year simply by squeezing grapes into a cup. This practice is confirmed both in rabbinical and Christian literature.
The Preservation of Grapes. Several methods were used for preserving grapes fresh. One of them consisted in cutting the grapes with lengthy branches and sealing the cut with pitch. The grapes were then placed in vessels filled with dry chaff. "In order that the grapes may remain green for as much as a year," Columella explains, "you will keep them in the following manner. When you have cut from the vine grapes . . . , immediately treat their pedicles with hard pitch; then fill a new earthenware pan with the driest possible chaff, which has been sifted that it may be free from dust, and put the grapes upon it. Then cover it with another pan and daub it around with clay mixed with chaff, and then, after arranging the pans in a very dry loft, cover them with dry chaff."9
Other people, according to Columella, preserved grapes by dipping their pedicles into boiling pitch immediately after they were cut, and then placing them in dishes arranged in different layers within a barrel containing boiled-down must.10 Instead of must, some people used barley-bran to "fill the barrel with alternate strata of bran and grapes. Next they put on the lids and seal them up and store the grapes in a very dry and cool loft."11
Columella goes on relating similar methods used by other people. "Some people," he says, "after the same method, preserve green grapes in dry sawdust of poplar-wood or fir; others cover up the grapes, which they have picked from the vines when they were not too ripe, in dry flower of gypsum. Others, when they have picked a bunch, cut off with shears any defective grapes in it, and then hang it up in the granary where there is wheat stored below them. But this method causes the grapes to become shrivelled and almost as sweet as raisins."12
After describing several other methods used by different people to preserve grapes fresh, Columella concludes, saying: "different methods suit different districts according to the local conditions and the quality of the grapes."13
Pliny, a Roman scholar and naturalist, contemporary of Columella, briefly describes in his Natural History other methods used to preserve grapes: "Some grapes will last all through the winter if the clusters are hung by a string from the ceiling, and others will keep merely in their own natural vigor by being stood in earthenware jars with casks put over them, and packed round with fermenting grape-skins."14
Squeezed Grapes. The fact that the ancients knew several methods for preserving grapes fresh until the following vintage suggests that unfermented grape juice could be produced at any time of the year simply by squeezing grapes into a cup. This practice is confirmed both in rabbinical and Christian literature.
I can say this I would rather be prayed up filled with the Holy Ghost than drunk with the wine that perishes and corrupts . Let us then walk in the fullness of Christ being in all manner consecrated and Holy unto God for the example Jesus spoke highly of was john the baptist which did not drink but was spoken very highly by the Lord of the sabbath Our Lord Jesus Christ....
I agree, because Jesus did not drink and the bible tells us to be Christ like, and if we're to be Christ like then we are to not drink alcohol. we are to be Christ-like ... To say that Christ indulged in alcohol would contradict his stand against it. Wine to water was non alcoholic, if not Jesus would have sinned. People that are dying in todays world have medicine to help ease the pain. When Timothy was told to drink a little alcohol for his stomach, it was actually the vinegar in the alcohol which was the medicinal part. We have in todays world all kinds of medicines to help people with stomach ailments and depression. I agree that then for medicine sake a little alcohol was beneficial, but to use any of this now for the purposes of then is wrong, the reason it's wrong God has given us the ability to develop medicines that are far superior than drinking a little alcohol and he without a doubt had insight on how alcohol would now as it did then cause people to abuse it.
Until Christ is formed in you ... in other words ... until you look like Him. Just as God formed Adam out of the clay, so He is now forming you and I - to look just like His Son, Jesus.
Paul had the same heartcry for all those he took responsibility for spiritually. To the church in Corinth he wrote, "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:1 )
Until Christ is formed in you ... in other words ... until you look like Him. Just as God formed Adam out of the clay, so He is now forming you and I - to look just like His Son, Jesus.
Paul had the same heartcry for all those he took responsibility for spiritually. To the church in Corinth he wrote, "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:1 )
E
Facts are facts are facts.
They did it for a week. Guess you have not "researched" as well as you thought.
Not everyone who drinks gets wasted. People drink casually all the time. I guess you have never been to one of those long celebrations. I have (not jewish) in NY, City, and people just drink and eat. No one gets wasted.
