Jehovah's Witness please.
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This is a questions for all the churches. How important is biblical doctrine? Have you noticed the knee jerk reactions on cc to the words "law" "works" "obedience" "Jew" and such?
Scripture says that we need to watch for two things: How Christ is seen and explained, and how is love shown in a church.
Scripture says that we need to watch for two things: How Christ is seen and explained, and how is love shown in a church.
I noticed no JW's answered your question. Since I am familiar with Jehovah's Witnesses teaching I shall attempt to answer your question.
Firstly, it's clear that the book of Revelation is a book full of symbols and of figurative (not literal) language. So when other parts of the Bible say that the condition of the dead is like that of an unconscious state, then it would be reasonable to conclude that what was written in revelation 14:11 was figurative. For instance look at the description of the dead in the following verses.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) "...For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all..."
(Psalm 146:4) "...His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish..."
So when considering the above what could Rev 14:11 possibly mean? Well the first important thing to note is that the thing that "ascends forever" is NOT the torment but rather the smoke, so would could this mean? Firstly reads the below verse of what God says regarding the nation Edom.
(Isaiah 34:9,10) "...[God said] "Her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur, and her land must become as burning pitch. By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her."
Now is the smoke of Edom still ascending today? Of course not, what that term actually symbolizes is that of complete destruction, everlasting destruction, it means the people of Edom would never resurface again, thus their smoke would rise forever never to be extinguished.When a house burns down, smoke keeps coming from the ashes for some time after the flames have died down, providing onlookers with evidence that there has been a destructive conflagration. Even today God's people remember the lesson to be learned from the destruction of Edom. In this way `the smoke of her burning' is still ascending in a symbolic way.
Likewise when Revelation 14:11 talks of the smoke accesnding forever, it holds that same symbolic meaning, that of everlasting destruction, the smoke of Satan and his minions destruction will rise forever symbolizing they will be gone forever in the second death which holds no resurrection hope.
This same terminology can be found in jude 7 which says "So too Sod′om and Go·mor′rah and the cities about them, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire." However, if you were to go to the ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah today would they still be on fire today since the verse says they had "everlasting fire", of course they wouldn't, again the statement was symbolic, just like that of Rev 14:11.
So although Rev 14:11 at fave-value may seem like its talking about a literal burning Hell, it is not. With a little bit of Bible study and scriptural reasoning it is clear to see that Satan and his minions destruction will be no different as previous biblical examples, such as Edom and Sodom and Gomorrah, and that everlasting smoke denotes a everlasting destruction and not a fiery hell.
Firstly, it's clear that the book of Revelation is a book full of symbols and of figurative (not literal) language. So when other parts of the Bible say that the condition of the dead is like that of an unconscious state, then it would be reasonable to conclude that what was written in revelation 14:11 was figurative. For instance look at the description of the dead in the following verses.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) "...For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all..."
(Psalm 146:4) "...His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish..."
So when considering the above what could Rev 14:11 possibly mean? Well the first important thing to note is that the thing that "ascends forever" is NOT the torment but rather the smoke, so would could this mean? Firstly reads the below verse of what God says regarding the nation Edom.
(Isaiah 34:9,10) "...[God said] "Her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur, and her land must become as burning pitch. By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her."
Now is the smoke of Edom still ascending today? Of course not, what that term actually symbolizes is that of complete destruction, everlasting destruction, it means the people of Edom would never resurface again, thus their smoke would rise forever never to be extinguished.When a house burns down, smoke keeps coming from the ashes for some time after the flames have died down, providing onlookers with evidence that there has been a destructive conflagration. Even today God's people remember the lesson to be learned from the destruction of Edom. In this way `the smoke of her burning' is still ascending in a symbolic way.
Likewise when Revelation 14:11 talks of the smoke accesnding forever, it holds that same symbolic meaning, that of everlasting destruction, the smoke of Satan and his minions destruction will rise forever symbolizing they will be gone forever in the second death which holds no resurrection hope.
This same terminology can be found in jude 7 which says "So too Sod′om and Go·mor′rah and the cities about them, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire." However, if you were to go to the ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah today would they still be on fire today since the verse says they had "everlasting fire", of course they wouldn't, again the statement was symbolic, just like that of Rev 14:11.
So although Rev 14:11 at fave-value may seem like its talking about a literal burning Hell, it is not. With a little bit of Bible study and scriptural reasoning it is clear to see that Satan and his minions destruction will be no different as previous biblical examples, such as Edom and Sodom and Gomorrah, and that everlasting smoke denotes a everlasting destruction and not a fiery hell.
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Those are two good questions. Firstly it is very clear to work out what is symbolic in the Bible and what is literal, for example read Rev 21:1 regarding the meaning sea, then look at the meaning of sea in Isaiah 57:20.
(Revelation 21:1) "...And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more..."
(Isaiah 57:20) “...But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down..."
Now a reader like you might read Rev 21:1 and conclude after Armageddon that the sea will be gone, yet from Isaiah we can see that the writer is conveying not a literal sea, but the 'symbolic sea of wicked mankind' on the earth. We can see this again with Jesus as our example this time, in Rev 14:1 it reads;
"...And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father..." (Revelation 14:1)
Now again, a reader like you might conclude that a literal Lamb is standing on the mount along with a hundred and forty-four thousand persons, but yet other scriptures reveal the following;
(John 1:29) "...The next day he beheld Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!.."
(1 Peter 1:19) "...But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, even Christ’s..."
Jesus was called the lamb for a symbolic reason. Lamb's have long been chosen by God as suitable sacrifices to him due to their defenseless and innocent stature. Jesus being perfect and innocent could be likened to one, due to those reasons and that he would become the greatest sacrifice for us.
Now why have I shown all this, because I'm trying to show you that we can work out if scripture is symbolic or not by interpreting scripture with scripture, as I've just shown. So when it comes to Rev 14:11 we can see that it MUST be symbolic because if it was literal then it would mean a literal fiery Hell exist, and if a literal fiery Hell exist then the Bible contradicts itself since the Bible makes clear that "the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all" (Ecclesiastes 9:5) The Bible can't teach that your'e unconscious when you die but at the same time suffering in Hell, since both those teaching contradict each other.
So to sum up, it's clear to see that Rev 14:11 is symbolic because other scripture explains the true meaning behind it (Eternal smoke) along with the fact it can't be literal otherwise the Bible would be contradictory.
If you haven't already gathered from the above text, my answer is no, I do not.
Nowhere in scripture does it state that when you die you go to Hell, that is merely a lie taught by mainstream Christianity. Jesus himself when he spoke likened death to sleep, much like Eccl 9:5 which I've already showed you, look at what he said.
(John 11:11-13) "...He [Jesus] said... “Laz′a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.” Therefore the disciples said to him: “Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well.” Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep..."
Notice Jesus likened death to sleep so much so that his own disciples thought he was talking about sleep as in rest, when in fact he was talking about Death! This also raises the question, if Lazarus was in Heaven then why would Jesus bring him back to earth. Furthermore why didn't Lazarus mention anything about a beautiful heaven or horrible Hell? The reason, because he was simply sleeping in Death.
Moreover other scripture states "For the wages sin pays is death" (Romans 6:23) If the wages we pay for our sins is death, then why would God punish us further and send us to Hell!? Would loving Father threaten to ground for a week for failing to listen to him, but then in fact ground you for a year when you do slip up be a loving and just-full Father? of course not. Then how could God be loving and just-full if he says the wages for sin is death, but then instead torment us in Hell forever!
You'll find that in all the places people like to say it talks about Hell are no more than illustration's which symbolic nature can all be explained by context of the going on of the time of the writing.
A question you should ponder my friend, is if both "body and soul" are destroyed in Hell then what is left there to torment? Could Hell merely mean what the definition of the word actually means, the grave? I think so.
(Matthew 10:28) "...And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell..."
(Revelation 21:1) "...And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more..."
(Isaiah 57:20) “...But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down..."
Now a reader like you might read Rev 21:1 and conclude after Armageddon that the sea will be gone, yet from Isaiah we can see that the writer is conveying not a literal sea, but the 'symbolic sea of wicked mankind' on the earth. We can see this again with Jesus as our example this time, in Rev 14:1 it reads;
"...And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father..." (Revelation 14:1)
Now again, a reader like you might conclude that a literal Lamb is standing on the mount along with a hundred and forty-four thousand persons, but yet other scriptures reveal the following;
(John 1:29) "...The next day he beheld Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!.."
(1 Peter 1:19) "...But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, even Christ’s..."
Jesus was called the lamb for a symbolic reason. Lamb's have long been chosen by God as suitable sacrifices to him due to their defenseless and innocent stature. Jesus being perfect and innocent could be likened to one, due to those reasons and that he would become the greatest sacrifice for us.
Now why have I shown all this, because I'm trying to show you that we can work out if scripture is symbolic or not by interpreting scripture with scripture, as I've just shown. So when it comes to Rev 14:11 we can see that it MUST be symbolic because if it was literal then it would mean a literal fiery Hell exist, and if a literal fiery Hell exist then the Bible contradicts itself since the Bible makes clear that "the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all" (Ecclesiastes 9:5) The Bible can't teach that your'e unconscious when you die but at the same time suffering in Hell, since both those teaching contradict each other.
So to sum up, it's clear to see that Rev 14:11 is symbolic because other scripture explains the true meaning behind it (Eternal smoke) along with the fact it can't be literal otherwise the Bible would be contradictory.