They did it for a week. Guess you have not "researched" as well as you thought.
Not everyone who drinks gets wasted. People drink casually all the time. I guess you have never been to one of those long celebrations. I have (not jewish) in NY, City, and people just drink and eat. No one gets wasted.
E
I have put up with 17 pages of misinformation & name calling, & you wonder why I'm defensive. 
we feel the same way about people ignoring Gods word, and them calling us names and condemning us. or saying we stick up for booze. or fight for it (another lie)
I hope you do not think anyone is going to read all that stuff. we are not hear to discuss what other men thing. But what God thinks, and what you think. that is a discussion
So, you know what God thinks? Did He tell you? What you're telling me is what YOU think. I am merely searching for educated christians who are reputable, and in agreement. I don't know you or DC, so guess what......... you're not credible to me.
I don't expect to be credible in people's eyes....... so I post those that are. If you don't want to listen to commentaries & theologians, that's your problem. I don't believe for a moment, neither should others, that chat members know more than commentaries & theologians.
I don't expect to be credible in people's eyes....... so I post those that are. If you don't want to listen to commentaries & theologians, that's your problem. I don't believe for a moment, neither should others, that chat members know more than commentaries & theologians.
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Isaiah 5:21-24 (KJV) [SUP]21 [/SUP]Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! [SUP]22 [/SUP]Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: [SUP]23 [/SUP]Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
It is true that we're not Israel...... but here we see God's attitude towards such people that do these things, yes?
It is true that we're not Israel...... but here we see God's attitude towards such people that do these things, yes?
I was an alcoholic before I got saved. God told me to give it, up, which I had tried to do many times before I met Jesus. The Holy Spirit simply delivered me from that sin, and I have never had a drink again, going on 34 years, and never missed it. In fact, I prefer being sober, when I see how people need to drink to relax. We should be resting in God, not relaxing with wine!
"Truly my soul finds rest in God;
my salvation comes from him.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Truly he is my rock and my salvation;
he is my fortress, I will never be shaken." Psalm 62:1-2
A few years after I was saved, I heard a lot of talk and controversy about this topic of old wine, new wine. And how it was ok to drink, just socially, not to drunkenness. Well, not to be a stumbling block to others, I got out my Strong's concordance, because in those days, I did not know Hebrew, nor have the resources. But an interesting pattern emerged.
In Hebrew, every time the word "wine" was used for holy joy, or for something to do with God, the Holy Spirit, the non-alcoholic beverage word was used.
Every time the word "wine" was used for drunkenness or intoxication, it was always the word yayin, (הַיַּ֖יִן ) "the wine."
"[SUP]21 [/SUP]He drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent." Gen. 9:21 ESV
"וַיֵּ֥שְׁתְּ מִן־הַיַּ֖יִן וַיִּשְׁכָּ֑ר וַיִּתְגַּ֖ל בְּתֹ֥וךְ אָהֳלֹֽה ׃" Gen. 9:21 Hebrew
"When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him," Gen.9:24. ESV
"וַיִּ֥יקֶץ נֹ֖חַ מִיֵּינֹ֑ו וַיֵּ֕דַע אֵ֛ת אֲשֶׁר־עָ֥שָׂה־לֹ֖ו בְּנֹ֥ו הַקָּטָֽן׃" Gen. 9:24 Hebrew
Please note this is the FIRST time wine of any sort was mentioned, and it occurred after the flood. This leaves me to speculate that alcoholic wine was result of the flood, perhaps yeast coming up from the "fountains of the deep," where they had been hiding.
And it is interesting, that God gave Noah and his family permission to eat meat after the flood, he never gave them permission to get drunk. Yayin occurs 136 times in the Old Testament, and as I recall there was only one or two incidents where the use of the word was not totally negative.
The other word used in the Old Testament for "wine" is tiyrosh, (וְתִירֹֽש). This contains the little word "rosh" which means beginning or new as in Rosh HaShanah. (Happy New Year in Hebrew) Thus, the NEW wine, or as Strong's notes "the sense of expulsion, fresh grape juice, (as in just squeezed out), new, sweet wine. It occurs 34 times, and always in a positive sense, and associated with God!
"May God give you of the dew of heaven
and of the fatness of the earth
and plenty of grain and wine." Gen. 27:28 ESV
"וְיִֽתֶּן־לְךָ֙ הָאֱלֹהִ֔ים מִטַּל֙ הַשָּׁמַ֔יִם וּמִשְׁמַנֵּ֖י הָאָ֑רֶץ וְרֹ֥ב דָּגָ֖ן וְתִירֹֽשׁ׃" Gen. 27:28
Please note how God gives wine, but it is the "new" wine, or sweet grape juice, not the fermented stuff, which is like something gone bad.
For that matter, from a theological point of view, the Israelites then (Hebrews today) were required to get rid of every speck of yeast raised bread to celebrate the Passover. The same organism that makes raised bread, is another similar yeast to that used to ferment beer and wine. The Egyptians drank beer as the ordinary drink, but did God like yeast? My thought is Paul's words about yeast are rather conclusive:
"A little leaven leavens the whole lump." Gal. 5:9 ESV
And this from a chapter about Christian liberty and love and walking in the Spirit. Why would you want to eat fermented grape juice, the old wine, when you can have the new wine?
"Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved.” Matt. 9:17
I once talked with a pastor about drinking. He noted that liquor was often referred to as "spirits". So alcoholic wine or any other alcoholic beverage is sort of an "unholy spirit." He said he preferred to be filled with the REAL thing - the Holy Spirit, which among other things, gives us the fruit of joy!
If you are relying upon alcohol for your joy, you are looking in all the wrong places. Jesus Christ is the place we need to find our rest, and our joy in, not yeast fermented beverages!
"Don’t be drunk with wine, which will ruin your life, but be filled with the Spirit." Eph. 5:18 ERV
As for the Greek, it is hard to say what kind of beverage it is, I admit, since there is only one word oinos (οἶνος)and it is used interchangeably for fresh grape juice and fermented wine. It is a reflection of culture that the Hebrews (God's people) distinguished between the two, and the pagan Greeks did not!
"It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble." Romans 14:21 ESV
"καλὸν τὸ μὴ φαγεῖν κρέα μηδὲ πιεῖν οἶνον μηδὲ ἐν ᾧ ὁ ἀδελφός σου προσκόπτει ἢ σκανδαλίζεται ἢ ἀσθενεῖ·" Romans 14:21 Greek
Since alcohol has caused so much damage, from broken marriages to destroyed lives, and is a huge factor in fatal car crashes, perhaps as Christians, we should be conformed to God, and not drink, rather than conforming to the world i this issue.
CDC - Impaired Driving Facts - Motor Vehicle Safety - Injury Center
31% of all traffic related deaths were in alcohol impaired crashes, 17% of which were children 0-14 years, with 30 people dying PER DAY in the US involving an alcohol-impaired driver, with an annual cost to alcohol related crashes totally more that $51 billion in the US alone.
MADD - Statistics
This death by alcohol affects the innocent, the rich, the poor, the married, the single and it could happen to anyone tomorrow. Not because you have had an alcoholic beverage, but because our society condones and endorses it. As Christians, we need to stand united against this scourge and stop the damage it has caused in our society.
(Nothing worse than losing a child to a drunk driver! Maybe we should stop worrying about homosexuals, when or how we should be baptized, and seriously consider what the early Christian Temperance people were saying about alcohol, even in an age when cars did not drive fast, nor were they usually in the hands of drunk male 21-24 year olds, the largest group of people to drive drunk. (23.4%) While prohibition doesn't work, it is obvious, there has to be a way to stand against this horrible manifestation of evil in our world. )
"Truly my soul finds rest in God;
my salvation comes from him.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Truly he is my rock and my salvation;
he is my fortress, I will never be shaken." Psalm 62:1-2
A few years after I was saved, I heard a lot of talk and controversy about this topic of old wine, new wine. And how it was ok to drink, just socially, not to drunkenness. Well, not to be a stumbling block to others, I got out my Strong's concordance, because in those days, I did not know Hebrew, nor have the resources. But an interesting pattern emerged.