If you haven't already gathered from the above text, my answer is no, I do not.
Nowhere in scripture does it state that when you die you go to Hell, that is merely a lie taught by mainstream Christianity. Jesus himself when he spoke likened death to sleep, much like Eccl 9:5 which I've already showed you, look at what he said.
(John 11:11-13) "...He [Jesus] said... “Laz′a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.” Therefore the disciples said to him: “Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well.” Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep..."
Notice Jesus likened death to sleep so much so that his own disciples thought he was talking about sleep as in rest, when in fact he was talking about Death! This also raises the question, if Lazarus was in Heaven then why would Jesus bring him back to earth. Furthermore why didn't Lazarus mention anything about a beautiful heaven or horrible Hell? The reason, because he was simply sleeping in Death.
Moreover other scripture states "For the wages sin pays is death" (Romans 6:23) If the wages we pay for our sins is death, then why would God punish us further and send us to Hell!? Would loving Father threaten to ground for a week for failing to listen to him, but then in fact ground you for a year when you do slip up be a loving and just-full Father? of course not. Then how could God be loving and just-full if he says the wages for sin is death, but then instead torment us in Hell forever!
You'll find that in all the places people like to say it talks about Hell are no more than illustration's which symbolic nature can all be explained by context of the going on of the time of the writing.
A question you should ponder my friend, is if both "body and soul" are destroyed in Hell then what is left there to torment? Could Hell merely mean what the definition of the word actually means, the grave? I think so.
(Matthew 10:28) "...And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell..."
NWL means New World Living, as in their translation of the Bible. So you are talking to an authentic JW here.
One good way to get rid of them, is to bring out a thick study Bible, some theology books and Greek language books. I did that, told them I was in Seminary, and they asked if I wanted to be on the "Do not call list" At that time, I was overwhelmed with my courses, so I said "yes!" I kind of miss them, because now I have the materials to win them to Christ.
So just ask to be put on it if you don't want to be bothered, and make sure you bring quite a few Bibles to the door. I have a really good answer for John 1:1 from the Greek, if anyone is interested in me writing it out by hand. It conclusively proves that the NWL Bible is wrong, and so are the JW's and that Jesus is God!
Not "a god", as in polytheism.
One good way to get rid of them, is to bring out a thick study Bible, some theology books and Greek language books. I did that, told them I was in Seminary, and they asked if I wanted to be on the "Do not call list" At that time, I was overwhelmed with my courses, so I said "yes!" I kind of miss them, because now I have the materials to win them to Christ.
So just ask to be put on it if you don't want to be bothered, and make sure you bring quite a few Bibles to the door. I have a really good answer for John 1:1 from the Greek, if anyone is interested in me writing it out by hand. It conclusively proves that the NWL Bible is wrong, and so are the JW's and that Jesus is God!
Not "a god", as in polytheism.
I'm not to sure if your'e being entirely honest Angela53510, firstly you say you go to seminary and talk as if you know a lot about JW's but yet you don't even know what Bible Jw's use. We use the New world Translation not the New World Translations, if fact I don't think the New World living translation exist, I've surely never heard or can find record of it, for someone who goes to seminary to not know what translations do and do not exist is very peculiar. Furthermore In all my years I've never heard of a Jw's to ask someone if they want to go on the "do not call list", nor is it their custom, so again this seems very out of the ordinary.
I however cannot rightfully judge and you may well be telling the truth, which if you are then you have my apologies.
Jw's do not rely on a single Bible either, I myself use over ten different versions, even here on CC when I get into a debate quote from versions other than the NWT. For a Jw to use a different bible version is not a problem for them. Also proving that the NWT translation is an inaccurate version does not prove our teachings are wrong, since our teaching aren't based on the NWT. We only started using the NWT in the 1950', before that we used the KJV and our teaching have remained basically the same since then, so expressing your view on the NWT proves nothing.
I'll tell you what though, if you can answer a series of question's which require a one worded answer about the divinity of Jesus, I'll study word for word your conclusive prove that the NWT is inaccurate. What do you say?
I however cannot rightfully judge and you may well be telling the truth, which if you are then you have my apologies.
Jw's do not rely on a single Bible either, I myself use over ten different versions, even here on CC when I get into a debate quote from versions other than the NWT. For a Jw to use a different bible version is not a problem for them. Also proving that the NWT translation is an inaccurate version does not prove our teachings are wrong, since our teaching aren't based on the NWT. We only started using the NWT in the 1950', before that we used the KJV and our teaching have remained basically the same since then, so expressing your view on the NWT proves nothing.
I'll tell you what though, if you can answer a series of question's which require a one worded answer about the divinity of Jesus, I'll study word for word your conclusive prove that the NWT is inaccurate. What do you say?