In Hebrew, every time the word "wine" was used for holy joy, or for something to do with God, the Holy Spirit, the non-alcoholic beverage word was used.
Every time the word "wine" was used for drunkenness or intoxication, it was always the word yayin, (הַיַּ֖יִן ) "the wine."
"[SUP]21 [/SUP]He drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent." Gen. 9:21 ESV
"וַיֵּ֥שְׁתְּ מִן־הַיַּ֖יִן וַיִּשְׁכָּ֑ר וַיִּתְגַּ֖ל בְּתֹ֥וךְ אָהֳלֹֽה ׃" Gen. 9:21 Hebrew
"When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him," Gen.9:24. ESV
"וַיִּ֥יקֶץ נֹ֖חַ מִיֵּינֹ֑ו וַיֵּ֕דַע אֵ֛ת אֲשֶׁר־עָ֥שָׂה־לֹ֖ו בְּנֹ֥ו הַקָּטָֽן׃" Gen. 9:24 Hebrew
Please note this is the FIRST time wine of any sort was mentioned, and it occurred after the flood. This leaves me to speculate that alcoholic wine was result of the flood, perhaps yeast coming up from the "fountains of the deep," where they had been hiding.
And it is interesting, that God gave Noah and his family permission to eat meat after the flood, he never gave them permission to get drunk. Yayin occurs 136 times in the Old Testament, and as I recall there was only one or two incidents where the use of the word was not totally negative.
The other word used in the Old Testament for "wine" is tiyrosh, (וְתִירֹֽש). This contains the little word "rosh" which means beginning or new as in Rosh HaShanah. (Happy New Year in Hebrew) Thus, the NEW wine, or as Strong's notes "the sense of expulsion, fresh grape juice, (as in just squeezed out), new, sweet wine. It occurs 34 times, and always in a positive sense, and associated with God!
"May God give you of the dew of heaven
and of the fatness of the earth
and plenty of grain and wine." Gen. 27:28 ESV
"וְיִֽתֶּן־לְךָ֙ הָאֱלֹהִ֔ים מִטַּל֙ הַשָּׁמַ֔יִם וּמִשְׁמַנֵּ֖י הָאָ֑רֶץ וְרֹ֥ב דָּגָ֖ן וְתִירֹֽשׁ׃" Gen. 27:28
Please note how God gives wine, but it is the "new" wine, or sweet grape juice, not the fermented stuff, which is like something gone bad.
For that matter, from a theological point of view, the Israelites then (Hebrews today) were required to get rid of every speck of yeast raised bread to celebrate the Passover. The same organism that makes raised bread, is another similar yeast to that used to ferment beer and wine. The Egyptians drank beer as the ordinary drink, but did God like yeast? My thought is Paul's words about yeast are rather conclusive:
"A little leaven leavens the whole lump." Gal. 5:9 ESV
And this from a chapter about Christian liberty and love and walking in the Spirit. Why would you want to eat fermented grape juice, the old wine, when you can have the new wine?
"Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved.” Matt. 9:17
I once talked with a pastor about drinking. He noted that liquor was often referred to as "spirits". So alcoholic wine or any other alcoholic beverage is sort of an "unholy spirit." He said he preferred to be filled with the REAL thing - the Holy Spirit, which among other things, gives us the fruit of joy!
If you are relying upon alcohol for your joy, you are looking in all the wrong places. Jesus Christ is the place we need to find our rest, and our joy in, not yeast fermented beverages!
"Don’t be drunk with wine, which will ruin your life, but be filled with the Spirit." Eph. 5:18 ERV
As for the Greek, it is hard to say what kind of beverage it is, I admit, since there is only one word oinos (οἶνος)and it is used interchangeably for fresh grape juice and fermented wine. It is a reflection of culture that the Hebrews (God's people) distinguished between the two, and the pagan Greeks did not!
"It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble." Romans 14:21 ESV
"καλὸν τὸ μὴ φαγεῖν κρέα μηδὲ πιεῖν οἶνον μηδὲ ἐν ᾧ ὁ ἀδελφός σου προσκόπτει ἢ σκανδαλίζεται ἢ ἀσθενεῖ·" Romans 14:21 Greek
Since alcohol has caused so much damage, from broken marriages to destroyed lives, and is a huge factor in fatal car crashes, perhaps as Christians, we should be conformed to God, and not drink, rather than conforming to the world i this issue.
CDC - Impaired Driving Facts - Motor Vehicle Safety - Injury Center
31% of all traffic related deaths were in alcohol impaired crashes, 17% of which were children 0-14 years, with 30 people dying PER DAY in the US involving an alcohol-impaired driver, with an annual cost to alcohol related crashes totally more that $51 billion in the US alone.
MADD - Statistics
This death by alcohol affects the innocent, the rich, the poor, the married, the single and it could happen to anyone tomorrow. Not because you have had an alcoholic beverage, but because our society condones and endorses it. As Christians, we need to stand united against this scourge and stop the damage it has caused in our society.
(Nothing worse than losing a child to a drunk driver! Maybe we should stop worrying about homosexuals, when or how we should be baptized, and seriously consider what the early Christian Temperance people were saying about alcohol, even in an age when cars did not drive fast, nor were they usually in the hands of drunk male 21-24 year olds, the largest group of people to drive drunk. (23.4%) While prohibition doesn't work, it is obvious, there has to be a way to stand against this horrible manifestation of evil in our world. )
Messiah turned water into wine at the request of his mother. John 2:1-11
If you are asserting that "Jesus" didn't drink, so therefore you don't drink, you're wrong. He did drink, and he made it possible for others to drink. If you follow the logic through, he condoned their drinking.
If you're asserting that Messiah didn't drink, you are wrong. Messiah tells us to follow the Passover (Pesach) and the drink wine and break the bread in remembrance of his sacrifice. Luke 17:14-23 It's a COMMAND to drink the wine in remembrance of him. It's a directive.
If alcohol is a stumbling block for you, obviously Messiah would not throw a stumbling block in your path. Let's assume that recovering alcoholics are off the table for this. Outside of that, if your heart truly desires to obey Messiah and live according to the word, then you must step outside of the viewpoint taught from the pulpits and really read what's in the word for yourself.
Understand, I'm not talking about puking, falling down drunkenness. I read it that the OP is not talking about "drunkenness" either. I am talking about LITERALLY obeying the commandments of Messiah in which he says, "Do this in remembrance of me."
My first Bible I ever got when I was six-years-old has the words of Messiah written in red. I used to go through and just read the red parts so that I was able to see just the words of Messiah. It's a different set of books when you read it that way. I see his words as directives and commands. I see him as the bright shining King of the Revelation and Daniel, and to me, everything he said was for me. One day his throne will be brought down, and the whole world will worship at his Passover table, and when we do, he will drink wine with us, and break the bread with us. Amen.
If you are asserting that "Jesus" didn't drink, so therefore you don't drink, you're wrong. He did drink, and he made it possible for others to drink. If you follow the logic through, he condoned their drinking.
If you're asserting that Messiah didn't drink, you are wrong. Messiah tells us to follow the Passover (Pesach) and the drink wine and break the bread in remembrance of his sacrifice. Luke 17:14-23 It's a COMMAND to drink the wine in remembrance of him. It's a directive.
If alcohol is a stumbling block for you, obviously Messiah would not throw a stumbling block in your path. Let's assume that recovering alcoholics are off the table for this. Outside of that, if your heart truly desires to obey Messiah and live according to the word, then you must step outside of the viewpoint taught from the pulpits and really read what's in the word for yourself.
Understand, I'm not talking about puking, falling down drunkenness. I read it that the OP is not talking about "drunkenness" either. I am talking about LITERALLY obeying the commandments of Messiah in which he says, "Do this in remembrance of me."
My first Bible I ever got when I was six-years-old has the words of Messiah written in red. I used to go through and just read the red parts so that I was able to see just the words of Messiah. It's a different set of books when you read it that way. I see his words as directives and commands. I see him as the bright shining King of the Revelation and Daniel, and to me, everything he said was for me. One day his throne will be brought down, and the whole world will worship at his Passover table, and when we do, he will drink wine with us, and break the bread with us. Amen.